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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 combo)
        
(Message started by: rixivee on May 1st, 2013, 2:30pm)
Title: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 combo)
Post by rixivee on May 1st, 2013, 2:30pm
I've read the rules and guideline. I believe I'm allowed to start discussion like this but if you disagree, feel free to remove this thread.

Hello,
This is my first post on this forum, so I want to give a good image of myself to you  in form of introducing myself.

I am a Finnish student, who has a weird obsession to Fords and especially for Scorpio/Granada(90-98, sedan and stw).

I'm working on an older Scorpio(Granada in GB) but I'm upgrading it with "frog-eye" parts. I'm also looking into buying a frog-eye stw in close future.

My questions is about building a combination of 2.0i 16v dohc and 2.3i 16v dohc. I'm going to use the 2.3 dohc as a base and add "best bits" of the 2.0 16v dohc to it.

2.3i 16v dohc with:
-2.0i 16v dohc inlet/intake manifold
-2.0i 16v dohc camshafts
-RS2000 16v dohc adjustable camgears(apparently 2.0i 16v Scorpio doesn't have adjustable gears)

I'll most likely need a custom ECU because of the VIS-manifold, in order to make the system fully working. I believe MegaSquirt will be only viable option and having EDIS ignition would make the install easy.

Apparently the original ECU has EDIS integrated, so would it be possible to use Sierra EDIS module for MegaSquirt install? Does the engine have everything else for the EDIS to work?

Also, is there anyone who has done similar project WHILE HAVING the VIS fully working? Any advice with such project?

Thanks! I'll do a spellcheck later, just wrote this with my phone.

Regards,
Rixi

P.S. please ignore stupidity in my post. I fail at expressing myself in English.
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by Matt on May 1st, 2013, 3:48pm
Hi Rixi

I dont believe the RS2000 has adjustable cam gears as standard.

the scorpio uses an external EDIS 4 module, which on RHD cars in fitted under the expansion tank.

You can run the engine on fords EEC ecu. scorpio runs EECV and i believe the rs2000 only runs on eevIV.

ive built this engine and it ran on fine on the scorpio 2.3 ecu, but its programmed for cruising, youd need it chipped to make it more performance based.
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by PJDavis on May 1st, 2013, 6:04pm

on 05/01/13 at 15:48:48, Matt wrote:
Hi Rixi

I dont believe the RS2000 has adjustable cam gears as standard.

the scorpio uses an external EDIS 4 module, which on RHD cars in fitted under the expansion tank.

You can run the engine on fords EEC ecu. scorpio runs EECV and i believe the rs2000 only runs on eevIV.

ive built this engine and it ran on fine on the scorpio 2.3 ecu, but its programmed for cruising, youd need it chipped to make it more performance based.


Dave2302 may in the future be able to bespoke-tune 2.3/2.0 engines like the 24V cosworth.   What a 'Boon'!
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by rixivee on May 2nd, 2013, 1:54pm

on 05/01/13 at 15:48:48, Matt wrote:
Hi Rixi

I dont believe the RS2000 has adjustable cam gears as standard.

the scorpio uses an external EDIS 4 module, which on RHD cars in fitted under the expansion tank.

You can run the engine on fords EEC ecu. scorpio runs EECV and i believe the rs2000 only runs on eevIV.

ive built this engine and it ran on fine on the scorpio 2.3 ecu, but its programmed for cruising, youd need it chipped to make it more performance based.


I've been hearing that too, however most "torn apart" RS2000 16v Escorts in Finland seem to have adjustable gears. I don't really know what's that all about but RS2000 16v suitable adjustable gears will fit this "Frankenstein" too. ;D

Megasquirt install would be a piece of cake with help of EDIS. I'm not sure if I'm ready to go MegaSquirt yet, but I know for sure that I won't be able to pay 400+€(about 350£?) just to get the ECU programmed.

However, Wikipedia(and my technical advisor) told me that the EDIS MODULE is built into the EECV ECU but I went to garage and found the module. Weird. This pretty much means that MegaSquirt would be an easy install.

I'm open to options because I'm primarily going for durability and maintaining mileage. Increased power is only a secondary goal.

Anyway, your post opened new questions:
1. Is 2.3 ECU able to control VIS properly?
2. Is the ECU "smart" enough to "feel" the changed parts?(cams, inlet)
3. How much is "chipping" there? Optimization is about 500€ and Performance varies from 800 to 1200€ here
4. Am I able to use the engine at all before chipping?


on 05/01/13 at 18:04:46, PJDavis wrote:
Dave2302 may in the future be able to bespoke-tune 2.3/2.0 engines like the 24V cosworth.   What a 'Boon'!


That would obviously be the best option but I don't think I can wait that long :/

Parallel installing MegaSquirt with original ECU could work too.. hmm.
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by rixivee on May 14th, 2013, 1:16am

on 05/02/13 at 13:54:32, rixivee wrote:
I've been hearing that too, however most "torn apart" RS2000 16v Escorts in Finland seem to have adjustable gears. I don't really know what's that all about but RS2000 16v suitable adjustable gears will fit this "Frankenstein" too. ;D

Megasquirt install would be a piece of cake with help of EDIS. I'm not sure if I'm ready to go MegaSquirt yet, but I know for sure that I won't be able to pay 400+€(about 350£?) just to get the ECU programmed.

However, Wikipedia(and my technical advisor) told me that the EDIS MODULE is built into the EECV ECU but I went to garage and found the module. Weird. This pretty much means that MegaSquirt would be an easy install.

I'm open to options because I'm primarily going for durability and maintaining mileage. Increased power is only a secondary goal.

Anyway, your post opened new questions:
1. Is 2.3 ECU able to control VIS properly?
2. Is the ECU "smart" enough to "feel" the changed parts?(cams, inlet)
3. How much is "chipping" there? Optimization is about 500€ and Performance varies from 800 to 1200€ here
4. Am I able to use the engine at all before chipping?


That would obviously be the best option but I don't think I can wait that long :/

Parallel installing MegaSquirt with original ECU could work too.. hmm.


So,

I started dismantling a 2.0i 16v DOHC engine and after hours of mumbling and cursing, I got the inlet manifold out. I'm still working on removing the camshafts, which isn't easy because I don't have all those special tools required to fully dismantle the engine.

I divided the inlet to smallest bits I could so far..
- Throttle body
- Inlet manifold
- VIS-head

In the process, I managed to ruin *all* gaskets and because I'm unable to recover the item codes.. I'll most likely make the new gaskets myself.

So, I pulled the throttle body open and I was surprised when both butterfly gates opened. Confusion.

So, now I'm quite familiar with how the manifold works and I'm 100% confident it'll fit 2.3 16v DOHC without a searing pain.

I'm also working on a test bench to measure the air flow. Fully computer controlled, of course.

The plans also changed in the process. Due the current laws in Finland, I am not allowed to switch engine management system, camshafts or inlet manifold. Camshafts and inlet manifold will be changed but I'm going to use 2.3 EECV ECU with modified wiring.

I'm going to post pictures by friday, if I get original 2.3 16v DOHC inlet manifold back by then.(local tuning shop is building aluminum replacement t-stat housing to it)

Anyone else done inlet manifold conversion like this? 2.3 inlet to 2.0 inlet?
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by Dave2302 on May 16th, 2013, 9:26am
Wait that long ????????????

From memory one of the 2.0 EECV ECU's is I think ABARO strategy, if that is the case then we can tune that one now, as ABARO is the 24V Strategy that we are using to Map the 24V BOB ECUs.

If you are interested let me know and I'll find out exactly what ECU it is that you'll need.................

This is way superior to the likes of MS and a fraction of the price all you have to do is post me an ECU, I'll flash it with your choice from a list of specs, and return post it  :)

We can currently tune nearly 150 different parameters within the EECV including Timing, Fuelling, Fan on / off Temps, PATS enabled or disabled, Auto Gearbox to Manual Gearbox, Delete Emissions Stuff, (EGR Can Purge etc etc).

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by Matt on May 16th, 2013, 11:11am
When i Built one i just swapped the whole top end over onto the 2.3 block.

engine felt strong and torqie but i didnt have it on a dyno so dont know of power. 2.3 ecu ran it fine (although i doubt the vis was working)

As dave says he can now remap they original ecus so he can give you something that can work very well with the engine.
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by rixivee on May 17th, 2013, 9:48am

on 05/16/13 at 11:11:02, Matt wrote:
When i Built one i just swapped the whole top end over onto the 2.3 block.

engine felt strong and torqie but i didnt have it on a dyno so dont know of power. 2.3 ecu ran it fine (although i doubt the vis was working)

As dave says he can now remap they original ecus so he can give you something that can work very well with the engine.


Unfortunately that's not possible in Finland.. Not with Scorpio. Finland has this weird law about emissions. 1987 and older cars can be tuned pretty much however you want, 1988 to 1991 cars can be somewhat tuned and to 1992+ cars you can't do anything, except replacing air intake with "cold air intake" :D

However, there's a way to tune newer cars too.. Paying 2500-3000€ for an "on the run" emission test. That's REQUIRED for tuning 1992+ cars. I've heard they do those tests cheaper in germany, eesti and GB but I've also heard that those are not qualified in Finland(even thought any test done in EU should qualify.. Got to love Finland on this. Heh).

I'm definitely interested in having my ECU flashed, if that's possible. OEM hardware is always a good way to go.

I've taken apart the 2.0 16v inlet manifold because it was leaking cleaning fluid when I was cleaning it... Apparently all gaskets are done. I was unable to recover item codes, so I've also been unable to check if those are still available.. Anyone happen to have those codes/know where to find them? Didn't find them from this site either :/

Pictures coming today, I've had them for couple of days but been far too busy to post :D
Title: Re: DOHC "Frankenstein" (2.0 & 2.3 c
Post by Scorpio on May 19th, 2013, 9:45am

on 05/16/13 at 09:26:58, Dave2302 wrote:
Wait that long ????????????

From memory one of the 2.0 EECV ECU's is I think ABARO strategy, if that is the case then we can tune that one now, as ABARO is the 24V Strategy that we are using to Map the 24V BOB ECUs.

If you are interested let me know and I'll find out exactly what ECU it is that you'll need.................

This is way superior to the likes of MS and a fraction of the price all you have to do is post me an ECU, I'll flash it with your choice from a list of specs, and return post it  :)

We can currently tune nearly 150 different parameters within the EECV including Timing, Fuelling, Fan on / off Temps, PATS enabled or disabled, Auto Gearbox to Manual Gearbox, Delete Emissions Stuff, (EGR Can Purge etc etc).

Cheers Dave


Great work Dave PM sent.

Adam


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