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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Fuel pump problem?
        
(Message started by: wolfblood on Apr 16^th, 2013, 5:47pm)

Title: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 16^th, 2013, 5:47pm

Hi everyone my 24v decided.to lose all power this morning during rush hour as I pulled onto the main road. Starter motor turns but engine not firing. Green Flag guy came out and sprayed some of that cold start spray into the air intake and engine started then stopped. Guy says it looks like fuel pump. Car is now outside house. Are there any roadside tests I could do to confirm its the pump?

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Matt on Apr 16^th, 2013, 5:54pm

if you put ignition on you should hear the pump run for a second or 2, if not try the fuel cut off switch in the boot, its a little red button which is by the boot catch on a saloon and behind a side panel in load area on estate, it should be pressed down

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 16^th, 2013, 9:33pm

Can hear a noise for a second or two when turn key to just before starter engages. Don't know if it is significant but turned the engine when came back from work and it started for a few seconds then stuttered then stopped.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Andycan on Apr 16^th, 2013, 9:46pm

maybe the fuel filter needs replacing? you will need to check that there is fuel getting up to the engine.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Matt on Apr 16^th, 2013, 10:22pm

is the pats let on top on the dash flashing rapidly??

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 17^th, 2013, 7:57am

Will check when I get home. Started it up this morning and it ran fine for about 10 seconds staryed to splutter but recovered when I applied more throttle. Ran for amother 20 seconds then spluttered agaon but cut out this time.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by PJDavis on Apr 17^th, 2013, 9:07am

Is the fuel-loom 'crispy'? I've had similar problems with my 2.3 before I repaired a section of the wiring-loom, and then again before I replaced it with a brand-new loom. Just a thought.
Peter

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Matt on Apr 17^th, 2013, 10:46am

does it sound like its 'sucking' air in the engine bay. the 24v suffers from a bad designed vac system that uses brittle plastic connections.

Also how does the coil pack look? if its rusty and bulging then the coils could be failing.

do you have a code reader?

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Nightrider1 on Apr 17^th, 2013, 9:46pm

How did you find the green flag service I had to use them once for my land rover 110 v8 as the LPG system was playing up and it would not start The guy turned up ask me three times if it was a diesel then phoned a friend who turned up they hooked it up to a starter pack turned it over and over and over and said is it a diesel again then out came the Easy Start. What a bunch of monkeys I will not use them again after a wile I fixed it my self .
Are all the break down firms the same.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by amigafan2003 on Apr 17^th, 2013, 10:02pm

on 04/17/13 at 21:46:04, Nightrider1 wrote:

Are all the break down firms the same.

Pretty much. I only use them as a means to get me home if I break down, I don't expect them to fix anything.

In fact, when I popped the rad on my Scorp I specifically told the AA man I didn't want him to try and fix it - chewing up hose clips, tearing hoses, scratching bodywork etc - I just instructed him to tow me home.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by gozz on Apr 18^th, 2013, 8:54am

on 04/17/13 at 22:02:14, amigafan2003 wrote:

A few years ago I took some business men from this area to the Grosvenor House Hotel one evening.On the way down the M11 a large shackle pin or similar appeared from underneath a lorry in front of me,it bounced up and down then rattled along the bottom of the limo which was a Granada auto,we then started making a little smoke,the debris had knocked one of the auto cooler pipes against the bell housing making a small hole in it,thus depositing fluid onto the exhaust.
We got down to Park Lane OK,I then found a late night
spares shop,purchasing a junior hacksaw,small screwdriver,two hose clips and a piece of petrol pipe.As I was besuited,the Green Flag was summoned with a clear explanation of what was required of them.As I waited an AA man came out of the spares shop and asked me if he could do the job,I thanked him,saying that I really should wait for Green Flag.Twenty minutes later a recovery truck rolled up driven by an arrogant youth smelling of aftershave with a tidy haircut,he announced that he was taking the car back to Peterborough.When
told what was needed he said "we don't do no repairs mate,anyway that's a high pressure pipe,it'll burst the rubber",I tried to enlighten him but he knew best.Just then his boss radioed and asked if he had located me,the driver told him of the situation,he replied "tell the bloke to make his mind up",I then got rather short tempered,and sent him on his way ::)
The car was then jacked up at the offside front with the wheel changing jack,the wheel removed and pushed under the front crossmember in case the thing fell off.Next I removed my jacket,tie and shirt and did the job.
The Green Flag was written to in the strongest terms,their eventual reply was without apology and useless,saying that the recovery firm despatched did not do repairs,and that I should never have gone under the car in those circumstances ::),very helpful eh ?.
When their annual subscription was due,I declined 'gracefully' :P

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Simmo on Apr 18^th, 2013, 11:24am

on 04/18/13 at 08:54:02, gozz wrote:

When their annual subscription was due,I declined 'gracefully' :P

I rather fancy that the "Gozz gracefully" may not coincide with the Oxford Dictionary definition!. :D ;D

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 18^th, 2013, 4:49pm

Don't know if this will shed any more light on the problem. Just fitted a new fuel filter as this has been suggested by a number of contacts car started an ran lovely for about 3 minutes then started what seemed to be misfires then died. Have tried starting a few times but the car seems to be trying to start now but just not catching.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 18^th, 2013, 11:33pm

Thanks for the feedback all. A friend at work lent me a usb code reader. Just got to find software for it.
Looms and packs look OK.
PATS looks to be acting normally.
No-one I have asked seems to be able to figure why it starts after being left for a while and then stops.
Now have to charge the battery before next steps.
I have been told to check the fuel pump relay and possible shorting it to test if the pump is working after ignition. Does anyone know which pins need shorting to test this?

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Nunnspoet on Apr 19^th, 2013, 9:20am

Hi Wolfblood.

Check Relay R 17: Fuel Injector Pump, in the Bty.side Fuse Box. There may be somebody in your area that could do a tempory swap of this relay.

In no way am I an Auto Electrician however 13 years ago I owened a Vauxhall Carlton Estate (loved that car) which started playing up like your car. Changing the Fuel Relay cured the problem.

Mike
p.s. Rust killed that car. :'(

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by PJDavis on Apr 19^th, 2013, 10:30am

I wonder if there's water in your petrol? Just a thought!

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by pedropedro on Apr 19^th, 2013, 11:34am

Dont know if 24v uses same edis unit as 2.3;mine did exactly as above and wiring from connector of edis was caput...just under water header tank...worth moving those wires to see if any change in behaviour

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 20^th, 2013, 9:22am

Just run it for about 7 minutes before it cut out. Jiggling various wires. There does seem to be a sound like air movement from the back of the engine uk
drivers side.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 20^th, 2013, 10:00am

Further update I have found a small pool of what looks and feels like an oil in the bottom of the air filter box.
Cheers

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 20^th, 2013, 10:40am

Another update. When I turn key to the on position there is a rapid ticking sound coming form the engine. Not loud and can only hear it when everything else is quiet and I am over the engine.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Simmo on Apr 20^th, 2013, 11:37am

on 04/20/13 at 10:40:37, wolfblood wrote:

Another update. When I turn key to the on position there is a rapid ticking sound coming form the engine. Not loud and can only hear it when everything else is quiet and I am over the engine.

Relay?

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 20^th, 2013, 11:44am

Cheers Simmo
Have removed the R17 relay that others have advised and the ticking is still there.
Have found another R17 and tried that but it is still the same.
Unfortunately the other R17 relay is from a second hand fusebox so I suppose that could have been a bad one.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Simmo on Apr 20^th, 2013, 12:10pm

Try 16? If one is ticking you may be able to actually feel it?. ;) Try 11 ? :)

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 20^th, 2013, 4:27pm

I have narrowed it down. the ticking stops when I remove relay R21 which according to the chart is the ignition lock. Have tried a different relay of the same type in slot R21 and the ticking starts.
Unsure if this is connected to why the car keeps cutting out after a few minutes then won't start for an hour or so.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 21^st, 2013, 6:35pm

Finally got through to a mate who has an OBD hoping he can check it tomorrow after work.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 22^nd, 2013, 8:03pm

Mate turned up with his MODIS OBD computer couldn't get the car to start but we have found the following:

P0141 Heated O2 sensor heater circuit malfunction Bank1 sensor 2

P1124 Throttle position sensor out of self test range

and finally when we turned the engine over the system gave an engine speed of 0 RPM. All the other figures shown moved when ignition key was turned and starter motor was running engine speed stayed a firm 0.

From this my mate says next thing to look at is a new Crank Position Sensor which from his description of what it does sounds a good idea.
Are the other two faults critical as well?
Have looked at the page here to see how to replace the crank sensor:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engineman/cosworth/24vCKP.pdf
and it looks like it is at the front by the belts. Is this right?

Cheers Everyone.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Pegasus on Apr 22^nd, 2013, 8:17pm

on 04/20/13 at 10:00:00, wolfblood wrote:

Further update I have found a small pool of what looks and feels like an oil in the bottom of the air filter box.
Cheers

Got the same thing but after changing over the PCV it's just water (condense from blowby exhausts being recirc'ed to inlet). If you look at the little filter pad where the recirc'd exhaust comes into the air box it'll probably be horrible with a consistency of salad cream from soaked oil/water mixture.

My scan shows nothing obvious (though wondering about pre cat sensors) but car still runs fine - it's just that the emissions are now high. Might be a leak in the vacuum system but nothing obvious so might just change tubing and see if things improve.

BTW - has anyone tested the vacuum pull from the PCV in a 24V? That is, with engine hot and running pull out the PCV and put thumb/finger over end to feel how strong the 'suck' is. It's barely noticeable on mine though the 'valve' appears to be working (and rattles as it should).

Paul

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 22^nd, 2013, 10:26pm

Cheer Paul for that feedback on the airbox one thing less to worry about.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 22^nd, 2013, 10:29pm

I have been looking for a crankshaft sensor like my mate advised. The instructions above mention a lower and upper bolt but all the pictures of the crankshaft sensors for sale that I can find have just one hole is this right?

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Tompion on Apr 22^nd, 2013, 10:33pm

As you don’t have a code relating to the crank sensor I don’t see any reason to suspect that over anything else. The TPS however is critical in that it conveys to the engine management the position of the throttle - since you have a code for it you should sort that out first.

You could try a battery disconnect to reset the TPS value (make sure you have your radio code), whilst not as severe a problem as yours this gives an indication of the importance of the TPS:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/obd2scan9.htm

Data for the TPS here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/tpsdata.htm

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Matt on Apr 23^rd, 2013, 8:48am

They are 2 bolt. I might have a spare if you dont have any luck finding one. It sounds like your looking at the cam sensor, thats a 1 bolt

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 23^rd, 2013, 8:50am

Cheers for the feedback
Battery had been recharged and replaced just before we tested the car (have to take batery out to recharge as car is on the road). Would that have reset the sensors before the test?
I think the reason my friend suggested the crankshaft sensor was that he seemed to believe if that gave a 0 reading for rpm while turning the engine over the car computer would simply shut everything down to prevent damage elsewhere.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 27^th, 2013, 1:58pm

Just fitted another crank sensor (thanks Matt) ran lovely for about half an hour then I turned engine off thinking all eas OK. Just got back in the car turned the engine on fine and realised I had not put spare tyre back in the boot. Turned engine off put wheel back in boot. Turned engine and it won't start now. It is trying but not firing up.

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by Matt on Apr 27^th, 2013, 5:04pm

have you knocked the fuel cut off in the boot? its a little red button, needs to be pressed down

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 27^th, 2013, 8:05pm

Cheers Matt

Fuel cut off is pressed all the way in.
Just a thought does anyone know if it is possible to bypass the cutoff switch in order to rule out a problem there?

Title: Re: Fuel pump problem?
Post by wolfblood on Apr 28^th, 2013, 3:52pm

Friend came down plugged his obd machine in and there was a 0 rpm reading again. He got under car and cut the outer sleeve back on the wires. Both the wires were missing their insulation. Seperated the wires by the connector to the crank sensor and car started and ran fine for a while and showed decent rpm on his computer. Then died. Wouldn't start until he wiggled wires. Looking at that next. Just have to find how far back we need to go to find healthy insulation. So har found bad insulation as far as under the top waterpipe to radiator.