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        General >> Off Topic Subjects >> Traffic Lights
        
(Message started by: Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 11:36am)

Title: Traffic Lights
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 11:36am

Baz and I have been having a conversation about traffic lights and their impact on traffic congestion, accidents etc.,

Do any of you folks have any major junctions near you that are controlled by traffic lights?

How well do they work?

How much traffic do they handle and how long do you wait at peak?

Have you ever had to use the junction when the lights had failed and how did that work?

I have been looking at a scheme in Drachten in the Netherlands where they took away the lights and reverted to roundabout/give way and reduced traffic accidents and improved the flow.

I have a local set at a crossroads that has had queues of up to 8 miles flowing back from them 3 times in the last week. The highways engineers tell me that they are optimal, set just right, I don't agree.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by gozz on Feb 24^th, 2008, 1:59pm

As our lad from Boston will know,traffic lights were put up on a busy roundabout in the town some while ago,nobody knew why,maybe it was end of financial year waste of ratepayers money time ! However,the jams caused both ways on the A16 ,particularly northbound could exceed a mile.The lights have now been switched off,and I can usually get through to the Crem on time,there are now virtually no backlogs
GOZZ(appy)

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 2:33pm

Thanks GOZZ, which junction on the A16, just been having a look on google map and can see several.

Geoff ;)

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Feb 24^th, 2008, 3:05pm

traffic lights are often put up to replace roundabouts where accidents are rife; unfortunately the majority of car driving d**kheads in this country simply do not have a clue as too what left and right are let alone what lane they need upon approaching a roundabout (ask any car driver where their 'twelve o'clock' is on a approaching roundabout sign and they usually start licking the window), if used correctly roundabouts are far quicker, hence the abundance of traffic lights.
however,traffic lights are used to control the flow of traffic to stop gridlock i.e. say there has been a serious accident partially closing a road, the traffic lights at every junction within say a 3 mile radius can have their phasing adjusted to suit the needs of the situation.
quite a few times while driving my bus in heavy london traffic i've radioed 'centre comm' to let them know of a junction where the phasing is to quick and buses are unable to get through, they will check it on camera and if they feel its needed adjust the phasing remotely, however, there are still plenty of junctions where this is not possible as the lights are under 'local control' i.e. they can only be changed at the location....

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 4:53pm

Hi Taliban,

In the case that I am looking at a roundabout was taken out and replaced with lights. Delays and accident trends have been increasing since the change was made in 1997 and the congestion and reduced rates of traffic flow have turned the area around the junction concerned into an environmental hot spot that exceeds national max guidelines for carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, benzene and particulates, which is a bit of a problem if you live within two hundred yards of them.

Highways engineers when asked about phasing respond that they are optimal.

Then theres the rat runs and the five mile diversion that a number of people take to avoid the thirty minute plus delay at the lights.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Snoopy on Feb 24^th, 2008, 5:35pm

The problem with Traffic Islands ( roundabouts) is .... There is a stage that can be attained when , if traffic flow is excessive in one direction that NO OTHER traffic can get onto the island so long ques build up on the other routes.
In those cases the only solutions are
1. build an underpasss or over pass ( extremely expensive)
See HERE for example (http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/projects/5018.aspx) or HERE (http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/documents/A5117_Deeside_park_junctions_improvement_.pdf)

2. install traffic lights that do at least give every traffic direction a reasonable flow rate.

If the traffic flow is that great in ALL directions I do not know other that No 1 what the solution could be ...!

The other solution to your particular problem is MOVE HOUSE!

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 6:28pm

Thanks for the input Snoopy, I will tell you some more about it in June, for the moment I think weight restrictions may help and we probably need to reduce the number of lights at the junction (28 at last count including lights at 75 yard intervals on one approach to the junction).

Moving may well be an option for some.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by big_neil on Feb 24^th, 2008, 7:18pm

when i was working i used to work with the highways lighting men and we suggested to them that trying the biggest roundabout in carlisle on to part time lights might improve flow of traffic. we have now had 12mths of trial at this roundabout and it,s been such a success that it will be tried at other jcts in the city. i remember when i was an apprentice in manchester in the late 60,s and this was adopted on many jcts then and seemed to work. what does annoy me is when i,m coming home from fishing late ,after midnight, is some lights go on red for me when i am the only car on the road,then the green man comes on for no apparent reason,these lights are supposed to be traffic demand ones. what we also have in carlisle is air quality meters at busy roads which show an appaling quality of traffic pollution at many points , but i have expressed my concern to the council that the more traffic lights that are installed the more you are holding traffic up and causing this pollution. the main road south out of the city(A6) used to be the easiest road to leave the city , it is now, in the space of two years the worst due to the amount of traffic lights that have been installed, 11 in the space of a mile. the council,s answer is that the side roads are now getting egress where they were not before, point made.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 9:04pm

Thanks Neil,

I had heard that Carlisle City Council might have been carrying out some kind of experiment, problem that I have been finding is in getting the highways people in Wakefield to try options. Quite a lot of research has been done that shows in over controlling we create situations like the one in Pontefract.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Baz on Feb 24^th, 2008, 9:41pm

Or the one near me in Warrington where there was a perfectly good flow before; when there was a roundabout in place and now they have removed it and put lights up; congestion everywhere from all roads leading to the junction.

The lights were installed here for a different reason though; to allow pedestrians to cross from the housing estates on the other side of the road to get to the Asda. Except that the lights are in such a convoluted sequence that pedestrians give up and run across the road dodging cars as they go. Bikes ignore them altogether (which is what bikes do at any junctions anyway) and as for women and prams.... I nearly skittled one the other day who was crossing on the red man and I was coming round the corner on the traffic filter. You should have seen the looks I got!!

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Feb 24^th, 2008, 9:54pm

that is often true Geoff; 2 weeks ago the lights at a busy junction on one of my bus routes failed, but none of us called it in as the traffic actually flowed a lot better, the lights were only repaired after an accident. but of course the opposite is also true; lights fail and the area becomes gridlocked.
going back to the junction you say was changed to ATS in '97; thats a long time ago to monitor, other factors might have to taken into account, i.e. the increase in vehicles on the road over 11 years, new business in say a 5 mile radius that could increase traffic, shopping centre, business park, school etc.
the dutch town, is that the one that was on the news a few years ago? it had a confusing layout with signs, traffic lights etc everywhere, yet a high accident rate so they came up with the idea of removing virtually every sign etc so that drivers are not sure who has right of way etc which in turn has made all the traffic slow down and be more aware which halved accidents almost instantly?

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by Geoff_W on Feb 24^th, 2008, 10:32pm

Hi Taliban,

The junction has about 40,000 vehicle movements a day through it. The area is developing fast and there are plans to add about 1900 houses a year into the surrounding five towns area. Actually whilst the A1 and the M62 could carry the bulk of the through traffic and should. Probably twenty % of traffic is just passing through (but that is mostly HGVs using satnavs).

That is people cutting a corner between the A1 and the M62, when HGVs do that slowly through the junction then you get the big holdups. Because of the short sequence that operates.

If you want to have a look

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=wf8+4hn&ie=UTF8&ll=53.688804,-1.315827&spn=0.012478,0.028839&z=15

Drachten the Dutch town did see a big cut in casualties and actually halved the delay in crossing the junction.

Kensington High Street is another location where lights, signs and railings have been removed.

I think in some places we are being to cautious and the safety culture creates the chance for people to be even less engaged in what is actually going on and casualties result.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by gozz on Feb 24^th, 2008, 11:58pm

Geoff.
Further to your question re which roundabout in Boston,as you go into the town from Spalding direction on the A16,it's the third island,it's actually a T junction where you turn left onto the A52 for Grantham,or right for A52/A16 for Louth and Skegness.Some years ago a 'bypass' was built right through the middle of the town necessitating the rendering of many residential streets to cul de sacs,and disrupting life terribly,the effort was of little use in the long term,and there is now a huge furore to get something done.But owing to the geographical layout of the area with several waterways and railtracks great expense will be involved,but they should have done a proper job in the first place.Not that any of this is related to your topic!
GOZZ

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by big_neil on Feb 25^th, 2008, 8:17pm

just another point to make, when we had the big floods and all the lecky was off for two days ,everyone approached all the junctions with great care and traffic flowed very well , people were actually very courteous, dont seem to see it as much now ,it,s every man jack for his self and stuff you attitude,so it,s back to normal.

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Feb 25^th, 2008, 8:56pm

kensington high street was on the local news when they did it, i could be wrong but i was under the impression it was more for aesthetics/padestrians than traffic flow, i know a lot of street furniture was removed but i didnt think anything traffic was i.e. traffic lights were removed...

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by hughiemc on Feb 29^th, 2008, 6:40pm

Hi having worked in several countries mainly Europe I can honestly say our Traffic Light System (TLS) is possible the worst. It all stems to location, it is obvious that traffic flows quicker if it does not have to stop and a that stationary/slow traffic are involved in the highest amount of collisions. We put to many TL's close together therefore building up congestion, a well publicised event was in London when Ken or one of his mates decided to keep the red light on longer therefore slowing the traffic on purpose. What they forgot to do wai synchro the remianing lights ahead so when the red eventually went green the traffic was out of sync!! Chaos ensued!

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by v4-max aka Cheekyboy1 on Feb 29^th, 2008, 7:24pm

in margate a couple of years ago the council in there infinite wisdom decided to put traffic lights along the sea front. the resulting q's caused chaos. we now have the rounabouts back. thousands of tax payers money wasted. >:(

Title: Re: Traffic Lights
Post by TiberiuS on Feb 29^th, 2008, 10:22pm

Roundabouts can be pretty good, IF people know how to use them in the first place, don't jump in front of you, use their signals and DON'T try to make the last exit in the left lane (no, don't start me off on another rant ::))

Got a couple of junctions around here where they've put roundabouts recently and they do work better, it's like the infamous 'Magic Roundabout' at Colchester, they reckon it's the worst roundabout in the South East and some people even have a phobia about it but I don't have any problems with it. It's not perfect but then imagine the amount of traffic through Colchester during rush hour and think about how that would be if there were lights everywhere..