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        General >> Off Topic Subjects >> ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
        
(Message started by: dannynic on May 12^th, 2007, 9:55pm)

Title: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by dannynic on May 12^th, 2007, 9:55pm

Just to let anyone know that cares to listen, took a 6 month old ST TDCi out for a test drive today; lovely car, well built, reasonbly quick but not rapid. The reason I was looking was the thought that the scorpio only does 28mpg and is 10 years old might get unreliable etc etc.

But guess what, after driving the mondeo I think the scorpio is the far superior car, many may think I'm mad perhaps but the scorpios got much more standard useful equipment (memory seats for me & the mrs driving and sunroof to name but a few). And the scorpios quieter, not just the engine but the road noise as well. I know the mondeo is strictly in a different class to the scorpio but its 10 years old now, wheres the progress. Except in the fuel consumption of course! Needless to say I will be keeping the scorpio I think and saving myself 16K!
I do think the new (ish) mondeo is a big improvement on the old one but its not up to scorpio standards yet, perhaps the brand new one may be, perhaps have a look again in a couple of years. 8)

Has any one else driven newer, thought more of cars and thought the scorpio alot better? I reckon there ;)must be a few.

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by Paul B on May 12^th, 2007, 10:17pm

on 05/12/07 at 21:55:46, dannynic wrote:

.... the scorpio only does 28mpg...

Only? :o

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by jonnycab on May 12^th, 2007, 10:41pm

When I got rid of my old Scorpio, I bought a 2001 new shape Mondeo 2.0 Zetec on a 'Y' plate, thinking that it may be step up from the older Scorpio.

After only 6 months of owning the Mondeo, I was starting to wish that I'd kept the Scorp & after a year, I was looking around for another Scorp.

Finally got one after 18 months of Mondeo ownership & not before time...that Mondeo was driving me mad.

You couldn't hold a conversation at speed because of the road noise...you had to almost shout.

The tailgate would creek all the time, along with all the cheap thin plastic interior trim....& the seats had no comfort value whatsoever, just hard....a bit like the ride.

I wonder if the new Mondeo will be a step closer to the Scorpio :-/

P.S...had a guy jump in the back last night, he looked around, felt the sumptuous leather seats & said.....
"I don't mind paying taxi prices when I get in a car like this, this is a proper cab"....got a nice tip as well ;D

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by cossiejamie on May 13^th, 2007, 2:16pm

Read a write up about the new mondeo thats due out soon a week or so back in the paper.
They reckon its even bigger than the scorpio, but that was the only reference to it.
But i haven`t got the £20,000 or so asking price :o

Maybe in ten years, when its only worth a grand or so 8)

Jamie

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by dannynic on May 13^th, 2007, 4:54pm

I do get about 28mpg on average but I do drive like a grandad and mostly long journeys. I even got 32mpg avearge out of a tank once! ;)

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by v4-max on May 13^th, 2007, 5:01pm

my other half has an 03 mondeo, i drive it from time to time, seats feel rock hard power steering feels really heavy, and lots of noise at normal motorway speeds. i wont be replacing the scorp for one when the time comes.

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by TiberiuS on May 13^th, 2007, 9:15pm

[] with V4-max

Mate of mine has a 55 reg Mondeo TDCi (2.1 or 2.2, can't remember). It's firmer on the road than my Mk1, bigger and has more toys but the ride seemed harder, there was more road noise and I could really hear the rumbling from the diesel at low revs. Not sure what to make of the newer Fords, Ford have tried to shift the Mondeo and Focus up market torwards luxury car territory. But the interior in the Mk3 Mondeo looks really cheap IMO, all that aluminium style plastic looks tacky and the plastics on the dash and door cards look flimsy.

I've got a Mk1 1.8 Zetec 'Verona' as my daily runner - bought new by my uncle in 1996, well maintained - reliable, economic (30-35mpg but then it rarely sees life above 2500rpm, I'm not a hard driver, despite my age ;)). It's got no oomph (couldn't overtake a milk float), unrefined at speed...but, it's not trying to be a lucury car, just a solid family hatch and not too bad on comfort either...no gizmos, no optional extras, just does exactly what it says on the tin. I learned to drive in a Mk1 Focus and although it was great after the 3 pot Corsa I'd been learning in I thought pretty much the same about the Focus as I do about the new Mondeos.

On paper the Verona's got the same 0-60 as my 2.3 Scorp did but I don't think it could keep up even if I took 2 cylinders out of the Scorp ::). I'm not knocking the Mondy, they're great. But as a replacement for a Scorpio, the Mk4 would really have to be an improvement in my mind.

sorry guys, bit of a rant but you get my view ;)

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by Grumpyg1t on May 13^th, 2007, 11:13pm

[] with all of the above i had a 56 plate Mondeo GhiaX hire car from work about a month ago and you guys are right there is no comparison. I'm sure alot of the road noise etc. is down to the FWD nature of the Mondy, if you want a cruiser then it has to be RWD.

Rich

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by dannynic on May 14^th, 2007, 8:51pm

Thanks for the replies I thought I might be alone in my views. ;D

Think it just proves how good the scorpio is compared to other cars. 8)

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by big_neil on May 14^th, 2007, 9:24pm

the ford TDCI engine is a no brainer, there,s been a lot of problems with it!

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by sector-9 on May 14^th, 2007, 11:24pm

If anybody wants to swap a mk3 Mondeo TDCi for my rusting Scorpio TD then I'd rip their hand off! Sure, the scorp is nice and comfy but it doesn't compare on power or economy, and even the LX Mondeo's have as many toys as my exec scorp...

Still, I'm planning to keep my scorp for another year assuming the MOT goes well in October...

Darren

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by Dave2302 on May 15^th, 2007, 1:44pm

Hi all,

Well last week I had a 52 plate, 37 k mile X type Jag come in for a Auto box rebuild. 4WD model, nice looking car. Took it back to the guy yesterday, about 40 mile trip town and motorway.

(For those who dontknow, I mention it here cos they are mechanically same as Mondeo). ;)

What a let down :(

I've had "proper" Jaguars in the past, of all descriptions and loved them.
Now bear in mind this was a good condition and genuine low mileage car, with no problems!

This thing was a pile of ....

Road noise and wind noise, working very hard with lots of mechanical noise at high cruising speeds, generally felt cheap and nasty.

Won't be trading my Ultima in for one of them }{ }{

Regards Dave

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by TiberiuS on May 15^th, 2007, 9:04pm

Dave, just don't you dare go over onto the X Type forums and tell them they're driving a Mondeo once they've paid for the badge engineering :-X :-/ {}

If you want the equivalent to a modern Scorpio, you've gotta shoot for an S Type or more...I was looking at an X 2.5 SE on a 53 plate a couple of months back (browsing, you know ::)) and what a come down after my Sport and Double Six...cars which were engineered like tanks and could shift - despite all the bad press they got. This thing was more like a 3 Series Beemer :(. Jag are going out of business and costing Ford a lot of money anyway, if there's any chance of Ford making another luxury saloon for the UK market, you'll have to wait for them to ditch Jag and probably Volvo :(.

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by Dave2302 on May 17^th, 2007, 5:30pm

[]

After owning E types, several V12's and series 3 XJ's the only more modern Jag that I drove which I would call nice was my mates XJR........

But its also got modded stainless exhaust and upped boost pressure. Goes like stink, handles ok and sounds awesome. ;D Eats Fuel :o

I've driven loads of S types, ( do lots of transmissions on them), they're ok but think I still prefer a nice Ultima :)

Regards Dave

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by TiberiuS on May 17^th, 2007, 7:53pm

Dave, I like my Sport but I loved the V12. But, 12mpg in town, 18 on the motorway if I was lucky. It could really have done with a 4 or 5 speed autobox. And there was the wiring problems, mine was mint and came to me for next to nothing (£200) but a lot of the wiring loom in the front end had been re-run (bodged). The Sport is quick, economical compared to the S3, well built, reliable, tight handling...but the post Ford cars aren't the same as the older ones, lost a lot of the vintage feel and character.

Was a great car despite the problems, was badged as a Sov V12, solent blue on pepperpots but had red piped magnolia leather and sheepskin rugs from a Daimler...pity I had to let it go, I still kick myself :'(

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by Dave2302 on May 18^th, 2007, 9:53am

Bruce,

[]

You have summed it up with "Post Ford" and "Vintage Character". ;)

As you say your Sport is from the same stable as the XJR I spoke of, and IMHO these models in all guises are the last of the real Jaguars. True, the earlier ones suffered wiring problems, along with oil leaks, but that was what real Jag's were about.... we were enthusiastic back then and loved working on them ::)

And as for wiring issues...........look at the modern cars }{

The worst fuel consumption had to be the V12 Etype I had, it had carburrettors on it and was a disaster !! But it didn't matter back then, I had no mortgage and a good job so my money went on anything petrol powered and the fuel to go in it ;D.

The fuel injected V12's were a lot better, my XJS and series 3 were quite good on fuel (comparitively speaking) ;D

However, when talking fuel consumption, did you ever drive a Jensen Interceptor ? I had a big block 4wd one back in the eighties, I think it was nearly gallons to the mile when driven hard :o 7 litre V8 4wd and a bloomin' great holley carb, which was just like a bucket with throttle butterflies in the bottom }{ }{ }{

Mind you the boat I owned before this one had two 500ci Supercharged big blocks in it, "Brown Trousers" it was called, and it held about 500 quids worth of fuel !! (that was when it was 3 quid a gallon) and beleive me it wouldn't go that far on it, you could maybe do Medway to France, but you'd be filling it up to get back LOL

Regards Dave

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by podge on May 18^th, 2007, 2:21pm

I had to rely on my mate last year to organise my MOT and have two new tyres fitted due to a knee operation thus rendering me not being able to drive for several weeks.
He changes his car every three years and always goes for the large family car, his present car being the Rover 75, but I was very surprised when he piped up that the Scorpio was the smoothest ride he had encoutered, I did not take all that in at first and was just happy that he carried out the tasks for me.
So reading the comments in this thread reminded me again and just had to let you all know.
podge.

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by DazRSK on May 30^th, 2007, 3:06pm

Well guys - bit of a long post here - I have been the official turncoat here and can actually tell you how both of these cars stand up against each other. Having run a 2.3, followed by a TD Scorpio for 30K miles in 2006 and followed it with an ST TDCi since Jan 2007 and already done 12K in that one. Also working in Ford, I can tell you what the outlook is.

First out - they are different cars in terms of Status so we are not strictly comparing apples with apples here. The Scorpio was an exec car and had a price tag to suit. A Mondeo could never have a £27-30k price tag on it - it has the blue oval and that is worth nothing.

Some have said that the next time Ford make a blue oval exec will be when they delete / get rid of the Jag & Volvo brands - it looks like both won't happen. The 2 brands are in for the long ride and Ford are more likely to drop the Mondeo once it stops selling so well because a blue oval cannot command those prices either. What I will think we will see in the future is Ford and Vauxhall making the small cars and up to medium family cars and the premium brands making the larger Mondeo cars upwards. Sad but probably true.

It's true that Ford have made Jag an inferior brand to what is was 20 or 30 years back but they have arrested the reliability issues. In this world where it not expected for you to be under a car in a pit fixing the latest issue with your £30-40k car, I think, for all the failings of Ford with their own camp and the Jag camp, they have at least stopped that - and that is important to the consumer today.

Back to the comparison - the ST is a hard ride. I should have gone for a Ghia X if I wanted to compare directly against the Scorpio. the Scorpio has got a lot of extras for its day and still for today - but you did have to pay for them. Don't forget £30k in 1995 is £45k+ today - so value for money - the Mondeo is good. Would you pay £45-50k for a new Ford today ?

Ride - well the Scorp was more comfortable and prob quieter. But then I am running on 40 series tyres in the MOndeo which make a hell of a din. Engine note - Mondeo is quieter. Handling – Mondeo is better

Performance - once up on the roll, the 155bhp TTDCi is quick. It's still 8.5 secs off the mark - so it's still pretty quick for an oil burner. Definitely prefer the rwd set up than fwd.

Style – Scorpio is more unique. Mondeo is prob better loved

The main difference - the Scorpio took the challenge to the BMW and Merc and did well until its latter years - and that was purely to do with class. The Mondeo has never aspired to do this - it fights the VW and the Jap brands. The Scorpio was / is a good car

My Mondeo is 2 yrs old - the Scorp was over 10. I had to come to a decision in late November while it was p***ing down with rain and yet another night under the bonnet to patch it up for the next day, whether I wanted to be doing this to an old car forever. I don't have those issues with the Mondeo (yet) - but they may come when it is older. All I do know is that I managed 31mpg out of the TD Scorpio vs nearly 50mpg out of the Mondeo. With my mile pa, it's a no brainer.

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by TiberiuS on May 30^th, 2007, 6:14pm

Daz, good points you make there. BUT:

Jag is going out of business, you've only got to look at the sales figures...not pretty, something like a 20% year on year drop since 2003. There was talk a few months back that JCB would make a bid for them, but now it seems that won't happen. I wouldn't go as far as saying Ford have made Jag inferior, despite all the bad press they get, their top end cars (XK and XJ) are still superb, Ford just don't understand them and they've lost a lot of the appeal and character they used to have. True, Ford solved the reliability problems, a car as reliable as the X300 wouldn't have been possible in the dark days of BL.

In 1995 my XJ cost £46k, even a base model 3.2 Sport with part cloth seats would have set you back £32k. Top end Cosworth Ultima back then would have been about £26k, as quick (quicker) as the 3.2, more toys and cheaper running costs. Our Mk 1 Mondeo cost £14k back in 1996, one today with similar spec would be about £18-19k.

True, the large car market has diminished. but have you seen the size of the new Mondy? This thing is huge :o. Look at that chrome grille though and tell me what it reminds you of ::)

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by DazRSK on May 31^st, 2007, 12:18pm

You are right - Jag is performing very badly in sales and in revenue for the Ford conglomerate. The biggest problem I think is best summed up in Germany where they have 2 (and perhaps now Audi has joined as well) home brands which directly compete.

The Jag is seen by German people as a car for retirement, full of English heritage where you ride around with your pipe in the mouth and feel proud you are driving a piece of history. This probably spreads across most of Europe - including here. The disaster here is that they are not this and are actually very nice cars and I, personally, would still have a Jag over a Beemer or Merc. The sport / big engined versions are certainly no retirement / pipe in mouth type of vehicle at all. But that is what reputation does and the BMW and Merc are the car for the young execs, supposedly.

What Ford did a little wrong perhaps is let go of Aston and should have sold Jag / LR instead. Both brands would have to be sold due to the combined value being more than the worthless Jag brand and the fact that many of the dealers are adjoined from the old BL days - so share many of the dealer IT systems. They also share a number of components as well. Aston is a big presence in motorsport now, making money and is a classy car to have in the camp - but they have made the decision.

I don't think it's the large car market diminishing over the years - I just think there are different players. The exec cars have moved in and squeezed all the poorer quality brands out. I have seen the new Mondeo and actually looked closely around one in our foyer yesterday - it is big and it needs to be better than the BMW / Audi to compete because blue oval does not hold it on its own.

The biggest problem for Ford and other manufacturers is me, you, the public, the consumer. We live in a world where we all want a bargain and we don't want to pay loads out for something. The car industry has had to adjust. Think of the cars that you owned or wanted to own 10 years ago and look at the price tag in 1996. Go back further - look at the price tag in the '80s. All I am saying is that cars today are as cheap as chips because that's what we wanted - but they are still high quality. It's just that electric seats all round or whatever do come at a price and they have been had to be removed due to cost.

As a final analogy - and this is scory. In 1986, when the Sierra Cosworth was launched, the car had a price tag of near on £20k. Ford don't have RS's at the mo - the ST is the top sport badge. OK similar performance car today - the ST Focus - £17k. The ST Mondeo £23-24K. What's £20k in 1986 worth today ?

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by dannynic on May 31^st, 2007, 9:10pm

I have a'MOTOR' magazine dated may 30 1987the list price for a top of the range granada scorpio 4x4 is £21,339, the 2wd is still £18,735! You can buy a decent spec mondeo for that now 20yrs later! As previously stated the exec class ford does not exist anymore. Have to keep the scorpio going as long as possible, I ain't going to pay £15,000 for a car that ain't as good as my £800 one, albeit newer and probably more relable!

Title: Re: ST TDCi Vs Scorpio
Post by DazRSK on Jun 1^st, 2007, 1:42pm

And there lies the point of exactly how much we used to be ripped off - erm, sorry, pay - for our brand new cars.

If you mark that £21k Scorpio 4x4 price tag in May 1987 to today's value - double it.

If Ford re-launched the new Ford Scorpio tomorrow, would any of you pay £42K for it ?

And here lies the point of their depreciation today. If I told you that the residuals on such a thing were 40-45% of its original value in 1 year's time - ie worth £23-25K - would you still buy that car.

It's a real shame because Ford knock the spots off Merc and BMW and they used to do it well. Remember the days when Granadas were common cars. Oh well - that's history for you.