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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >>  2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
        
(Message started by: ro284 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 9:46am)

Title: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 9:46am

Right, having diagnosed the Head gaskets failure, i have got a new gasket set and Heads skimmed, i now have to replace the 16 Torx type Head bolts, as these are apparently not re-usable, i have found some in Germany, Via Ford, These only come in packs of 5, so i need 4 boxes of 5! To get 16! Cost £132. Plus shipping i guess! All suggestions welcome please, One question is- has anyone re-used the original bolts? What results am i likely to get if i did re-use them? Perhaps to a lower torque setting! And re tighten after running, Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Matt on Aug 8^th, 2013, 10:08am

That seems excessive

Try burton power or bga gaskets.

You can resuse the 2 smaller alan ket bolts at the very front but the msin bolts ive always replaced

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 10:29am

Thanks Matt, Burton do have them in stock, Still 100 quid +,
So its down to me to decide if it is viable, and worth doing really, Id be gratefull for any thoughts on these bolts, would i be right in thinking the reason they are not re-usable is that once used the are stretched, and to re-use them to the original torqe setting, would result in them then being over tightened! then when the engine heats up, something may crack! i have not come across Torxe head bolts before, on Mk 2 engines for instance, i am now thinking about steel washers,
Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Matt on Aug 8^th, 2013, 10:45am

Ive still got the box from bga with their part number on.

They are the same bolts used on the granada boa 24v

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 10:55am

Thanks again, i just sent an email to bga, before your reply, and will see what they come back with, i can understand these bolts being required for alloy heads and engines, but not so much for cast iron! cheers,

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Aug 8^th, 2013, 11:41am

I seem to recall the head bolts on the 2.8 were re-useable - I have certainly used them again after replacing head gaskets without any problems. Why is the 2.9 any different ?
Sounds to me like a plan to sell some expensive bolts !
24v has alloy heads, 12v has CI heads - but a vast difference in the HG set price ( £150+ v about £30 or so ? ) so I would be tempted to re-use them.

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 12:47pm

Thanks Mike, I am also going to re-use the original bolts, like i have also used on 2-8s, I have wondered about the reasons ford use these bolts on the C I heads, And wonder if it might be something to do with the fact that they are essential for alloy cosworth heads, So perhaps Ford are erring on the cautious side, referring to all 2-9 engines, and issued like a blanket use of these bolts to minimise any possible damage being done to a cosworth engine by someone using any other type of wrong bolt! I’m not prepared to spend any more on the car, if it works i get a tremendous multipurpose (18 year old) estate car back, if not it’s the mondeo route,
Thanks for replies guys Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Matt on Aug 8^th, 2013, 5:05pm

BGA code is BK5324

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Tompion on Aug 8^th, 2013, 5:45pm

That part no on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190792855102

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 8:53pm

Thanks guys, but i fitted both heads today, re-used original bolts, so will report any problems when i get it running, in a few days, Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by amigafan2003 on Aug 8^th, 2013, 10:40pm

The new head gasket WILL fail if you've reused the head bolts. It's not an "if" but a "when".

What did you use to set the bolts - a torque wrench or an angle gauge?

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by rixivee on Aug 9^th, 2013, 3:40pm

Hey, you really shouldn't reuse them.

You risk blowing the head gasket and/or head. I'm not sure how much 2.9 can tolerate but DOHC will eventually build up some problems if bolts are reused.

The basic guideline is to always replace head bolts with at least aluminum cylinder heads. It doesn't apply just to Ford engines.

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by gozz on Aug 9^th, 2013, 10:30pm

Some Job's comforters popping up here ::) I think it would be fairly safe to say that your new gaskets are safe under used bolts,these engines are very low stressed and not subject to the stresses of aluminium lumps.Ford would advise new bolts to be on the safe side,but in the past I have reused headbolts on cast iron engines on several occasions without a problem,after all the old iron engines almost without exception,used studs over which the heads fitted,never was advice given to replace the studs unless in the case of a bad thread.
Don't lose sleep over it Bob 8)

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by amigafan2003 on Aug 12^th, 2013, 6:20pm

Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly wouldn't be taking the heads off again now the jobs been done. You might get another 5k miles out of it - maybe 10k, even 20k. And the failure mode for stretched bolts is just the head lifting slightly - it's not catastrophic.

Just make sure your breakdown membership is up to date.

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 23^rd, 2013, 8:57pm

Just thought i would update this thread, Thanks for advice. I finished re-building the engine over a week ago, but this being a 95 model, the dreaded Arnitel wiring problem raised it's ugly head again! i have previously rewired the main engine bay loom, But the Engine loom itself, was also in a very poor state, if you have to move any wire more than once, the insulation falls off, and some wires were probably shorting before i even started the strip down, so it will be a few more days before i can even start the engine, as i am re routing all wiring (apart from injectors) away from in between the heads! as a matter of interest, pistons 1 and 2 were leaking into each other via the coolant holes, which may explain the same compression readings on those 2 pots! also the second push rod (left hand from the front) was caked up a bit where the gasket had failed and also leaked into the space under the inlet manifold!
Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Aug 30^th, 2013, 4:34pm

All done, the Gasket was the problem, plus the wiring loom, especially the injectors, but i have rewired everything, from the Main plug, Now i am ready to put in some Summer coolant, can anyone recomend any particular make. or mixture please, Thanks Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Snoopy on Aug 31^st, 2013, 8:25am

read THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/cooling/CoolDesc.pdf) it specifies 40% mixture and gives specifications

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Sep 11^th, 2013, 4:44pm

Thanks guys, I have been driving the car, i remember the car running hot, and since the rebuild, i feel it is still getting too hot, the first thing i have done is take the stat out, but it is still too hot, i checked all compression figures today, they are fine, (all in the 12's) the coolant tank gets pretty hot as well as the engine, i dont want to risk damaging that, So i think the first suspect is the rad, i did back flush that in place, but i notice it is extremely hot at the top as is the fan shroud. i think the fan sensor wiring is also suspect, so will rewire that as well, After realising the steel cooling pipes are connected (autobox) is it difficult to get the rad out? Any advice please, Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Simmo on Sep 11^th, 2013, 4:50pm

Bob, This (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/radiator.htm) may provide your answer. :)

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Sep 11^th, 2013, 5:10pm

Many thanks SIMMO, Got a feeling the fans are not running properly either! i will have rewired the whole car by the time i get it reliable again! Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Matt on Sep 11^th, 2013, 7:04pm

Easist way to get rad out is from under the car. Takes about half hour if the bolts arnt rusty lol

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Andycan on Sep 11^th, 2013, 8:49pm

Only if you know what you are doing and nothing goes wrong lol.

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by Snoopy on Sep 12^th, 2013, 7:30am

there is a How to on the main site http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/radiator.htm

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by amigafan2003 on Sep 12^th, 2013, 8:18am

When you say hot - how are you detrmining that? Where is the needle on the temp gauge? It should sit bang in the center.

Cossies do run VERY hot - you can't keep your hand on the rad hoses for example.

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by gozz on Sep 12^th, 2013, 9:33am

Bob.
Regarding gauge sender units,I have found in the past that factors 2.9 items always read about 3/4 up the dash gauge when the engine is fully warmed up,when,as amigafan says,the reading should be in the middle.Conversely I had a 2.3 which boiled with the gauge in the middle,the sender was faulty and the thermostat failed shut.The cooling fans seldom come on when the aircon is not in use,unless the car is stationary with the engine running for a long time,and then only in hot weather.Your fan switch is on the offside of the rad,screwed into the tank,you could pull the plug off and bridge the contacts to test it,the big green relay down low on the offside inner wing is the controller,you may well know all this anyway,but just in case 8)

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Sep 12^th, 2013, 1:26pm

Thanks for replies, Amigafan, the top hose is too hot to touch, (not a cossie) The guage seems to fluctuate! The problem is the blessed wiring again, with no cooling fans coming on at all, i missed that! but i have to get about for bits ect, so will temporarily wire the fans to stay on slow for now, unplug the Air con pump but switch this on for full speed fans when required. Thanks Gozz, i seem to have ended up with two different stats one off a 16v. Could someone confirm that the correct one is the one with the spring and disk on the back of the stat please? i used Castrol GTX, 10/40 on the last V6 i had, any thoughts on this please, Thanks Bob

Title: Re: 2-9 Dilemma Head Bolts!
Post by ro284 on Sep 25^th, 2013, 6:38pm

Just to update, The fan switch wiring had packed up, also the fan switch is faulty, The HT lead from the coil was grotty, and one plug cracked, I think one injector may be dribbling causing one plug to be black! also found a very poor earth on the coil, However The tickover is far more stable now, I do feel there is a bit of hesitation when flooring it at around 3K revs, The fuel filter has never been changed, mileage 85K, I suspect the FPR may be week, causing the hesitation, Any advice on this please? otherwise the engine is quite perky! The car is more reliable having completely rewired the engine loom, I will make a tester, or get a star tester /code reader, if poss, Any one got one? so it seems to get it to 100% i need an FPR, FUEL fILTER. AND FAN SWITCH, Then i can start tidying the bodywork, Any thoughts much appreciated, Bob