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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> 24V gearbox removal
        
(Message started by: Jeff on Jul 16th, 2012, 12:35pm)
Title: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 16th, 2012, 12:35pm
Has anyone removed a gearbox from a 24V? Had a look at the manual and it looks a bit daunting - exhausts, driveshaft and starter all have to come out.
Just wondered what the job's like in practice. Suppose the first thing is to get the car jacked up to a decent height: easy if you have a lift ramp, which I don't.
And then 'remove so and so' bolt isn't always that straightforward, is it.
Anyone done it?
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 16th, 2012, 2:47pm
You mean this manual?

From: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/autotrans.htm

A4LDE 24V remove & install (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/autotrans/A4LDE24V.pdf) (PDF file)
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Matt on Jul 16th, 2012, 6:10pm
heya mate

why do you need to drop the box?

its a big job and not easy if you dont have a ramp. personally i would drop engine and gear box by dropping the front subframe, its much easiee to work on and 100 times easier to realign and bolt back together
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 17th, 2012, 7:19pm
Yes, I have the manual in paper form here too. As Matt says it certainly looks a big job.
I have a 24V with an intermittent fault whereby it suddenly drops out of drive for a short period of time (this varies, apparantly at random) and then continues. Not what you want on a junction or R/A/B. As I have some spare would-be donor cars I thought I might just swap it out, as no-one has been able to suggest any fixes. It might only be a solenoid, but I'm not au fait enough with these complex units to know, and I'm a bit sceptical about taking it to the trade. I envisage much sucking of air through teeth etc. However the job does rather look a bit of a campaign, so I think I will try and get advice.
Dropping the engine and unit would entail undoing all connections, but I understand the point re alignment. Could be a nightmare this one, couldn't it.
Good opportunity to clean the whole lot down though. Ha. There's me talking like I have spare time...
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 18th, 2012, 12:23pm
When you say "drop out", like it's gone into neutral?

Obvious questions time ~ ;D

1. What's the level / general state of the transmission fluid?

2. Depending on 1, have you considered fluid + filter change first? If not been done within living memory...

3. Are you getting flashing O/D light?
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Dave2302 on Jul 18th, 2012, 6:26pm
Breaking the exhaust down is the hardest part, but after that it's easy if you know auto's and have a ramp and a transmission jack.

However it needs proper diagnosis first, it may not be the box, may be electrical fault !!

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 18th, 2012, 9:36pm
Hi everyone. Yes, I'm all for trying to diagnose properly first.

Yes, as if it has dropped into neutral, which results in a 'spike' of revs until you get your foot off. Like missing a gear in a manual, although this happens on the cruise as it were, not going up through the gears, although it has happened at that time once or twice too. The fluid level was checked and found to be satisfactory: no alarming colours but it hasn't been changed to my knowledge. I guess I should do that as a matter of course, and do the filter at the same time. The cars not taxed at the mo, so will have to sort that too. How do I go about checking electrics?
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Dave2302 on Jul 19th, 2012, 3:48am
Okay, the only way to check the electrics is to have it code read with proper software that can actually read the transmission, and then also look at live data whilst driving it too.

Does this dropping out of gear happen when hot or cold or worse hot / cold ?

Full throttle, light throttle or off throttle ?

Also is it any particular gear 1st, 2nd , 3rd, 4th, etc ? that would help me to give you a decent diagnosis  ;)

If the fluid is not "Minging" then don't waste your money changing it atm  ;)

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 21st, 2012, 11:24am
Hello Dave, thanks for your reply. Indeed the fluid isn't minging as you put it ;D so I agree: leave alone. Having said that mind, it has prob never been changed. But it's not like engine oil, is it.
The drop out occurs only in top gear, once up and running (I'm not using the car at the moment so this is from memory) and under normal driving conditions, which I call 'cruise'. I don't drive madly...or badly I like to think! It'll do it on a long run - maybe - and then not again for a few journeys. Sometimes it's just once or twice, sometimes it'll really play up. No pleasure in that I can tell you. This is why I suspect electrical, rather than mechanical or hydraulic.
On the subject of diagnostics, exactly what should I ask for if I get the chance to have an OBD session?

Thanks again, it would be great to sort this.
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 21st, 2012, 4:04pm
1. I'll ask again if you don't mind, are you getting flashing O/D warning light? (green, top left of dashboard, "O/D"). I know they're not very bright at the best of times ;D

2. Prresume by the sound of things it's OK if you switch out the overdrive (green button on side of gear selector, "O/D" light permanently on), leaving bottom 3 ratios only (?).

3. If you don't know if fluid was ever changed or don't know how long ago, I would still consider having it done.

4. At risk of sounding like a scratched record, ;D this is spookily similar to my problem, couldn't hold top gear (overdrive) kept slipping gear up and down, almost as though a gearbox clutch was clapped out and slipping, what it was, in the end, MAF sensor was on its last legs, new MAF bought and installed, was like getting a new gearbox!

4b. therefore try cleaning the MAF sensor, see if that does anything to alleviate the symptoms. Instructions here:

Cleanig the MAF - solving overdrive problems (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cleanmaf.htm)

HTH

NB: the MAF (A.) weren't all that was wrong with it, also needed B. new air filter (filthy black), C. cat (too old or possibly wrecked by running too rich due to A. & B.), D. whole new exhaust excepting only the flexi pipe bit due to a hundredweight of soot in it (that's how heavy it felt like apparently lol ;D )
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by PJDavis on Jul 21st, 2012, 5:47pm
I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, because I didn't want to confuse issues.   I will say before I carry on that I'm having a spare Auto Gearbox and Converter re-built by a true professional  ;) Then getting it swapped over for the one that's currently in the car.

My car is a great driver, and I drive it as it should be driven.   I'm going through Avon ZV5 tyres on the rear in 15k miles, and not much more out of the front which will tell you's how I drive it!   I regularly have it on the red-line in the first three gears, there's plenty of wide-open quiet roads up here to do it on, as 'The Old Bear-Footer' will testify.   (I'm slow by his standards!)

The fluid is clean in my gearbox and I've changed it, there was a little bit of sludge when I changed the screen and oil, but after 100k miles I think that was to be expected.   Now my problem started about a year ago, just as you describe.   Driving along the road at a steady pace when all is warm, (the car doesn't do it cold) it's almost as if a ghost passenger has knocked the stick into neutral, then just a split second later stuck it back in drive.   This happens when the O/D light is showing or not.   The O/D light doesn't flash, and the speedo continues to read the road-speed steady.   This would maybe happen once or twice in a month, (I'm doing about 8k miles a year)   I tried to mentally note when it was happening, to see if there was a pattern, also fiddled about with the wires and sprayed lots of silicon-grease about the connectors, no-change.   I clean the MAF sensor regularly and had just done so before the latest incident about Ten days ago.   Driving along at a steady 70mph, and it dropped out of gear, then went straight back in, but for the first time ever it went down a second gear, so, it was in Top, dropped out, went back into Top, then briefly went down to Third, then straight back up to Top.   This happened in the space of about Five seconds and all with no throttle.   When I pressed on the accelerator, once I thought it had settled-down, instead of drive, it slipped back into Top like slipping a clutch!   It had never done that before, not the slipping bit or going down an extra gear.   A problem that my car has always had since I got it Four years ago, is a wee 'Flare' when changing between second and third.   Not every time, but if I've been driving the car hard, like full-bore overtaking and higher speeds, then when you come to a town and drive slower the flare always appears, again, only slight.   I have more recently discovered how to aggravate the dropping out of gear problem, quite by chance because it did it twice in succession for the first time about three weeks ago.   When going for a full bore overtake, once your well passed the cars and still in 'kickdown' take your foot off the throttle and brake sharply, it might not drop out of gear straight away, but almost guaranteed to do it in the next couple of miles.   I can only think it could be because of more pressure with the higher speeds and a lot more heat.

Since the last time it happened, when I decided it was time to bite the bullet and get it sorted properly, I've been driving the car gently, and returning better mpg, and it hasn't occurred again, but what's the fun in driving a fast car gently?   Another reason for spending the cash on getting it sorted is, the car has just gone through another MOT easily, so it's worth the money to me.   I also have a spare gearbox wiring-loom, that I have checked and repaired where necessary, aye and it was needing repaired in plenty of places!   It's now also been checked for continuity, so should be ok.   Even if it's a wiring problem with mine, I'll still change my gearbox, because it feels like a mechanical fault and I'll get a lovely new drive!    :D

hth
Peter
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 21st, 2012, 10:21pm
No, I don't think the O/D has anything to do with it. I drive the car pretty steadily, I'm a  bit of an old fart in that respect, so I enjoy longevity in my rear tyres ::). The point you make Mike is that if I switch top gear off, then maybe it will not do it...is that what you are getting at?
I sometimes do a run down to the south coast which is about a hundred miles and it might not occur until coming back. I use the green switch to assist in overtaking but otherwise don't usually touch it, but you might be on to something.
And I have cleaned the MAF on this one; although if you needed to replace yours Mike, maybe just cleaning isn't enough. How did you establish it needed replacement?
I moved the car today (and washed it, looks lovely now - dark aubergine, came up very nice) and noticed the gear selector felt very heavy. This is a bit of an aside (nothing to do with my drop out problem). I'm hoping the selector has simply dried up a bit due to lack of use for so long (over a year now). I must get a battery on it and run her up. The worst thing to do to a car is not use it. If I get it taxed and MOT'd then I can get using again. And after all this I think I will change the fluid and filter. Then I can re-assess the problem.
It's clear the systems on these cars are really quite complex, what with all the different criteria being analysed all the time. I wonder if it will be possible to keep them going as long as some of the 'classic' cars we have amongst us now, all simple suck and blow stuff. These moderns full of plastic components and sealed electronic units prob will not be there for future generations, whereas the same olduns we know know will...albeit even older of course. I find this a great shame, as the fantastic machines we see now, like the M series BMW's or Jaguar XK's etc are so complex I doubt if they will survive 20 years. Which means I'll never get my hands on any!
By the way, have you tried manouvering one of these without the engine on? God it is almost impossible.. Took me and my two strapping lads, and a garden tractor to move it across the garden and behind my garage on my yard...nearly killed me :-[
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Simmo on Jul 22nd, 2012, 8:38am

on 07/21/12 at 22:21:41, Jeff wrote:
And I have cleaned the MAF on this one; although if you needed to replace yours Mike, maybe just cleaning isn't enough. How did you establish it needed replacement?

Jeff, I had mine go some years ago. Believe me you'll know !! ::).  It ran like a pig revs all over the place and almost undriveable in any meaningful way. ;)
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 22nd, 2012, 10:29am
Aah right, don't think I'm quite at that stage.....yet!!
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 22nd, 2012, 11:55am

on 07/21/12 at 22:21:41, Jeff wrote:
No, I don't think the O/D has anything to do with it.

LOL that isn't exactly what I meant, O/D flashing is a WARNING, computer is trying to tell you there's a problem with the gearbox! (It thinks) Which is a pretty serious situation if absolutely true (but as we know, it can be fooled ;D )

Ergo my asking, if your box genuinely has a real fault....


Quote:
The point you make Mike is that if I switch top gear off, then maybe it will not do it...is that what you are getting at?

Yes exactly, as an experiment


Quote:
And I have cleaned the MAF on this one; although if you needed to replace yours Mike, maybe just cleaning isn't enough. How did you establish it needed replacement?

I cleaned it thoroughly according to the 'instructions' here :D ~ did naff all, bought a brand new one, bingo, like waving a magic wand :D



Quote:
I'm hoping the selector has simply dried up a bit due to lack of use for so long (over a year now).

Eek could be, we have heard of seized up ones!  :o Due to standing for months


Quote:
By the way, have you tried manouvering one of these without the engine on? God it is almost impossible.. Took me and my two strapping lads, and a garden tractor to move it across the garden and behind my garage on my yard...nearly killed me :-[

I haven't but I can imagine.

Once tried to drive it away without the engine on http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/Iamstupid.gif

First clue, steering wheel wouldn't turn http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_scratchhead.gif ~ ummm, summat not right here....

lol ;D
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 22nd, 2012, 12:00pm
Just remembered, there is an experiment you can do, assume it's applicable to 24V also ~ unplug the MAF and try driving it like that, forces 'open loop fuelling' or summat, but means computer abandons trying to use the MAF cos it can't, so if that's what's causing the issue it should be better. If not like a 'cure' (?)
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 22nd, 2012, 12:03pm
@ PJ, that is indeed very interesting.
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:44pm
Mike, thanks for your interest on this. I must admit on the subject of the MAF the cleaning didn't make much of a difference, and it makes sense that replacing it was effective - years of heating a dirty element is very likely to leave a coated wire, isn't it. I wonder if mine is 'dropping out' and causing the gearbox to lose track of where everything is. I'd like to replace mine, I think - should I go to Ford or do you know of an alternative? Don't suppose motor factors will supply - I will make enquiries tomorrow.
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Simmo on Jul 23rd, 2012, 7:52am
Jeff, the first stage would be to try and locate a member who would let you try a known good one.  ;)
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by leewar on Jul 23rd, 2012, 11:58am
Jeff, If the 24v maf is the same as a 2.0L, I have a working one for you to try  ;)
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Jeff on Jul 23rd, 2012, 12:23pm
Good stuff Lee, let me buy it as I don't know how long I'll be fannying around. If it makes no difference then my original one shall be deemed serviceable and would be available to anyone who might need, in future. What's the damage?
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 23rd, 2012, 5:55pm

on 07/22/12 at 21:44:55, Jeff wrote:
I must admit on the subject of the MAF the cleaning didn't make much of a difference, and it makes sense that replacing it was effective - years of heating a dirty element is very likely to leave a coated wire, isn't it.

Well quite so and I wondered about that, hence try a new one anyway 'cause it wasn't expensive.

As far as I can tell there's a heated resistor, then 'downwind' a thermistor (temperature sensitive resistor), I figure either of them are quite capable of going kaput with age. I also dabble in electronics and have learned heating elements or resistors can fail or change their value if overheated or repeatedly heated, as could thermistors. Hence my 'old age' theory. ;D

There is of course the idea that black deposits on the elements can have an insulating effect, thus upsetting the expected operation, but pretty sure I did get the old MAF ones shiny bright, to no avail
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 23rd, 2012, 6:07pm

on 07/23/12 at 11:58:42, leewar wrote:
Jeff, If the 24v maf is the same as a 2.0L, I have a working one for you to try  ;)

Got a feeling it isn't the same, going by previous topics (?)

Found this:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=print;num=1224010308
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Simmo on Jul 24th, 2012, 8:12am

on 07/22/12 at 12:00:07, Mike H wrote:
Just remembered, there is an experiment you can do, assume it's applicable to 24V also ~ unplug the MAF and try driving it like that, forces 'open loop fuelling' or summat, but means computer abandons trying to use the MAF cos it can't, so if that's what's causing the issue it should be better. If not like a 'cure' (?)

The details of what to do/how to check are in the link 'Testing the MAF' and the Functionality link has details of the difference between the 16v and 24v unit. Essentially it seems in the housing. Have a read of the relevant sections in this Search (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=maf&sp-a=sp100172f5) ;)
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Dave2302 on Jul 24th, 2012, 9:45am
See my post on the other MAF thread, the "Guts" probably are the same and can be swapped from housing to housing if so  ;)

HTH Dave
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Mike H on Jul 24th, 2012, 11:31am
Very handy if so ;D
Title: Re: 24V gearbox removal
Post by Dave2302 on Jul 24th, 2012, 7:25pm
I fitted 2.0 Zetec guts in mine, worked fine and is still working fine in the Puma  ;)


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