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Title: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 14th, 2011, 12:27pm I am a newbie on the site, so please be kind to me - I may sound as though I know what I'm saying, but I'm no techie :-/ I am the proud owner of an Ultima 1995 24v 3L Slate Blue Cosworth Auto Estate, 87K miles on clock. I've been told by two people that she is a rare model. She is known as the Grand Duchess Nadia, and is in excellent condition, both inside and out, according to an engineer, apart from some very minor things, and the fact that the Economy Clutch doesn't disengage when it should. I have paid out a lot to rectify some defects when she was bought, but have been told the clutch is going to be very costly :'( Thank you for any thoughts you may have. I would value some advice please as to whether I keep her and pay out or cut my losses and sell the gorgeous old lady for scrap :-[ |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Matt on Nov 14th, 2011, 4:31pm Thats a new one to me, whos told you its not disengaging? Have you had an OBD2 scan on it? The way the system should work it iy will hold the lower gears for longer in sport mode so you get the full power of the engine. The auto box on the scorpio are electronic controlled, you sure your garage isnt getting confused with the earlier granada which most do Is you car changing up smoothly or thumping into gear? Thumping into gear is a completly different problem |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 14th, 2011, 5:01pm My husband is at work so I will try to explain. The car runs smoothly with no problems on the motorway but when we slow down to stop, or go round an island, it judders to a halt. If we wait a moment it will then start up again and draws away with some juddering and with a seeming lack of power for a few yards. We have tried a lot of the simple things to see if it could be cured, but eventually took it to a specialist/engineer who found that the sump was full of metal shavings. It was he who said that the economy clutch wasn't disengaging. I don't know what an OBD2 scan is, but we did have a computer type scan done on it some weeks ago but I can't remember what that showed up. We have also replaced the idle flow control valve (?). I'm not a driver so have to rely on what I am told and what I notice. |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Mike H on Nov 14th, 2011, 5:38pm "judders to a halt" ~ do you mean the engine stops? General question for the other members ;D ~ "economy clutch" ~ is this the torque converter lock for overdrive? Yep OBD2 is a computer scan, the codes could be useful if you've got them. |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Matt on Nov 14th, 2011, 6:10pm Hey again You've come to the right place now so hopefully well get you going again before you know it ;) Have a read of this page http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cattle.htm If you have any of the symptoms let us know Finding metal in the sump isnt the best news, this will sound odd but.do you know what colour the metal was? It could be from the gears or it could simple be some one put it in park with the car still moving. |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 14th, 2011, 6:26pm @ Mike As we slow down the engine judders for a few times and then stops. The details from the first Ford Dealer who looked at the car in September do not mention them having used a computer scan, although they said they had. Would they have charged for it? They road tested the car three times but the cutting out didn't happen at any time. They cleaned the speed control valve. Noted the gear change stiff due to age. All components secure. Brake judder noted. New pad set and disc, alternator and two driving belts Pas fluid topped up Hope this helps. |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Matt on Nov 14th, 2011, 6:48pm Quote:
Shouldnt be stiff, the linkage rods may have come lose on the nut at some point and not reset correctly, or the pivot is seizing up, need to check both as this could explain that and the metal in the sump if the gearbox is not being correctly selected by the shifter Where are you located btw there are members on here ( including myself ;D) who dont mind popping over to lend a hand |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 14th, 2011, 6:52pm @ Matt I found the page very interesting. Only being a passenger, obviously I don't know how the car feels when been driven. To me it seems more that we have kangaroo petrol than cattle grids before the engine cuts out at every roundabout/traffic lights :-/ I do so hope you can sort us out. I've spent a lot of money on Nadia and at present we have a hire car. I can get my husband to phone up our techie to ask about the colour of the metal shavings. This car has been really well looked after for the majority of its life, living in Cornwall with one owner. My son thinks that it was owned by a Ford exec, and I've been told it has more bells and whistles than normal. |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 14th, 2011, 7:01pm @ Matt Neither my husband or myself know much about cars, especially automatics, so any help would be gratefully accepted. We live in the Midlands, halfway between Lichfield and Stafford. I have to crow a little in as much I can do something most modern drivers don't know about - I can double de-clutch, even though I don't drive. :D |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Matt on Nov 14th, 2011, 10:37pm Your not to far from me then, im in the sunny city of b'ham, Do all the gears work and select in good time? Just wondering if its a fueling issue now lol Matt |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Mike H on Nov 14th, 2011, 10:49pm Couple of things spring to mind ~ Re the metal filings, we are right in thinking it's in the gearbox sump? Not the engine sump? Yes the drive selector linkage pivot can seize up, this does need checking out. In many cases past (there are lots of examples on this forum), what appears to be a mechanical problem is actually electrical, because the engine management computer also controls the gearbox, so a wiring problem can cause weird things to happen. Typical faults to wiring are insulation missing due to being near something hot (e.g. exhaust) or simple wear and tear (chafing), causing short circuits, also water damage. There are various sensors that the computer needs to know what is going on, if a sensor is faulty or the wiring for it, again weird things can happen, lots of instances of that on here too. That is why an OBD (On Board Diagnostics) error code reading is useful, as the computer stores error codes if it's found a problem, since it tests many of the sensors. So there may be other things causing the lurching and engine stopping which may be entirely electrical related due to wiring gone bad. Doesn't take much! There is the infamous recent topic about the 24V that wouldn't idle, took us 6 months to find out it was just a corroded plug on the computer housing! I am also reminded of the number of flexible vacuum pipes, which can have a leak, there can be a bit of an issue with these on the 24V engine I am given to believe, from what else I've read here but can't remember the exact circumstances. As this is an automatic transmission you do not have a "clutch" in the strictest sense, it is a hydraulic torque converter where the gearbox oil (automatic transmission fluid - ATF) is thrown from the driving half (coupled to engine) against the driven half (coupled to gearbox), no actual mechanical parts touch, if there's a problem with this action new fluid will sort it out. There is however a mechanical clutch that locks the torque converter together when cruising in top gear (overdrive), for the reason this means no slippage therefore best fuel economy is achieved. This is released as soon as the speed slows, i.e. you take your foot off the accelerator pedal, so the torque converter can revert to fluid drive. I'm guessing this is what "economy clutch" means so it's possible this is where the bits of metal have come from if this has definitely gone wrong. If the worst comes to the worst and the transmission is genuinely kaput we've got an expert on here (Dave2302) also a working 2nd hand replacement would be the simplest fix. But other working parts and the electrical wiring needs to be checked out as well to make sure there isn't something else contributing to the behaviour. I mention this only 'cause a while ago I was considering I might need to change the box on mine but it turned out I just needed a new air flow sensor and filters, and the gearbox problem went away! |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Tompion on Nov 14th, 2011, 11:57pm on 11/14/11 at 22:49:08, Mike H wrote:
There are clutches in an auto |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Matt on Nov 15th, 2011, 9:44am Yep but more commonly known as brake bands ;) Do us a quick favor, unplug the maf sensor and take it for a drive ( its the device just after the air box) if there id no difference the maf if dead or very dirty, mafs cause all sorts of odd and bizzar issues The vac pipes mike mentions are a known issue on the 24v, if you take off the engine cover and start it up, if they have failed you will hear a hissing/sucking sound |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 15th, 2011, 10:40am We have found a printout in the car of the OBD2 our techie/engineer did. Not being mechanically minded, my husband misunderstood what he was telling us. This is what it says - sob! P0131 - HO2S11 Circuit out of range low voltage P0138 - HO2S12 Circuit high voltage P1131 - Lack of HO2S11 Switch Sensor indicates Lean P01131 - TCC System Performance. Torque converter slip is greater than expected. He fixed what he could - a solenoid, reversing switch (controls wing mirror and reversing lights) and realigned the second gear setting. The metal filings were steel. The transmission is shot. Now what can we do? She's a gorgeous car but we don't have the knowledge or facilities to DIY, plus we need a car to get to work in. :'( |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Dave2302 on Nov 15th, 2011, 10:55am I'm afraid it is gearbox rebuild time, sounds to me like the "Lock Up" plate is breaking up in the Torque Converter. The metal swarf you describe has got in the valve block and is causing the converter clutch to stick on as you pull up. The only answer is a rebuilt Auto Box and Torque Converter, the oil cooler will also need a good flush so the swarf doesnt get into a new gearbox. Expect to pay £800 - £900 for a decent guaranteed job all in. Alternative is a "known good" second hand unit, which will be considerably cheaper than the above, especially if you can get someone knowledgeable to fit it at "mates rates". Don't forget to flush that cooler though !! I may have a decent gearbox and converter in the next few weeks, from a car I am going to break up, but I haven't driven it yet, so will report back to you when I have ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 15th, 2011, 11:12am Thanks for your offer Dave, I will bear it in mind. We will have to think about our options as we have spent a lot of money on our car, getting her up to an excellent condition, and another £1k is a lot. |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Tompion on Nov 15th, 2011, 11:35am on 11/15/11 at 09:44:53, Matt wrote:
The brake bands are not the clutches do a search for clutch in this PDF: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/autotrans/A4LDEoverhaul.pdf |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Matt on Nov 15th, 2011, 11:39am im pretty sure ive got a 24v converter still, i scrapped most of them but found another one! tipical i had 2 auto boxes aswell the one was perfect but had no interest so broke the boxes, weighed in the cases and gave the guts to dave ::) its problems like this i converted my 24v to manual trans |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 15th, 2011, 11:51am You are all being so kind, I don't know what to say. :-[ Not being mechanically minded, we don't really know which way to proceed at present. We do have a garage owner who might do the work for us as he loves old cars, but we will have to check out his prices. We are still left with the need of another car to get hubby to work. Decisions, decisions. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Mike H on Nov 15th, 2011, 2:08pm Tompion & Matt you're both right, I did go on to mention the lock-up clutch ;D there are other multi-plate wet clutches as well. OK I'll go with what Dave says |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Mike H on Nov 15th, 2011, 2:11pm on 11/15/11 at 10:40:50, Jeanagh wrote:
Yep a couple of oxygen (lambda) sensors in the exhaust have gone toes up, not unusual, it happens ;D Quote:
That would make sense if lock-up clutch has disintegrated |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 17th, 2011, 11:12am Gentlemen, I am so torn at the moment. I am looking at that beautiful car just sitting there with £1k worth of repairs needed, and the hire car sitting in front of her, and must make the decision of what to do. I have spent hundreds on putting things right, apart from the bumpers which need some attention but we need a car right now. The engineer said she is in excellent condtion, and she is crying out for someone to take care of her. I couldn't bear for her to be sold for scrap. Is there someone on the Forum who might be interested? I can't believe that I am so attached to her. never felt like this about a car before :'( |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Mike H on Nov 17th, 2011, 9:34pm Well to me that says find a good second hand box which will keep it going a few more years (?) |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 23rd, 2011, 10:47pm Gentleman, you have been really good to me and done your best to help. I have spent the last fortnight trying to get a mechanic organised, but, after hiring a car for a month, a decision has been made. I have decided that my lovely Scorpio will have to go. We have bought another car and can't afford to keep both insured. :'( Nadia really is too good to go for scrap. Her bodywork is in very good condition, as is the inside. There's 87k on the clock, not a lot for an N reg. A lot of work has been done on her. Just this one big problem. Is anyone interested in her or should I put her up for sale? |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Simmo on Nov 24th, 2011, 7:28am That's really sad to hear. I suggest you put a post in Cars for Sale and indicate where you are in Staffordshire. It really is a shame to see these cars go. :( |
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Title: Re: Advice re Economy Clutch please Post by Jeanagh on Nov 25th, 2011, 7:50pm I do hope someone who cares will take care of Nadia as I'm about to put her up for sale :-/ |
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