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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> Failure to start.
        
(Message started by: Simmo on Nov 28^th, 2015, 8:37pm)

Title: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Nov 28^th, 2015, 8:37pm

At 4 oclock this afternoon I went to start my car which had been idle since last night at about 7pm. The engine turned over without issue BUT would not start. I could think of no reasonable explanation as it has a new fuel cut off loom and was working perfectly last night.
Mindful of the fact that these cars require a great deal of power to actually START them I put it on charge and went off for my pint!
A few moments ago(4 hours later) I turned the key and it fired first time. I have left it on charge overnight.
The point of this missive is simply to emphasise that sometimes it is the simple things that we need to look at.
In my case the battery is less than a year old BUT the car does only short trips and a lot of those (to the pub in the evenings! ;D) are of short duration with of course all lights and air con on.
Hopefully all will be well in the morning once the battery has fully charged
Posted as a simple and perhaps timely reminder as winter sets in. :)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Nov 28^th, 2015, 9:24pm

If you only do short journeys then get a solar trickle charger from somewhere like Maplins - plugs in the 12v ciggy lighter socket.
I have 1 in my Jeep & it is permanently connected and sits on top of the dash on the passenger side.

Is your alternator working correctly ?
Think I have a brand new one in my stash if you need one...

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Nov 28^th, 2015, 9:56pm

Thank you Mike. It was raining at 4 so I did the minimum. I'll put the tester on the car tomorrow and check the alternator.
Fancy you having a spare !!!! :D ;D
;)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Glyn on Nov 28^th, 2015, 11:23pm

Pleased to see you are a responsible person and drive TO the pub . Obviously you don't drive back !!
Glyn

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Nov 29^th, 2015, 4:19pm

Gentlemen. A frustrating day ???. Car would not start despite being on charge all night. Decided to swap the battery and the first thing that happened was the fan started without the ignition on! ??? ::) Original battery left on charge all morning. Showing over 12v at lunch time. Left it standing whilst we had lunch. Returned to it about 3pm. No sign of significant drop in voltage so replaced it on the car still registering over 12v. Car would not start! >:( Fixed charger to it again.Went to insert the radio code and the display was very faint. As I inserted the code the display gradually came to life fully and the radio functioned correctly.
Battery is currently on charge on the car still.

Car started perfectly with the alternative battery. Alternator charging correctly.

Any pearls of wisdom please? :)

My next step is to put the battery from the Scorp on to the other car and see what happens! That will have to wait until tomorrow however.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by a900one on Nov 29^th, 2015, 5:54pm

Have a look at this https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+battery+state+of+charge+indicator&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUwq-pmbbJAhVq9HIKHdb-BO8QsAQIOw&biw=1138&bih=528&dpr=1.2 Have you a meter that gives you points of a volt. Click on the one with the pictures.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Nov 29^th, 2015, 6:14pm

Yes I do have a tester. The one I have (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Battery-Alternator-Tester-Car-Motorbike-with-6-LED-Indicators-Magnetic-UK-/310840741947)will not show anything IF the voltage is below 11.5. Above that it will tell you if the battery is full or needs charging. It also tells you what charge the alternator is putting out,once the car is running, and that is how I know that the alternator is ok. Tested that when we started it with the replacement battery. My mate put his meter across the old battery after I'd tried to start the car and the voltage had dropped from above twelve to just over six! I think that indicates that under load it simply can't cope. I'll take it off the car in the morning and take it to the guy who looks after the Scorp and get him to put his tester across the battery. That should give me an answer. The battery is under warranty so hopefully if that is the problem it will be a no cost solution. Fingers crossed! ;)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Glyn on Nov 29^th, 2015, 7:10pm

My money is on the battery. Had a similar problem myself on a 24v 6 months ago. Charged up nicely to 13v no load but would not take any load and if left on the car overnight without the charger was registering less than 2v in the morning.
The battery was 10 months old, Bosch and was replaced under guarantee.
Glyn

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Andycan on Nov 29^th, 2015, 9:15pm

I agree with Glyn that the battery is not man enough for the scorpio probably due to getting old or maybe a cell is on the way out.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Nov 30^th, 2015, 9:29am

Gentleman. Going to the car early today I saw that the battery was fully charged. Have just returned from the factors who put a load test on it and it passed!. Refitted it to the car and the radio display came up correctly (as opposed to last night) and she started first time! :) I have no idea what it was all about but I guess time will tell if it was just a 'Scorpio' hiccup or there is an underlying issue yet to be identified. Watch this space! ;)

Thanks for all your interest. :)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Glyn on Nov 30^th, 2015, 12:22pm

Glad it is sorted.
Just a word of warning, when I posted that my battery was at fault I forgot to mention that I had twice been to the garage to have that battery tested and their smart battery tester had said it was ok and went through the process of checking the "resting" current drain in case there was an electrical fault on the car. Two months later their smart tester came up with "replace battery".
Hope you don't have the same.
Glyn

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Jonnycab on Nov 30^th, 2015, 12:36pm

Hi Mike.....you said that the fan started running without ignition on as soon as you put anther battery in. Makes me wonder whether you may have a damp fusebox or PCM ? :-/

Hope you sort it out mate...all the best, Jon :)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Nov 30^th, 2015, 1:12pm

Thank you Jon. The area round the boxes is bone dry and, of course, there is a battery cover fitted so I hope the issue is just a hiccup. I'll test the battery in the morning for any sign of current drain. Regards, Mike.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 5^th, 2015, 7:18am

Gentlemen. The saga continues :( I have used the car for a few days. Yesterday I went to my mates and on going to leave had the same issue. Car turned over BUT would not fire. We removed the rocker cover, pulled a plug and tested for a spark. NONE. Battery full, fuseboxes dry. Thinking back over the issue I recalled that each time the battery had been changed the car would start BUT we knew the battery was OK, it had been tested and the present voltage was well over 12v and only dropped slightly when I was cranking it. (Mate had his meter on it during cranking.) I removed the positive battery terminal for a few seconds, replaced it, the fans came on.....ignition was OFF...... and the car started first time!! :) It seems therefore that there is an issue with a sensor which is cleared by disconnecting the battery?? ??? When I got home I put my hand held scanner on and there were no fault codes stored?. ??? Somehow this issue seems to have a link to the fans which clearly should not start up like this. I removed a number of fuses, including F31,F34,F37,F42 and F44. F37 is said to cover the engine management system BUT it also appears in a thread about the fans. The fuses are all pristine.

Any ideas please? :)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 5^th, 2015, 7:48am

When you say fans, do you mean the heater fan or the radiator fan ?
Could be a sticking relay ?

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 5^th, 2015, 8:33am

Mike, It is the radiator fans which come on before the ignition is switched on. They go off when the car is started! :)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Snoopy on Dec 5^th, 2015, 8:37am

Mike have a look at the eddis as well I seem to remember it is situated under the offside headlight.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by amigafan2003 on Dec 5^th, 2015, 1:06pm

What is the PATS light on the dashboard doing when you try to crank it and it wont start?

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 5^th, 2015, 2:34pm

on 12/05/15 at 13:06:56, amigafan2003 wrote:

What is the PATS light on the dashboard doing when you try to crank it and it wont start?

Hopefully I won't find out!! ;D but I will check if/next time I have a problem.
I have pulled the connectors off both the Edis and the fan relay, sprayed them with contact cleaner, and refitted them. All the contacts on both the units and the connectors looked good and there is no sign of duff wiring. The only thing I did notice was that the pins in the Edis looked a bit white BUT I wonder if that could be a grease residue from initial installation. As far as I know it has never been apart before.

The absence of a fault code seems to rule out a sensor BUT I will leave the scanner in the car and check if it happens again before I do any work on the car. ;)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 13^th, 2015, 3:08pm

I hope I'm not tempting fate, particularly on this date!, BUT I have used the car normally for the last week without any issues. ;D I can only conclude therefore that it was an issue with the EDIS connection which seems to have been cured by spraying with contact cleaner. The car does seem to run more smoothly as well so I hope that is the end of the matter.
The scanner and a spanner remain in the car! ;)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Snoopy on Dec 14^th, 2015, 8:23am

Don't you just love the easy fixes!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 16^th, 2015, 9:49pm

Spoke too soon!! ??? ??? ::)
I used the car today and did well over a hundred miles. Stopped several times for a variety of periods including going to the pub !. No issues. Came home for dinner,parked up outside as normal. No issues.
A short while ago I realised I had left my glasses in the car. Going from the house in to the garage I could hear an unusual noise. Opening the garage door I find that the cooling fans are roaring away!! :o :o The only way to stop them was to pull fuse 44. All parts are bone dry the wiring is sound. I suspect the relay but it seems the only way to check is to swap it over with a known good one? I thought that once the power was removed things might clear BUT replacing the fuse immediately brought the fans back on. ???

Anyone got any ideas and does anyone have a relay?. Large green one fitted behing the offside headlight. Watch this space!.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Glyn on Dec 16^th, 2015, 11:42pm

If the relay was stuck wouldn't you have noticed the fans going ballistic when you parked the car ?
Was it both fans going full belt?
Fuse 39 supplies permanently 12v to fan 1. If on slow speed the fans are connected in series and fan 2 gets it's feed from fan 1 hence fuse. 39
When the relay operates for high speed it switches fan 1 to ground and supplies fan 2 with 12v from fuse44
Pulling fuse44 should only stop fan 2 in high speed
I had a problem with fan 1 rather like yours and it turned out to be the fan wiring close to the fan where it had rubbed against the fan guard and rubbed through the negative thus grounding the fan and operating it at full speed.
It was intermittent

Glyn

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by TiberiuS on Dec 17^th, 2015, 2:43am

Mike,

As I was just reading page 1 of the thread, I was thinking 'it's going to be more than a tired battery'.

My gut feeling would be an earth fault, but from what Glyn says it sounds that fan 2 is permanently connected to ground anyhow (fans in series for low speed, in parallel for high speed with F44 supplying power to the lower fan, which makes sense).

The relay could be faulty, but in my experience relays tend to fail open circuit (i.e. just don't switch on, or don't conduct well), which would cause the opposite fault to what you're experiencing. That said, a fan motor is a difficult load to drive and if the relay is old and worn the contacts could possibly be welding (sticking when it switches the motor on), you can try to test it but probably the movement from taking it out will temporarily free it up so it might test OK on a multimeter yet be faulty in reality.

What you can do if the fans are still running when you put the fuse back in, is find out which terminals power the relay coil, pull the relay and if you get 12V across those, then it's whatever drives the relay which is at fault.

IF it's the relay and you can't get hold of one this side of the holiday, you should be able to substitute a different power relay as long as the contacts can handle the current - when I had problems last on our old Mondeo I managed to connect another relay using male spade terminals on jumper leads which were attached to the terminals on the new relay...not ideal but it worked OK.

Hope this helps - I'm too rusty when it comes to these cars to be much help, but I am an electronics guy so hopefully that's some use :)

Bruce.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 17^th, 2015, 6:40am

Glyn/Bruce. Thank you both for your thoughts.

Glynn. I take your point BUT there has been no sign to date of the fans running when the car has been locked up until last night!. I can't be sure if it was BOTH fans but I hope to check later today in daylight if my mate can come and give me a hand. Certainly the noise would indicate that both were going at full belt. I will check the wiring out but at first glance all seems sound.

Bruce. I'm glad the system makes sense to you! ??? The one thing I deduced from the diagram and indeed the whole saga is that somehow the fans are getting a feed outside the ignition circuit. The diagram indicates that there is a permanent live feed to fan 1 via fuse 39 and there is a link to the relay so my simple mind says that might be a possible route of the power supply. It is an aspect I will look at today. Last night in the rain all I wanted to do was stop the fans and keep things dry and pulling F44 did that. Only after checking the site did I see that F39 and indeed F37 are also involved in the fan circuit. F37 is only live with the ignition ON. Typing this I seem to recall that at one point yesterday when I switched the ignition ON I did hear the fans start up?. Might this again point to the relay as it is the common denominator?

The relay, as far as I know is original and thus 19 years old! As for testing it I have no idea how to do that in much the same way as I have no idea how to find out which terminals power the coil! You will by now have gathered that I am not an electronics guy! ;D As for jury rigging another relay although I understand what you mean I suspect, with my lack of knowledge,the likely result would be catastrophic! I have trawled e-bay etc and Google but I can find no sign of a correct relay so I guess they are no longer available.

Will carry on today and report back. Thanks again for your feedback. ;) I have also had a word with Tompion who is similarly 'on the case'. :)

Mike

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 17^th, 2015, 7:42am

Probably got a spare relay in my stash... ;)

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 17^th, 2015, 7:48am

I had a feeling you might have Mike!! ;D

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Tompion on Dec 17^th, 2015, 9:44am

Disregarding the chance of major loom damage (crumbling wires) or the need for a fusebox rebuild. For the big green relay to turn on both fans at high speed without the ignition on would require 2 faults:
BK/WH from the PCM to be earthed
VT from fuse 37 to be live
There is earth & power from other wires within the relay but not having looked inside one I wouldn’t know if internal failure allowing this to happen is likely.

As far as I can make out from the diagrams unlike the earth fault Glynn had the fan from fuse 44 is already earthed & assuming the contacts haven’t somehow closed within the relay would require a short between OG/BU (fuse 44) & the fan OG/GN.

If it helps there’s a loom shown on the first link in this thread:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1280261377;start=1

I assume power from fuse 44 is coming down the battery side wing along the front & to the relay. Presumably the fan wire OG/GN only runs from connector 8 or 9 back to the relay with a possible loop back where the wire bundles meet the main loom.

I'll have a play later to see if another relay could cause this but I think it's unlikely as the fans initially go off.

Dave

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Andycan on Dec 17^th, 2015, 11:13am

I had this problem on my scorpio years ago. I can only remember that it was something simple like a earth to one of the fan plugs.

Title: Re: Failure to start.
Post by Simmo on Dec 17^th, 2015, 11:50am

Replaced F44 this morning. All quiet. Just checked the fan wiring and connectors and all seems sound.Relay is now loose and I will tie it up so I can access it readily for the time being. Will check the earth connection which is near the relay while I'm down there. More to follow! :-/