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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> dim dip
        
(Message started by: bernard_slade on Jan 1^st, 2013, 3:21pm)

Title: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 1^st, 2013, 3:21pm

continuing my pursuit of dim dip relay etc i have gone to the main fusebox and r7 has no relay thought that was the answer but looking at snoopy's wiring diagrams post 4/97 no dim dip relay is shown so i am now wondering if this was another economy like deletion of door lights on the facelift models -does anyone know if their facelift scorps have dim dip as i may be attempting to find and install a relay in the box that is not wired for it i suspect it is probably a yellow 40 amp 5 pin as the older diagram is shown as having terminal 87 and 87a inaddition to the 85 ,86 and 30 terminals but im wasting my time if the later scorps dont have dim dip ::)

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by a900one on Jan 1^st, 2013, 5:41pm

As far as I know my 98 has no dim dip, just checked no dim dip, side lights then dip.

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Jan 1^st, 2013, 7:12pm

Didn't think dim-dip was fitted on UK supplied vehicles that far back ???
I know it has been compulsory on vehicles for some EU coutries such as Sweden for many years.

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 2^nd, 2013, 12:35am

yes mike even my 1991 sierra has dim dip and my 1995 scorp had it the swedish version was undimmed personally i found it useful in town in early evening when you didnt want to dazzle everyone with the otherwise obligatory full power headlamps

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Simmo on Jan 2^nd, 2013, 7:35am

My 96 2.0 ltr Ultima has it. :)

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Snoopy on Jan 2^nd, 2013, 7:49am

I think you will find that the dim dip facility was discontinued after 1996. Prior to that it was an industry standard on most cars as a " pedestrian" safety feature. It was if my memory correct introduced sometime around 1986.
My understanding of it was that there was a resistor in the relay. but that's all I can recall.

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by PJDavis on Jan 2^nd, 2013, 9:33am

1996 'Aunty' has Dim-Dip. 1998 'Movvy' has no Dim-Dip. I haven't tried swapping the relay so don't know if movvy has the capability.

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by gozz on Jan 2^nd, 2013, 9:39am

Yes PJ,all my funeral Scorpios up to 'P' reg had dim dip,but none after that.

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 2^nd, 2013, 10:59am

ok thanks everyone it looks like this time i am flogging a dead horse

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Glyn on Jan 3^rd, 2013, 1:30am

I was told by my ex-ford auto electrician that dim-dip was fitted to confofm with a proposed EU requirement but Ford dropped it when it was abandoned. Since it was relatively late in production they may not have altered the wiring-anyone know that? Both of my 95's and the 96 have it.
Glyn

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 3^rd, 2013, 2:43pm

this morning i tried inserting a probe into the slot that would house terminal 30 if the relay was fitted and did a simple term to earth on my multimeter set to volts --it was dead with sidelights on and no ignition on and also with ignition in position 2 but when i started the car with sidelights on it showed 12-13 volts so i have reason to believe part of the system is there--whether there is anything attached to 87 and 87a sockets i dont know only inserting a dim dip relay will prove if there is anything there .amazingly the only dim dip relays on e bay are for landrovers so i wll have to trawl breakers yards -i dont fancy paying ford dealer prices for something that probably wont work anyway

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by PJDavis on Jan 3^rd, 2013, 6:34pm

Bernard. I've got a load of relays up here, give me a day or two and I'll find out which one and post one to you. I'll check it's working first and I'll need an address from you through PM. Yours for the usual wee donation to the site.
Peter

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Snoopy on Jan 4^th, 2013, 7:49am

I knew I had seen something relating to Dim Dip and HERE IT IS (https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6!146#cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6!167)

Relay position is shown HERE (https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6!146#cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6!790)

Look at the relay in the circuit and it quite clearly shows the resistor.

Hope this helps

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Simmo on Jan 4^th, 2013, 12:28pm

The relay in my Ultima is blue.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8344900203_549e897db6_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/90140801@N05/8344900203/)

It has 234 in black on the side. The pins are numbered as mentioned ie:85,86,87,87a and 30.
Codes on top are : 86GG14K083AA,41212,4RD003520-34 and 40/35A 12v.

Hopefully PJ has one. Please let us know if fitting one does the trick. ;)

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by PJDavis on Jan 6^th, 2013, 7:38pm

Update. I extracted the blue relay from a pile of stuff in the shed, I tested it to make sure the relay etc is working, it flicks-over nicely. I then did the same as Bernard and tested the place where the relay should be and got the same reading! However when I put the relay into the correct slot on 'Movvy', nothing! So I tested 'Aunty', and everything working ok there, I remover the relay from 'Aunty' and fitted to 'Movvy', still nothing. I reckon the later models didn't have the facility.
Peter

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 7^th, 2013, 2:54am

thanks for the info peter i guess the wires connecting the relay to the headlamp dip circuit were not installed and although installing those wires would be fairly straightforward i am reluctant to disturb the main fusebox as wires might crack or desintegrate i guess i will live without it ---as you may gather my previous arnitel experience has made me a nervous wreck where wiring is concerned on scorpios-i wonder if any other makes and models are running around with the arnitel time bomb

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 10^th, 2013, 5:02pm

just for the record peters relay arrived today and as suspected fitting it did not provide dim dip so i am now looking to install the relay as a stand alone system outside the fusebox maybe taking a feed from the term30 in the fusebox which is live at the right times and maybe feeding direct to the headlamp terminals the concept is a bit hazy yet -my overiding objective is as little disturbance of the existing wiring possible so coming outside the fusebox and running separate wiring to the lamps looks the way to go .much study of old haynes manuals and scorp wiring diagrams such as they are will now ensue.unfortunately the ford schematic diagrams may be perfectly clear to fords but i find them less than comprehensive ---colour codes for wires are often missing -haynes were good on that but never did the scorp still it will give me something to think about in these dark nights

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Tompion on Jan 10^th, 2013, 7:50pm

Difficult looking at the diagrams on screen.
I think the bulbs are in series for dim-dip which I assume is why the right dip bulb has an independant earth feed which comes from the multifunction switch, whereas the left bulb shares it's earth with the other bulbs.

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Tompion on Jan 10^th, 2013, 7:57pm

Take a look here at the daytime light diagrams:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/hlampfunc.htm

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 15^th, 2013, 2:42am

it looks like the dim dip relay when energised breaks the independent earth circuit to the multifunction switch and feeds a reverse current from fuse 18 to terminal 87 then along what was the earth lead to the rh headlamp then in series through the normal fused but at the time inactive headlamp feed wires to the left hand headlamp to earth which is common on that side acheiving the dimming without using resistors in circuit. -the dim dip relay is energised when the ignition is in position2 and the light switch is on sidelights thus that feed is recieved by terminal 86 and exits from terminal 85 and i believe is fed to the mainbeam supply wire to earth using the bulb filament as a resistor to limit current flow. when the light switch is put on normal dipped headlights the dim dip relay no longer recieves a supply and fuse 18 supply to term 87 is disconnected and the original earth is reconnected via term 87a ### ok thats about how it works but now comes the task of finding and identifying the wires at the headlamp end because apart from the sidelamp feed the other wires colourings dont conform to prefacelift or facelift colours shown on the wiring diagrams and one wire on both sets of diagrams is shown as a heavy dotted line with no colour shown.also interestingly the three wires to the levelling motor are totally different to the only wiring diagram shown on site and this includes snoopy's wiring pdfs ###thats my progress so far but i have still got a lot of homework to do when the sun comes out

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Jan 16^th, 2013, 5:58pm

mystery of odd coloured wires to headlamps solved -it seems that at some stage the facelift lamps were replaced by pre facelift lamps but instead of unplugging the leads they left the pre facelift plugs and wires in the lamps and cut the loom and joined the wires with scotchlink coinnectors --why i dont know i thought the facelift and prefacelift lamps and plugs were fully interchangeable --maybe theres something else i dont know anyway now i can continue the wire identification process--to be continued

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Mike H on Jan 20^th, 2013, 4:49pm

on 01/03/13 at 14:43:40, bernard_slade wrote:

Dim-dip only works with engine on, else side lights only.

The dim-dip relay coil is earthed through the high beam bulbs via a reverse blocking diode so it only works when main beam is off. (E.g. goes off when flashing high beam?) The diode prevents current going back through the relay when high beam is on.

Dim dip relay disconnects low beam bulb RH side from its earth and connects to +12V, so both dip beam bulbs are powered in series.

It follows then that low beam bulb RH side needs the relay in place to work as a normal low beam, as the earth path is through the relay.

Except later cars where this aspect is became hard wired again presumably.

It's called daytime dip relay on page 7 here:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21146#cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21818

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by bernard_slade on Feb 14^th, 2013, 7:02pm

dim dip successfully installed now up and working .i decided to go for a separate relay holder and fuse of rists wires make and inserted a single blade male terminal into the slot in the fusebox normally occupied by term 86 on the relay if fitted there but as there were no other valid connections there i took the wire outside the fusebox exiting at the end where the master plug is situated . i connected term 87 on the relay holder to the 10 amp fuseholder then from other end of fuse to battery direct . i decided to regard the rh headlamp as the rh when standing in front of the car and the bottom lh black wire earth as probably the wire on pre facelifts that went to the earth/live reverse flow in the relay on this assumption i cut that wire near the headlamp and connected the wire from teminal 30 at the relay holder to the headlmp end of the cut wire using a scotchlink connecter the other end of the cut wire was similarly attached to the wire from term 87a earth on the relay holder all that remaine dt do was connect term 85 to the main beam supply on the opposite headlamp but which was mainbeam supply i had violet/white or orangyred/black which didnt appear on any wiring diagram so i guessed the inner one but bared the wire sufficiently to jump a wire from batt positive to the bared wire and the upper bulb lit so i was wrong hastily taped that one back up and connected the terminal 86 wire to the other wire in this case the rh top wire at the lefthand headlamp plug having first checked that the lower bulb lit diect from the jumper to battery. turned on sidelights and nothing went bang ok now heart in mouth i started it up turned sielights on and lo behold i had dimmed headlamps ,turned to headlamps and normal dipped beam,flipped column stalk to full beam and all ok mission complete --big thanks to all who gave advice and especially to peter who kindly supplied the all important dim /dip relay :D :D

Title: Re: dim dip
Post by Mike H on Feb 17^th, 2013, 1:54pm

Terrific! ;D