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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
        
(Message started by: rixivee on Nov 3^rd, 2013, 3:38pm)

Title: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 3^rd, 2013, 3:38pm

Hello!

This doesn't have much to do with frog-eyes, but I'm sure this is the only place to get help for stuff to do with them.

I've got pretty much full frog-eye loom(missing doors and engine bay, but I do have engine related loom from the engine bay. They are from different cars, both cut at the firewall.)

I'm currently extracting everything engine related from the frog-eye loom.. So my question is, if I follow wiring from the ECU to the end.. Will I get "enough" loom to install frog-eye engine to a mk3 granny for example? Or do I need some parts of the loom that do not meet ecu at any point?

As far as I know, for EEC-IV controlled engine, everything engine related goes through the ecu. Does this apply for EEC-V too? I'm aware of the PATS-difference, but it goes through ecu.

May be stupid question and I'm very sorry if it is.. I just don't want to find another donor for the loom :-D

Oh and also, what are the "weak points" of the loom? Like where to look for possible cracks in the insulation etc? I'm obviously going to inspect it carefully but it's possible I may miss something. :/

Thanks!

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by ro284 on Nov 3^rd, 2013, 8:06pm

Hi Rix
I have been rewiring my engine loom, after rebuilding engine after head gasket failure! It has taken quite a time to do, firstly i would have thought there would be enough wiring from a frog eye loom, from the ecu, most of the wiring runs right round the engine (in front of the rad,) then back to the driver’s side bulkhead,(via a multi-plug) where the ignition wires/etc go to the Distributor and auto box! That is around 10 feet!
I am thinking of rewiring mine again, simply because it would be far easier and less loom to worry about, for instance wire from the ecu along the passenger side bulkhead, for IG and Auto box, saving a lot of wire, (and therefore less wire to get damaged!) Also All the engine sensors injectors etc. could also be wired from the bulkhead to the front of the engine instead of right round the rad!, I would add that mine is a 95 12v known for very poor insulation in the looms, ( Arnitel wiring) The very worst part of the wiring is to the multiplug on the inside of offside wheel bulkhead, and across to the stat area, i have bypassed the multi-plug altogether, because though the wiring on the top of that plug was bad, it was even worse underneath!
The best wiring was in front of the rad, where i rewired some wires to, Is your reason for the questions because you are going to wire a Mk2? (i would hope the looms you have are not from a 12 v 95, You mention you do not have the door and puddle light looms, i have all four door looms, if needed,
If i can help let me know, Bob

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 3^rd, 2013, 8:31pm

Ah, yes and no.

I'm going to replace the 2.0i 8v DOHC engine of my MK3 Granada Scorpio with a 2.3i 16v DOHC. Already got half of the frog-eye interior in and next I'm doing to engine swap(to get a reason to swap the dashboard).

Basically, the engine swap is not a straight forward job, because Granny uses EEC-IV engine management and the 2.3 "needs" EEC-V to work properly. So, it involves digging into the main car loom and rewiring connectors to allow EEC-V to communicate with the granny loom.

That's why I'm extracting the engine related part of the frog-eye loom. It'll be much easier to compare it to what I have(and to cut the wires at the very beginning to avoid any unwanted wiring hassle).

I'm also planning to further utilize the frog-eye loom when I add some Ghia spec treats.

Anyway, I think I found the answers to my worries and it seems that Granada Scorpio actually shares a few connectors with Frogeye, so this actually may be close to bolt-on job.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 5^th, 2013, 5:37pm

So, I ran into a major problem.

At some point I have cut blue/black wire from the gray PATS-connector.

Can anyone supply me any information on PATS-wiring/what information does the pats control module get and send?

EDIT: The blue/black wire meets other blue/light yellow or blue/white wire and couples with it to form 3 new wires, blue/red and two completely blue wires. One blue wire goes into a closed connector(it has a cap that seems to couple wires into a group of four wires). This blue wire is connected with blue/red and blue/orange.

Wt* is this?

What are these sealed connectors? (The black connectors that have a cap on them. The cap couples connections apparently.)

EDIT2:

The other two blue wires run to a green connector, where the red/blue wire turns into a stiffer green wire and the full blue wire turns into two white/blue wires.

Seriously what? This thing is driving me nuts.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Tompion on Nov 5^th, 2013, 6:18pm

I doubt you’ll get that information. You need to retain all PATS related wiring, the key sensor, a key that is programmed to the ECU & the light so you can read the codes if there are any. People run into a lot of trouble with this type of transfer because of PATS. The best bet if you’re sticking to the Ford ECU is to transfer all wiring & only start removing bits once you know the engine runs.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 5^th, 2013, 7:54pm

Well that's not really an option, I'd have to buy yet another donor to then. This won't run before I'm done.

I know some people have done these conversions and someone posted how to extract the pats-loom, too bad I can't find the thread.

What I know so far:

PATS wiring goes through OBD-connector and meets instrument cluster at one point. PATS-signal seems to be mixed with signals from other objects.

Orange box leads to pats too, but I'm sure it's not required to make the engine run. Someone also claimed that pats meets central locking and airbag modules too.. However I'm sure that neither one of them is required to have the engine running........

The funny question is, why does it meet those objects, if it doesn't appear to learn anything from them?

I wonder if it would be possible to simulate the handshake between pats and the ecu? Like wiring them together and powering it up?

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Tompion on Nov 5^th, 2013, 8:09pm

I would imagine it goes to the OBD plug simply so you can read the codes, if you've kept the PATS light & wiring you should be able to read the codes from that.

Very late cars are said to have PATS built into the instrument cluster, but whether PATS wiring goes there on earlier cars I haven't a clue.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 5^th, 2013, 9:18pm

on 11/05/13 at 20:09:20, Tompion wrote:

Well, the chassis loom I'm operating is from a -95 2.0i 16v DOHC Auto. I've got another PATS-loom(a lot of wires cut, needs way more work to get working than the full loom I got) which has exactly same connections.

I'm 100% positive about that a blue/black wire goes from PATS-module to the cluster(or a wire from cluster goes to the PATS-module)

Some guy once posted on this topic and if I remember correctly, the loom doesn't have to be very full, because there's not many things that affect the pats-module. RS2000 experts also claim that PATS(external box) is very easily bypassed, yet nobody has backed up their claims so far.

I'm trying to extract full circuit of PATS off the loom tomorrow. All help is very welcome!

____________

I was wrong. The connector wasn't for instrument cluster. It looks exactly like instrument cluster connector but it's not. It's located very close to steering wheel wiper and signal light arm connectors.

Can anyone supply info? Possibly central locking/remote locking module? That would make sense, because PATS is part of the antitheft system.

Confirm. PATS has at least one wire in common with central locking module. However I don't think this wire is fatal for running.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 7^th, 2013, 4:37pm

UPDATE(sorry for triple post):

I'm progressing. I will post pictures and a brief "how-to" on this when I get this working. I think this is very needed "mod" because Scorpio is becoming even more affordable kit car/sierra/etc engine donator. DOHC POWER!

I tracked down some other wires and I'm now sure that the PATS is connected to central locking module. According to Puma-Dave's post somewhere on this forum, pats could be simplified down to module, 'some' of the wiring and DLC connector. He didn't write anything about central locking module, so I will leave it untouched for now.

Next I'm going to check what relays and fuses this part of the loom would have to be connected to. Then I'm doing the engine swap.

I know some of you have done similar engine transfers. I know of two finnish guys who have done this, but both of them are arrogant finnish beer-crazed nutheads, so i'm definitely NOT going to get any help or advice from them. I really don't understand what is this secrecy about, because revealing this wouldn't make Scorpio-theft any easier than it is already..

Seeing that even I could steal two Scorpio's with the equipment I have (two pats modules, two key sets and two ignition locks, keys are obviously programmed to the modules and fit the locks). I actually tried it when I bought the donor car, because I had another "pats set" lying around.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Tompion on Nov 7^th, 2013, 8:50pm

Dave's post is here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1311583536

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 7^th, 2013, 9:58pm

on 11/07/13 at 20:50:19, Tompion wrote:

Dave's post is here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1311583536

Quote:

It has to be wired up in a simplified fashion, as it was in the donor car, and unless it is a really late one it will have a separate PATS Module, which you need, plus it's associated wiring, diagnostic plug, key reader and the right key, and the LED from the dash.

When you have the correct parts, it is quite easy to wire up, as you only need to connect the basic wires, and don't need all the ones that dissapear to CCM, Alarm etc

There! This is not the post I was talking about but overall has pretty much the same information.

- Dash led, check.
- DLC-connector, check.
- PATS module and associated key, check.
- Unsimplified wiring loom, check.

Technically, according to Dave, only connections between pats, ecu, led and dlc would be needed. Obviously got to supply it some electricity and ground. This also explains what this one Finnish guy was mumbling about "I had to spare the Scorpio fusebox".

I'm just going to leave the wiring how it is now. When it runs, I'll start cutting out wires one by one, until it won't run anymore. Then I'll undo the cut and continue.

And for the record, I'll take high resolution pictures of the whole leftover loom, wiring and install to help people that are interested in such engine swap.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Tompion on Nov 7^th, 2013, 10:07pm

I believe that PATS takes no part once the engine is running so cutting wires once it's running may be a bad idea, as presumably if you cut a PATS wire the engine might keep running but won't restart.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 7^th, 2013, 10:32pm

on 11/07/13 at 22:07:06, Tompion wrote:

I believe that PATS takes no part once the engine is running so cutting wires once it's running may be a bad idea, as presumably if you cut a PATS wire the engine will keep running but won't restart.

I'm aware of that. I failed at expressing myself, I'm going to look at the led. Should tell me if it works/doesn't work?

Anyway, when I talked about central locking module, I mean't the CCM. I still don't understand why pats goes to the CCM, if it's not required connection.. but oh well. Possibly PATS also monitors other fishy stuff happening in the car? Does the PATS activate if someone breaks/tries to break into the car? That would explain why it's not required connection. I've heard of a Scorpio that ran without the CCM, so..

Theoretically, I should be able to cut *all* ccm-related multiplex wires out. However, I'm going to spare them for now and work on integrating it.

As you may have guessed already, I'll keep this forum updated.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Tompion on Nov 7^th, 2013, 10:41pm

CCM isn't involved, break ins will have no effect on PATS:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm

Perhaps they're just sharing the wire to the warning light.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 8^th, 2013, 8:34am

Plausible.

I went through Dave's Puma diary but it didn't really lead me anywhere. Didn't tell me anything new.

I found a picture that shows major part of the wiring but unfortunately can't view it properly on phone screen. I don't think it'll lead me any further but I'll give it a shot.

Anyway, I should have enough loom to run PATS. I'll simplify it as I go(definitely not going to leave half of the frog-eye loom under my dash).

Am I right, PATS fuses are 16 and 17? Marked as "electrics". I'm glad I saved the central fuse box(sold the other box for 100€).

Can anyone recommend me a Scorpio-capable OBD-reader?

Edit:

Making progress. I cut a few wires to extract, marked all cuts with piece of tape.(both ends of the wire marked "cut 1, cut 2...", so I'll be able to undo it easily).

I also did some other tape markings and for now I'm pretty confident with this.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Tompion on Nov 8^th, 2013, 3:31pm

The Alex Peper lead has always been recommended (assuming you have a laptop to connect it to), there are various versions depending on whether you want to read ABS & use it on other vehicles:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/obd2a.htm

However an ELM327 connected to a laptop with free Forscan software works very well, I’ve posted about it here in the OBD advice section – I ought to start a new thread with a more suitable title ::) :
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=OBD;action=display;num=1373996431

I’ve since tried a very cheap Bluetooth ELM327 from China via Amazon & it worked fine – cost £5.94 with a USB dongle.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 9^th, 2013, 11:43am

Great, thanks. I like Chinese options, been ordering a lot of (customised) products from there lately(directly from the factories).

Anyway,

The first part is now completely separated. 41 wires cut and marked for rejoining later.

I also found something weird. PATS-wires from the ECU(blue and gray wire) travel to a connector and from there, they go to the second part of the chassis loom. They don't "do" anything there, they travel directly to a green wide square-ish connector, which possibly connects them to the last part of the chassis loom. I don't understand it.

I've got to track down their exact location just to make sure I haven't mistaken the wires, as they could also be fuel pump wires?

So far I'm good, everything is in order and ready for rejoining. I just want to make sure that I have complete circuit of the pats-wires, before I do anything unreversable.

I contacted Dave on this, no respond yet but hoping to get some valuable info.

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 9^th, 2013, 5:42pm

Just for the benefit of others on here, here below is some info that I sent to rixivee earlier in a pm...................

Mods please don't panic, there is nothing below that will enable some little scrot bag to steal a Scorpio LOL ;D

In fact, even if I posted up the wiring diagram, (which I won't), said car tea leaf still wouldn't be able to steal the car as he would need a matching module, key reader and key, plus he'd have to strip out half the car to get at all the bits and rewire them LOL ;)

That's why PATS is so good, and I recommend anyone doing any Ford Engine transplant to retain it !!

Even though I can now switch PATS off in the ECU's by re -flashing them ;D ;D ;D

Anyway I digress, here's the pm..................

I used bu g g er all of the Scorpio Wiring, except for a brand new "Engine Loom" itself, from Injectors, Sensors etc to the big square plug.
Then from there I made my own loom, from chopping up the wiring that goes back to the EECV ECU Plug, to keep all the colours correct, plugs for vacuum solenoids, EDIS Ignition, etc etc and took the necessary Earths and +ve's from the Puma Loom / Fuse & Relay Box to the EECV ECU connector.

You will have to install the Bug Eye Ignition Barrel and Key Reader in / onto your Granada Scorpio Steering lock, AFAIK knowing Fords that should be easy.

Send me an email to footerbare@btinternet.com so I get your email address and I'll send you a copy of my PATS wiring diagram, which is dead easy....................

There are 4 wires going to the Key Reader from the PATS Module.
Then you only need 7 more to allow the Engine to run plus one more if you want the Starter Relay Cranking Inhibit feature ;)

You do not need any connections to the CCM or the orange module, these can be junked, the CCM shares the LED for the burglar alarm, and also if the alarm is triggered before the engine is started it sends a "theft detected" signal to the PATS.
These wires are not needed, PATS will operate as a stand alone system without them and then it is impossible to steal your car without the correct key ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by rixivee on Nov 10^th, 2013, 1:18pm

on 11/09/13 at 17:42:14, Dave2302 wrote:

Exactly. This is the only reason why I am actually trying to do it with the original equipment and loom. PATS counts as "theft alarm" in Finland and therefore it does lower the insurance costs, which will already rise because of the engine swap(2.0L 88kw -> 2.3L -> 107kw).

Unfortunately I will have to get a Ford technical advisor to sign papers for the PATS. Already ordered like 15 pages of information about the swap(Finnish inspectors wouldn't accept the engine swap without those papers).

And why am I doing such engine swap? Well, my 2.0i 8v didn't pass emissions and I believe it's either internal engine fault or somekind of hardcore wiring fault -> it's not worth it to fix. 2.3i 16v DOHC is a different story, because even if it has some things to fix, it's still worth it to fix.

Big thanks to Dave, for guiding me(and now possibly others also) further with this!

Title: Re: Extracting engine wiring from frog-eye loom
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 11^th, 2013, 10:40am

Here is more info sent to Rixi..............

Yes it is simple.

Also worth mentioning that if you didn't have the right Key, but had a matching PATS Module and Key Reader, then you can use FDS 2000 or Snap On Solus to code any Ford Chipped Key to operate it. PATS does not have to match the ECU on these cars ;)

I recoded it on my Puma so I have the one Key that came with the Puma. This fits all locks and has the buttons to work the Central Locking.

Starter Inhibit :-

Pin 4 from PATS module plug supplies an earth when it sees the right key, then it goes to the Auto Box Inhibitor Switch and from there it earths the Starter Relay.

If you are running a Manual Gearbox you can run this straight to the Starter Relay to earth it so it won't crank over until PATS sees the right Key.

If you don't connect it you'll need to provide an earth to the Starter Relay at the Fuse Box, or link out the Inhibitor Switch Wiring.

Then it will crank over regardless of key, but if incorrect key is used the Engine will not run for more than 4 seconds because PATS will not send "Key OK" signal to the ECU, so ECU shuts down the Fuel Injectors.

I found all this out by carefully stripping my Scorpio Wiring Loom and rigging PATS Module, Key Reader, LED etc up on the bench, then connecting Snap On Scanner to DLC and doing various tests with and without the right Key until I got it right !!

Note that as we don't use the CCM / Standard Ford Alarm system the LED does not flash any more when the Key is removed, but it will come on briefly as you turn the Ignition on, then go off if all is well, or flash a code if someting is not right with PATS, as it should do.

Also worth a mention here that this only works for Fords fitted with the same PATS as the Scorpios, i.e with separate module, the Mondeo's of the same era had the same system, even the Module part number is the same!!

This will not work with the later PATS 'C' cars where the PATS is contained within the ECU, no separate Module.

However, these are still do - able if you have a matching Key Reader and ECU (and either have the right Key or can reprogram it).
In fact they are easier to wire up, as most all of it is in the ECU ;)

HTH

Cheers Dave