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(Message started by: pagey on Jun 8^th, 2007, 5:05pm)

Title: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jun 8^th, 2007, 5:05pm

Hello to all. Wondered if anyone knows the answer to this one. We've just had a pay rise at work and although certain individuals do the same job, they are paid different hourly rates, for instance, i'll be welding a bracket and the guy in the bay next to me will be welding one as well, but he is paid the higher rate. Up 'til now, we have had equal pay. It seems as tho' qualification is not the issue but whether you get on with the guvner or not. Don't like it. By the way, we are part of an enormous group so it's not a backstreet outfit. Have been looking on the net for an answer but it all seems geared in the employers favour. Am looking for a meet with the MD next week so any "ammo" would be appreciated.
Kind regards.
Trev. >:(

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by big_neil on Jun 8^th, 2007, 7:07pm

reminds me when i used to work, i served my time for 5 yrs and done the job for 35 yrs, then some upstart arrived and said he,d done a 5 week crash course on my job and was payed the same as me. he then had the cheek to ask me many a time "what do i do now", my answer was "get on with it smart a**e, as we worked on live underground mains cables backed up with 400amp fuses fireworks happened a lot with these upstarts. no body was seriously hurt but a few tingles were probably felt.
i suppose trev you,ll have to confront your boss and ask why the difference and then quiz him about equality, just be polite , it don,t cost owt, then ask him why....... good luck

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by TRACEYS_LIMO on Jun 8^th, 2007, 10:27pm

hi you can always ask acas for advice

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by TiberiuS on Jun 8^th, 2007, 10:42pm

Guys, I don't want to pull this thread away from topic but here's my £0.02.

I'm looking for permanent work at the moment. I do building labouring at the moment - not the worst pay but hard work, not regular and no future. As a labourer you're pretty much at the bottom of the pile in the construction industry, nobody wants to know if you wanted to become an improver, you do the majority of the work and they get the majority of the money.

So, I'm about a third of the way through an engineering degree, looking to get into something more skilled. Been searching for a few months now and all I can say is that nobody wants to take you on unless you've got ready made skills and experience and the salary of some of the jobs which require some kind of higher education or degree is a pittance to say the least.

Not disagreeing with you, just trying to give another perspective - I'm only 22 and believe me, if you're part of the younger generation, it doesn't mean you were born with a silver spoon between your teeth.

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by bertie on Jun 8^th, 2007, 10:54pm

you may find the boss comes back with the reply that you are not supposed to talk to each other about wages. This may be in your contract under the small print.

this happened with the wife, her company were famous for bringing in new starters on or higher wage than that of the time served. They got around this with the clause.

you should see the wage scales in my occupation, civil service, there are grades, then minimum and maximum scales within that so you get the situation where someone who has been in since they were knee high to a grsshopper on a junior grade can be earning as much or near to a newbie on a management grade. so you could be earning more than the new boss !!!!

he he

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 9^th, 2007, 12:13am

If you're doing the same job for less money thats discrimination.
Give your MD a letter asking him to explain why.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 9^th, 2007, 12:55am

[]

With Highlander, Discrimination, do yourself a favour, join a union and get them to bring the bosses out of the medievel times they seem to be stuck in. It could of course just be an ovesight on behalf of the management or payroll dep't. If your company is registered as an "Investors in People" company then they should know better. Acas should be able to advise on the matter and it is a free service and the number can be found on the Acas website.

Hope this helps...

Pete (Unison)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jun 9^th, 2007, 9:20am

Thanks for the input guys. I think a call to ACAS and then the letter asking why the discrimination. The firm went for the IIP thing but never got it 'cos when we were interviewed, nobody had a good word to say about the firm. you can see why now. Most of the workforce have been there a long time and it's not easy moving on when we're all in our middle to late 50s. To be fair, there are good points like sick pay for inst, but there's no need to be bloody minded just because you can and tee off the workforce by dividing us. By the way, when we were told individually of our new rates, some were told not to divulge the info 'cos it could mean dismissal but perhaps because I am a bit more vocal than others and can't abide any form of creeping, nothing was said. When I finished my (proper) apprenticeship in '68 it wasn't long before I found myself on the shop-stewards commitee (Boilermakers) for 8 years mainly to look after the interests of the junior members. As the years rolled on, one gradually had their card marked and eventually the door beckoned. I moved on but to be honest, i've never given any thought to the union thing because after all, a union is only as strong as its members. I'd had enough of putting myself in the front line only to find that after the ramp went down and I charged up the beach firing and throwing grenades, I would turn round and everyone had b****red off back to the ship. (apologies to Private Ryan) . Anyway thanks again guys and i''ll give it a go.
Trev. :)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 9^th, 2007, 9:47am

Re: "nobody had a good word to say about the firm."

This is exactly the reason why you need the back up of a good union, a union is only as good as the strengh of it's members. I think in this day and age there are many reasons to be in a union, if not only for the legal rep side, (especially in my line of work) however people have become so complacent with regards to such matters (I find many are afraid of strikes etc and the thought of "feeling under threat, after the strikes of the seventies etc) that they are reluctant to become involved... this is exactly where management wants them. It is time for evryone to get the wake up call, (and I believe it's on it's way) and to stand up for their rights.....

Pete now steps down from the soapbox.... ;D

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by TRACEYS_LIMO on Jun 9^th, 2007, 10:04am

hi i agree that unions have a place and that we would all be working for nothing without them, but as already said its a cold and miserable place without work, I am sure that, acas is the best place to go. when I was made redundand 7 years ago, I spent months looking for work. now I work for myself and things are now starting to get to a place were its good to be. but its not a road that I would like to go down again. all the best David

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 9^th, 2007, 10:15am

Pagey. Read your post, and whilst I sympathise, I have a personal saying in work. "Just get on with it." ;D

I've been made redundant a couple of times, and also given up a couple of 'impossible jobs', but as Tracey's Limo rightly says.....being UNEMPLOYED is a lonely trip!!! Believe me....nobody cares, and your BILLS will keep rolling in! :o :o

As far as I'm concerned, what I earn has nothing to do with anyone else. I agree to work for a wage, and that's the deal. If somebody else comes along and earns more, that's their business.

I work in the West Country, and I can assure you that if you 'made waves' down here, you would be out of your job so fast that it would scare you. There are PLENTY of Poles, and Eastern Europeans who will do your job (ANY job) at the drop of a hat, and for far less money. Employers are loving it as it reduces their wage bill. A very dangerous situation to risk chucking your job up over or causing bad feelings with other employees or your Boss.

There are also VERY FEW JOBS, so you learn to value what you've got!! ;)

It's a lousy situation, but you either accept it, or go and work in catering. That's about the only other ' work 'down here with its 65/75 hours weeks on split shifts 9-3pm and 5-10.30pm on 6 day weeks, for peanuts. No Bank Holiday Pay, working ALL weekends, late into the night, and having snot-nosed customers treat you like dirt. In the winter your hours are savagely cut to the point of extinction.

There's far more work in your neck of the woods, and for what it's worth, I'd just quietly and surreptitiously find another job, and move on if you are that unhappy with your current job.

ME. I go to work, get on with everybody. Always willing etc etc. Smile (sometimes through gritted teeth), get stuck in and pick up my wedge each week, make sure the Boss knows that I'm an invaluable worker, (ha ha) and leave it at that. Makes for a far easier and less stressful life. :)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by mr._floppy on Jun 9^th, 2007, 11:11am

There's a few things that men regularly lie about to impress, the length of their doo-dah for one , and how much they earn for another.

How do you know that the guy working next to, doing the exact same job, has a higher hourly rate than you ?

Did he tell you, or are you surmising through rumour and gossip ?

If he did tell you, he may be fibbing just to cause trouble, their are people like that in every workplace.

They make the bullets, but don't fire the gun :-/

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by tintin on Jun 9^th, 2007, 11:30am

my dad had a good bit of advice for me, never think about what other people are paid, there will always be some idiot being paid more than you. it will just eat you up.

managers have to be able to reward good work with pay rises, but a recent study quotes opinions are based 10% on quality of work, 30% on behaviour and 60% on appearance, so pay rises usually dont appear fair, and sometimes steps on the toes of discrimination.

I suspect in your case behaviour is adversly affecting your "image". I have been a victim of this (i am also very vocal ;)), and was nearly put on a "trial" contract for criticising management, but have learnt to "play the game". Believe me, i hate doing it (selling my soul), but now i get my way, have a team i can treat properly, and had a big pay rise this year ;D

you should have a review process at work, so you can discuss your pay rise with your manager. my advice would be to concentrate on yourself, find out why you are not getting the "top" rise. if you can prove your quality of work is better, you need to understand what the issue is. then you can work on improving that.

hope this is not offensive, but its close to my heart at the moment,

cheers

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jun 9^th, 2007, 12:52pm

Thanks again guys. Points duly noted.
Trev.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 10^th, 2007, 12:01am

Well I'm going to disagree with some of the above comments.

Certain people get higher wages for similar jobs because they perform better, get better results... do something that merits it at least.

With no disrespect intended to your job at all Trev. You are welding a bracket, skilled job but welding a bracket is welding a bracket, you either make a good job or you get fired.
The guy next to you is doing the same and up until now got the same wage so why is he now getting more?? You both must be doing them to the required standard or you wouldnt still be there.
So either he is doing more than you, doing them quicker or you are being discriminated against! (or as Mr Floppy says, he actually ISNT getting more)

Now you could accept it and say nothing as suggested but why should you??
You sound as if you have a good few years service there and employment law leans heavily towards the employee as long as you have done nothing wrong.
In fact even if you have done wrong it often leans in your favour..

eg.. I had a guy worked under me a few years back who one Friday decided he didnt like the job, handed me his keys and said he wouldnt be back.
He was due to work the weekend as part of his rota, he never appeared.
Personell Dept said he had effectively resigned by handing back his keys, saying he wouldnt be back and not turning up for the weekend.
Monday morning he strolls in for work and is sent home because he had "resigned" he turned up every morning that week and was sent home. next thing a tribunal is brought up and he won a large sum of money because the company "should have made more of an effort to contact him and coax him back"

He handed back his keys, said he wouldnt be back and failed to turn up for work the next two days!!
Now I'm old school as far as work is concerned, what the boss says goes whether you agree or not just get on with it but if I had done that I would never have expected to get back to work or win a tribunal!!

have a quiet word first, they might not even realise there is a discrepancy in the wages..

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by sector-9 on Jun 16^th, 2007, 12:03am

My mum had been working for a certain local firm for 14 years and clawed her way up to department supervisor(?). Last month they took on a junior assistant for her but he left after a few weeks because when my mum went away for holiday he didn't get any support or help from management (he'd only been there a few weeks and was left to run the dept.) - he quit in disgust.

Afterwards, my mum asked him what pay he was on and when she found it was about £3K more than her she hit the roof. She put it to management as being sexual discrimination in that he had no prior experience, no supervisory responsibilities and had only just joined.

Needless to say, she's now on the same pay that guy was!

Darren

P.S.

It happened in my job too a few months ago. I was accidentally given the pay slip for somebody who started two months before me - turned out he was on about 40% more money. Of course they tried to downplay it by talking about differing responsibilities and attitudes, but when I asked them what I would need to do to be on the same pay they couldn't give an answer. I'm still not on the same pay, but I've moved a few K closer!

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 16^th, 2007, 10:59pm

And here's a nice little addition to my post !! :D

This evening, just as I was finishing work, my Bosses called me over and handed me my wages. They have given me a VERY substantial pay rise for the work that I do for them, and in recognition of the hard work that I put in, supervising a very busy department for them.

So I'm a very happy fella tonight!! ;D

Great to be appreciated.........Might buy another Scorpio!! ;D

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Kjetil S on Jun 16^th, 2007, 11:01pm

Great news!

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 17^th, 2007, 12:25am

;D ;D

Super news!

Well! there IS justice in the world... Well, in your workplace anyway... ::)

Glad for you
Pete

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pat on Jun 17^th, 2007, 4:15pm

Great news SD. Yes, go on- buy another Scorp. Personally I'd recommend a green 2.0 estate with the ABS light on......... ;)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 17^th, 2007, 4:34pm

;D ;D Thanks guys. Still on a high over this. Life has been quite tough for the past year, so I hope I'm on the up again. ;)

Dunno about that Pat.......I actually fancied a nice Puce colour........ ;D ;D

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pat on Jun 17^th, 2007, 4:49pm

I'll second that, mate. You still seem to have found time to help with practically every problem under the sun. Great site, great people.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 17^th, 2007, 8:44pm

That combined with your consultancy fees from www.fordscorpio.co.uk you must be minted ;)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Baz on Jun 17^th, 2007, 9:52pm

My angle is from the employers side. I have employed people (up to 20 at one stage) and as far as I am aware, there is no equal pay when an employer can argue that the jobs the employees do are different and that the employee has a different and varying skill set.

Most of my engineers are on different scales purely because just like you as an employee are out to get as much money as you can for a days work, an employer is out to get as much as he can for as little as he can get away with paying. It isn't discrimination; its just business.

If there was a particular guy who I wanted to work for me and he would only come if I paid him say 20k a year but he had skills that I could use, do I take him on and then increase the wages of every other engineer to match his? or do I not bother employing him and get on with it or do I take him on and not say anything?? you guessed it!

It is just business and nothing else. If the cost of your brackets that you are welding up become too expensive, the customer buys from elsewhere and you and all your fellow employees are out of work... as has been said, better to get 50p an hour less than the next guy than to get b****r all!!

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 17^th, 2007, 10:15pm

So you run a "If you're not happy b****r off" outfit then? ;D

Thats fair enough Baz, I know companies are out to streamline costs as much as possible and its only business BUT its taking advantage of people you should be looking after.

Surely if your employees are happy they do a better job?

The jobs in this case are exactly the same though, the employer cannot get away with the "different job" excuse.
Personally if I found out I was getting less money for doing the exact same job as someone else and the employer didnt rectify it I would show them the same respect as they showed me and advise them to insert their job into a dark place! ;D

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 17^th, 2007, 10:26pm

[] I'm with Highlander...
The one most valuable thing that EVERY human being on this planet has got which is IRREPLACEABLE and that is TIME, once it's gone, it's gone.

No one walking has time which is MORE VALUABLE then the next person so no one person should EXPLOIT any other person. It doesn't matter if your name is Sam Brown, Tony Blair or even Elizabeth Rex, they all have time of the same value. >:(

Just a thought....
Pete

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 17^th, 2007, 10:56pm

People do exploit others, that wont ever change but the days you have to accept it and get on with it are long gone (unless you work for Baz) ;)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by sector-9 on Jun 18^th, 2007, 12:06am

on 06/17/07 at 21:52:09, Baz wrote:

Most of my engineers are on different scales purely because just like you as an employee are out to get as much money as you can for a days work, an employer is out to get as much as he can for as little as he can get away with paying. It isn't discrimination; its just business.

Granted, but are you ready for the time when (and I say when not if) your employees find out and kick up a stink over it? Assuming you persuade them that the difference is justified, you know that their attitude towards the job will have changed...

Darren

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Baz on Jun 18^th, 2007, 7:17pm

but you see you are all in the "I am worth more than I am getting now" club

I don't figure I am exploiting anyone at all. People come to me for a job. I offer them a job and offer them a wage to do that job. Someone else comes along and I offer that person on a wage we have agreed on....it may be more, less or the same as everyone else who works for me but that is down to individual negotiations. None of my lads are in a union; it wouldn't bother me if they were although my only experience with a union was as a young electrician.... waste of time when I was on strike!!

My point is that I have to earn a living like the next man. The only difference is the fact I have to earn livings for 6 other people as well and that is the hard part. I was on the Doncaster racecourse job today and it has its fair share of eastern europeans because that is where the big firms get their staff in a lot of cases and it is up to the small guys like me to employ the british people :)

I also have to pay the thousands every year in tax, insurance for vans, fuel, materials, VAT and every other bill that drops through the door but you try getting someone to admit that they had bumped your van and ask them to pay the £500.00 excess out of their wages to cover it? or the time one of my lads had a row with his girlfriend; jumped into one of my brand new Merc vito vans with about 1200 miles on it and deliberately drove it into a parked car! £3,000.00 that cost me.... try building things like that into your profit margins! Not all business owners have the luxury of yachts and bentleys you know!!

Baz

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 18^th, 2007, 9:47pm

Quote:

That combined with your consultancy fees from www.fordscorpio.co.uk you must be minted

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Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 18^th, 2007, 9:55pm

Quote:

I offer them a job and offer them a wage to do that job. Someone else comes along and I offer that person on a wage we have agreed on....it may be more, less or the same as everyone else who works for me but that is down to individual negotiations.

I agree with you 100% on that Baz. :)

My advice to perpetual whingers and moaners is.....find another job. Just sod off and let those of us who DO want to work get on with it. People like that are like a cancer in any firm.

Basically, work is what you make it. Come in with a cob on, and you'll have a lousy day. Come in with a smile, even when you feel like death, and you'll probably still have a lousy day, but at least you'll have started the day well.

I'm in charge of a number of other guys. I have to make sure that the job is done....period. No excuses, no bullpooh, and no delays. If not, I'm the one who carries the can for it. I appreciate them, and I'm not afraid to jump in and do any part of the job alongside them. They know that even though I'm nearly 61, I can do the job blindfold, just as fast, and just as efficiently as they can, and as a result, we all respect each other regardless of what we earn. It works.

I have a super happy team, and business is getting better by the day because of it :)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Baz on Jun 18^th, 2007, 11:33pm

That is a fair point..... when you are doing the job, you just do the job, stop for lunch and tea breaks and go home at 4:30.

When you are in charge of someone doing the job, you are then responsible for the work that those people do...if it aint up to scratch, the kicking comes your way.

When you run the company, you have to make sure that everyone is doing their jobs because otherwise the work don't get done, the money doesn't come in, the bills don't get paid.... but the lads still want paying!!

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 12:34am

We've gone off the point of the thread a bit..
How can you go to work happy when the guy beside yoiu is getting more money for exactly the same job?

Trev isnt whinging, he isnt moaning, he WANTS to work but he wants to be treated fairly and shown a bit of respect by his employer

So whats the latest Trev? any luck with the MD?

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Baz on Jun 19^th, 2007, 1:52am

Well maybe the whole thing is running the wrong way... after all, what would be the right thing to do? Increase the chap who is on lower pay to the higher rate... or reduce the higher rate guys wages to match the lower rate?? ;)

one other thing I am not quite following though.... why is he being treated disrespectfully just because he is on a different pay level?

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 19^th, 2007, 6:30am

Here Here Baz, that is the whole point, I put this to you again, Why should charlie boy get more money for the same commodity he is trading "His Time" cos that's all it boils down to in the end... I have mentioned before in another thread that I have a friend who's son is a very highly trained and qualified person, He is doing the job that I used to do 15 years ago (aerial Rigger). I remember when the war in Bosnia was on and there was footage on the news showing a woman begging children for a drink of mucky water from their old bean tin, when interviewed she said that "she was one day a very highly influential lawyer, and now she is having to resort to begging off children in this way". She had found the leveler, wonder how she thinks now.

So to sum up, It matters not how high one considers oneself in life, at the end of the day Everybody is the same when measured with the same ruler...
Therefore if you then consider yourself Better than the next chap (or chappet) beware.... one day it WILL change.

These are just my thoughts compiled through life's experiences....

Pete

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Baz on Jun 19^th, 2007, 10:02am

Well I guess in the ideal world I would be on the same pay level as Alan Sugar.... he owns his own business too!!

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 19^th, 2007, 10:14am

Look at it this way, He would be on the same money as you....

Pete

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by wayne on Jun 19^th, 2007, 10:46am

Quite an interesting read.., and clear to see the two factions taking part in the debate,, the employER and the employEE.

I’ve been on both sides of the fence and can empathise with both factions. When running a small company you have to walk such a tightrope that people don’t ever consider.
My guys went home at 5 O’clock and that was it till the next day., They weren’t around at midnight when I was writing quotes and estimates for jobs that sometimes we wouldn’t even get. They weren’t aware that I missed my mortgage payment so that I could pay them. If a worker wants an extra 50p an hour and I NEED that worker, then I have to pay it., but that 50p has to come from somewhere… 10p each off the other guys? I think not.
If everyone has an extra 50p an hr, then you’re running at a loss and going to go bump.

As a worker, if someone’s getting more than you for EXACTLY the same job, then you’re going to feel aggrieved. Doesn’t make you a whinger or a moaner, just unhappy.
When I’ve found myself in that position I’ve asked for a better rate, if it isn’t available I’ve moved on. I’ve never left anywhere with ill feeling and can always go back if I wish.
I’ve never been told to ‘sod off’.
Not everyone can do that. When a man’s been unemployed for a lengthy period of time, he’s unlikely to walk into another job at the drop of a hat. He NEEDS that job and so is caught between a rock and a hard place.

I’m at a point now where work is a means to an end. I want to earn as much as I can for the service I provide. People don’t pay for my time per ce,, they pay for the skills I provide, no more, no less. If the firm down the road is paying more then I’ll go there.

This discussion is like that of bank holidays. An employee would love more. To an employer they’re a pain in the neck.
‘You can’t please all of the people all of the time…’

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 1:59pm

on 06/19/07 at 10:02:45, Baz wrote:

Well I guess in the ideal world I would be on the same pay level as Alan Sugar.... he owns his own business too!!

So take a pay cut then! ;)

Different jobs though so different pay rates can be justified

We're still missing the point though and yes although I sympathise for all the poor employers out there working round the clock and doing all the extra work thats required of someone in that position that is NOT the subject of this thread! ;D

Its not about the entire workforce wanting a huge payrise which threatens to put the business at risk.

Its about one guy getting paid LESS for doing the same job as another guy working alongside him.

They are obviously happy paying one guy at the higher rate or he wouldnt be getting it so why not another?

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 19^th, 2007, 3:11pm

But that's the whole point. Let's take an example.

If I go for interview, and I get offered, let's say £9.00 an hour to do the job, and I ACCEPT the job, ON THOSE TERMS then I will get paid £9.00 an hour which is what I have AGREED to work for. So I'm happy with that. :)

If another guy comes along later in the week and gets offered the same rate, and says NO, and is subsequently offered £9.50 an hour, then that's a matter between HIM and the employer, just as what I get paid is a matter between ME and the employer.

As far as I'm concerned, whatever I get paid is confidential between ME and my EMPLOYER, and nobody elses business. I certainly wouldn't get annoyed if another guy was taking home more for doing the same job. That's life.

I'd just accept that maybe the other guy had something or some extra skill that I didn't have which to the employer was worth a bit more.

The fact is, I would be getting paid the rate which I had agreed to work for, so how on earth could I be unhappy about it?

Face reality. Life is rarely fair, but I'm "old-school" and I simply believe in giving a full day's work for a decent day's pay. I really couldn't care less what anyone else is earning. It's not my business. ;D

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 6:32pm

Nope, you're still way off target.. is it just me or does no one see whats going on? ;D

This is NOT about the rate he agreed to work for.. he was quite happy to work for his £9 an hour the same as his workmates..

But NOW.. he and his collegues have received a pay rise.
So instead of all being on the same rate he is now getting less than some of the others and he hasn't been given a reason as to why.

The issue isnt that he wants more money, its that he wants to know WHY other people have got more money and he hasnt..

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by sector-9 on Jun 19^th, 2007, 6:52pm

You have to be careful when saying you're employed to do a job at a specified wage, otherwise why should your pay ever change? Not for inflation, not for reward - you stay on the pay you started at xx years ago.
Or put it another way, I don't ask for a pay rise, I re-negotiate my contract. I'm happy with my current wage, but I'm annoyed it took 7 years to get it! To put figures rather than guesswork to it, I'll say my yearly pay increase used to be £500 and I started on £13.5K. Several years later I'd clawed up to £15.5K; but looking at other similar jobs in the paper they were starting people at £17K. I asked management why I might want to wait another 3 years to be on the same pay as I could get elsewhere now. Call it justification or what you will, but they decided it would be better to keep me (albeit at an increased cost) than replace me with an unknown.

Now I can well understand the concerns of the small business owner like Baz, where even small increases in outgoings are very noticeable, but we aren't a small company and measure our profits in millions - have done for years. It's basically management's job to get as few people as possible to do the work, and at the cheapest price; just the same as if I were looking to sub-contract. Still, I used to put all hours of overtime in (all unpaid as per the contract) until I found out how much more others were on for the same type of work. After that my attitude was pretty much to do the minimum because going above and beyond wasn't benefitting me at all nor was it likely to in the future. I believe it is the DTI website or similar which had an overtime calculator on it and would calculate what your salary should be based on the number of hours of unpaid overtime you do. Mine showed I should be on about £2.5K more than I was paid for so I asked management to address it either by increasing pay or cutting the overtime that was being put on me. They took a while sorting it, but I'm happy now, even if I do lose some of my evenings...

Darren

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Baz on Jun 19^th, 2007, 6:57pm

The market rate for a particular type of employee is always more than someone who is doing the job is getting... it has always been that way. Go and get a job as say a cards in telephone engineer on for say £15k. In a few years time with the odd pay rise etc. you may have reached 16.5k while the going rate in the market for the same job could well be 18k. The big question then is do you follow the money or stay at the same place you have worked for a few years?

The daft thing is that if you ask your boss for the market rate.... he will more than likely tell you to hoof it. If you leave he has to pay the market rate to get someone to replace you!! The world of economics!!

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:00pm

on 06/19/07 at 18:52:45, sector-9 wrote:

I used to put all hours of overtime in (all unpaid as per the contract) until I found out how much more others were on for the same type of work. After that my attitude was pretty much do the minimum

Now thats exactly what I meant when I said a happy (fairly paid) worker is a good worker! ;D

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:02pm

Hello all. Seems like i've really started the ball rolling with this one. I really didn't think that it would go this far. Don't you guys start falling out over me- that's the last thing I want. I really didn't think that it was fair to pay different rates for doing exactly the same job. I have more years experience and also more welding codes than the other bloke (also a bit more finesse because we have to fabricate as well) I have asked for an interview with the MD through the right channels so will let you know how it goes. My manager did say that I drink more tea than anyone else which most guys in the workshop know is a load of rubbish. One thing though, the foreman has got a bullying attitude which is totally out of order with me 'cos I only want to see fair play. He came from the maintainance crews on the outside when we needed a new foreman and because they couldn't be bothered to advertise properly he won the job by default. Not so long ago he decided to bawl me out in the middle of the shop for something that went wrong which was entirely beyond my control. I couldn't reason with him so I saw red and told him to "go away". He reported me to higher ups but it was all smoothed over. Apparently, when the management got their heads together to work out the rises, he had a lot of sway. I think I have found the answer. Now, this might seem like a half decent whinge to some but not to me. If we havn't got any fair play then we havn't got much and to use a position of authority to get at someone is beyond the pale and I don't like it. >:(
Remember, don't get too heated over this 'cos I wouldn't like that either :)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:07pm

You cant beat a good argument (especially if you're right) ;)

Definitely discrimination then, not by the company but by your boss.. I'll bet things get sorted quickly once you bring it up ;)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by sector-9 on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:08pm

In your case I would suggest putting your concerns in writing to the management - I know from experience you tend to think things through a bit more and don't lose your rag as easily on pen and paper!

Darren

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:24pm

on 06/09/07 at 00:13:12, Highlander wrote:

If you're doing the same job for less money thats discrimination.
Give your MD a letter asking him to explain why.

::)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 19^th, 2007, 9:51pm

Quote:

You cant beat a good argument (especially if you're right)

[] []

Knew you'd see it my way in the end Stuart.......
}{ }{ }{ }{ }{ }{

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 10:38pm

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jun 20^th, 2007, 8:32am

Quote:

My manager did say that I drink more tea than anyone else which most guys in the workshop know is a load of rubbish. One thing though, the foreman has got a bullying attitude which is totally out of order with me 'cos I only want to see fair play. He came from the maintainance crews on the outside when we needed a new foreman and because they couldn't be bothered to advertise properly he won the job by default.

This is typical of the situation many people found themselves in years ago but nowadays everyone has a right to be treated with respect, who is he to make comments like this, manager or no manager, if it is an issue with him he should then use the correct procedure which should be laid out in the company performance management policy. Have you ever been given the opportunity to read the company policies I wonder.The foreman requires either of 2 things, he needs to be trained in the correct way to be a forman or he wants sending back to the maintenance crew again. They can't treat you like this anymore....

Pete

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by DazRSK on Jun 21^st, 2007, 3:09pm

I have only just read this through - takes a bit of reading given its length, but it is an emotive one.

I agree with what somebody has already said - there is a difference here between the employers who are trying to make money for the company and employees who are perhaps thinking they are worth more than they are paid - but there is a minimum standard, people doing the same job with same skill/experience/quality etc.. should be paid equally.

I don't have too much experience of the shopfloor worker or of management - so I guess I am probably pretty crap at giving any judgement here.

But I do work for the company that used to make your treasured cars and can see how a company employing 1000s of people do make the system fair. The easiest thing is to make the wages totally transparent. If you are a young starter in the company, this is your salary. Then as you gain skills / experience / quality in work, your wages improve. Or if new people with same qualities as you come in, then they should be rewarded similar to you - but it should all be transparent.

We have salary scales here - from levels 1-8. Then there are management levels beyond that. Somebody could be a level 6 and there is a variation of a few £1000 pa within that level - the reason somebody is on £2000 pa more than someone else whilst on the same level is due to management meriting the good performers with more money. The system is fair. I know that I shouldn't be too far away from the guy's salary next door assuming I have the same experience / skills / do the same quality job.

The difference here is that we don't have vast teams of people doing the same job so it is harder to measure these attributes directly.

With regard to the subject of this thread - if the welding is the same, the skill and quality is the same and somebody is earning more for it, then this is wrong. Tea breaks and other criticisms that bosses place in are just off the cuff comments to stack up the reason for not paying more or not commending the employee more - simply because it's simple to criticise, not easily measured by the employee (your view vs his) and there is nothing else more tangible. It is human nature - if somebody requests something extra, which slightly against the grain, nobody is going to just tell you that this is not possible because "it's just not the right thing to ask". They will support it with other critical remarks – whether accurate or wrong – which still make you stop and think.

I don't believe in strikes as this crippled our car industry along with other businesses in the 70s. But I do believe in parity and fairness among employees. I don't believe in work shy slackers at work always moaning and whinging and I do take exception to bosses and company owners saying how long they have to stay back to clear up all the loose ends after the workforce have gone home - you guys are paid a hell of a lot more for the responsibility. ;D

That's enough of my poor judgement.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by dan_the_man on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 8:41pm

I would recommend finding another higher paid position else where, chatting with those in charge of pay . and 'bargaining' up to your new rate or moving on ! I used to do that when I was employed, I'm a sheet metal worker by trade. It always worked for me. You could give a few agency's a call, you are unlikely to get holl's pay though and thats worth approx 20%. or look at going self employed . if your coded consider Ship,Tank or oil rig work. location has to be considered of course. the best of luck , Dan.
If all else fails it sounds like your the kind of gent who can do gates and railings from home ! I do. ;)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jun 24^th, 2007, 10:09am

Hello all. Thanks for the words Daz. I believe in the transparency thing. Up til now, it has been the norm with no problems. If nobody tells you what the top rate is, how can you achieve it? This business about not being able to discuss what is after all your business with work colleagues is a complete crock. It gives rise to suspicion and jealousy and can drive a wedge between workmates. When you are part of a 15 strong workforce, everyone pulls together and we all share the workload and get on well.
Had a meet in the week with my workshop manager and the next one down from the MD-whatever that position is, to put my grievance across. We talked for about an hour and I like to think that some good came of it. He said he would put it to the MD. If I get no joy, then I will have to rethink my working procedure ie copping a deaf one when people come to me for advice etc which most do as i'm the oldest in the shop at 60 (not quite as old as Simmo though!) "My" apprentice ,who has finished his time, is now on the same rate as me. We have always been close (calls me dad a lot) and work well as a team but he feels embarrassed. I don't begrudge him his rise but I thought with the combined talents and brain power of the management, they would at the very least put a few pence between us. None so blind as them that can't see. I still see this as a personal attack by them. As i've said before, I like fair play and am not the type to roll over. I enjoy making what I do and I have always done it to the best of my ability. When I told one of the other guys who I know to be on more that I had lost money because I drunk too much tea,he burst out laughing and said "Blimey Trev, I don't believe it, I drink more than you!" It has now become a joke in the shop but at least it keeps people smiling.
If I get no joy, I shall still carry on there because Dan, at this stage in the game, I can't imagine old Pagey being winched aboard an oil-rig in the middle of the North sea in a force nine to do an emergency pipe repair! Mrs Pagey wouldn't like it and she would worry!
Regards to all. :)
Trev.
Will let y'all know the outcome

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Neil W on Jun 24^th, 2007, 6:44pm

I think you are doing the right thing by approaching your next higher level of management first - politely and calmly. All organisations, except very small ones, must have a grievance procedure and you have a grievance. If they do not have a grievance procedure then you can use the statutory one (Employment Act 2002).

However, before you get too far down the track do make sure, absolutely sure, that you have a case. Have you checked that the guy you are comparing pay with does actually get paid more than you (and you have irrefutable proof) for exactly the same work to exactly the same standard?

If pushed, management might use as their defence something you might not like to hear - about your own work - particularly if you invite them to say why you are paid less than another person! We all have a view about ourselves at work (the halo effect) and unsurprisngly managers can sometimes have a different view! If they mention age, however, yours (oldest) or the other guy (younger) then you can pursue a discrimination case on the grounds of age, but you will need positve proof of what they said (take a colleague with you to any formal meeting - it is your right).

Before considering ACAS, check out the Code of Practice on Equal Pay (Equal Pay Act), available from the Equal Opportunities Commission - also available here:- http://www.eoc-law-scotland.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=2858
and then decide whether or not you have a case, or try the local Citizens Advice Bureau.

You have already commented on whether or not to pursue the grievance to the bitter end, and have already considered if there is any longer term benefit given your age and service with your employer. It does come down to a practical point in the end; asking yourself "what is this principle worth to me?"

Anyway, good luck with your claim, and do let us know how it goes in due course.

Neil W.
(Retired Chartered Personnel Director)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jun 25^th, 2007, 5:47pm

Thanks Neil. Will do.
Trev. :)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by DazRSK on Jun 26^th, 2007, 1:55pm

Trev - as I said, I don't have personnel experience to any degree, however, I am a firm believer in disparity in the workforce leads to envy, jealousy, resentment, bitterness - all the bad emotive feelings that are set up when this happens. With employees saddled with any of these, this does affect work output and general attitude around the place - not good for the company as a whole.

After all, if this wasn't the case, then this topic would not have been started. And all we go to work for is to earn a little money to do more interesting things in our lives. The amount of time spent at work is enormous when compared to anything else we do.

The easiest way that Ford sort the pay structure out is to state what the pot of money is - obviously a big organisation, so thare a number of pots, one for each dept., but they are the same per head per dept.

Then management decide how much each employee actually gets. If someone is being short changed a little, so they give him 5% increase and his colleague who is currently on better money - who is performing same standard / same experience etc. etc - he gets a 2% rise and this would happen year after year until pay is near enough equal. This process is magnified out across the company.

The issue is - Ford don't actually have to do this because the even keel has already been set for all emplyees. But where there is disparity, this would be the measure used.

You do need to be careful - as Neil says. You need to take an objective look at yourself and ensure that your house is all in order - biggest defence the comapny will have against you if you over-rate yourself. Typical about cups of tea - trouble is that this is a spare of the moment comment because anything more technical about any lack of personnel attributes needs more thought about it.

Good luck with everything and above all - make sure that you go into any management meetings with a positive as well as a negative.

Tell them that Ford - a blue chip company - runs their wages to a budget but ensures that everybody is paid fairly and this is done though an open pay structure so that everyone knows where they stand.

If the company runs its wages dept budget well so that bottom line is significantly dented by the wages, then there'll be no cries for ripping the company off.

That's enough from me.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jul 9^th, 2007, 7:00pm

Hi all. Thought I'd better let you know the latest. Since I spoke to my guvnor last, (politely and calmly) everyone in the company has now been issued with new contracts of employment. I think all are happy especially me 'cos I've now been moved to the higher rate. I am a happy bunny once more. So that's that then. Thanks to all for your advice and input.
Kind regards.
Trev.

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by pagey on Jul 9^th, 2007, 7:01pm

Sorry, forgot the :) :) :)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by Simmo on Jul 9^th, 2007, 8:22pm

Good for you Trev. ;)

Title: Re: pay rise
Post by petehull on Jul 9^th, 2007, 10:28pm

on 06/09/07 at 00:55:48, petehull wrote:

[]

With Highlander, Discrimination, do yourself a favour, join a union and get them to bring the bosses out of the medievel times they seem to be stuck in.

Pete (Unison)

Glad to hear of a positive outcome, just goes to show, you could have been there for years before anything was done. How long has the situation been like that and should it have been backdated? Just other questions to be asked. When the bosses give in easy like that it makes me wonder if they already knew the problems were there, but who knows?

Happy for you ALL....

Pete