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        General >> Off Topic Subjects >> My Dilema
        
(Message started by: Tons_of_fun on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 6:21pm)

Title: My Dilema
Post by Tons_of_fun on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 6:21pm

Hi all.I,ve been mulling this one over for a while now but cant seem to make up my mind.So all opinions will be gratefully recieved......OK,Here we go.Since owning my current scorpio (12 valve) i,ve enjoyed it loads but have always hankered for a bit more in the "go" department.So the logical solution is to sell it & get a cossie.A no brainer really BUT there are certain pro,s & cons for each car......E.G. a 12v will have bullet proof mechanics which can be fixed with a big spanner & a bag of washers, spare parts are plentiful & cheap (water pump),also seems to have the least problematic electrics of the range.Only 2 cats to the exhaust & most mechanics seem to know something about them.The down side is the power.In the late 80,s early 90,s 150 bhp was considered enough,but in todays modern traffic,it sometimes seems to fade in comparison (pulling away from junctions quickly in the centre of brum can be sometimes frightening when your waiting for the engine to fight the gearbox & gather momentum).So buy a cossie i hear you all cry,but there are a couple of things that worry me.Rattling timing chains for one,also more fragile electrical components.Then theres spares availability.How difficult are they to source bearing in mind i can get everything from my local auto factors for a 12v.Then theres local mechanic knowlege (dont forget i live in solihull ! We are not allowed to work on our cars in public ...Even on your own driveway ).As for economy ? ? Well as far as i know both cars return the same to the gallon.As for performance ...? Well no question there really is there....Ok i think i,ve bored you enough.It just leaves me to say....." To Cossie...Or ...Not to cossie " ? ? ? .Cheers .....Craig :)

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 8:11pm

the only good thing about a cossie is the fuel economy, its superb, look through the problem pages etc and you'll realise the things never work for more than a day so they use no fuel. as for performance, are they really that great? its probably more myth than truth, the problem is there are plenty of cossie fans (no matter the model of car or even make, ford, vauxhall etc) that blindly believe they are the best thing ever made, unfortunately they are more problematic than other scorp models. an ex member from here (who'd had enough of unreliable scorps) had a look at other makes; he bought a saab (cant remember the model) that has the toys etc similar size engine, 40 or 50 bhp more than the cossie as standard. if you want power open your options to other makes etc but, what erm, interests me is the fact that you dont think 150bhp is enough in traffic, or in general for that matter...... ???

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by scruffygyt on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 8:34pm

i bought my 98 cossie at auction last summer I've done about 6000mls and its never let me down, I've not had to do anything to it apart from a rear caliper and it just sailed through its mot, its like anything it depends how its been looked after.

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Matt on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 9:09pm

Quote:

i bought my 98 cossie at auction last summer I've done about 6000mls and its never let me down, I've not had to do anything to it apart from a rear calliper and it just sailed through its mot, its like anything it depends how its been looked after.

[]

the 2 cossies ive had have never let me down, ok engine parts are a bit dearer but its a rarer car so they will be, other wise there just like any ultima kitted scorpio, just because its a 24v doesn't mean the 2.0, 2.3, 2.5 or even the 2.9 12v ultimas don't have the same electrical problems, which are only caused by neglect, tampering or just the age of the car.

i wouldnt go as far to say the fuel economy is superb though

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by gozz on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 9:38pm

TOF.
As you may know I have a fleet of funeral Scorps,mainly 12v and one 2.3.I also have an unstretched 24v.Big and heavy though they are the stretches are not worryingly slow away from the lights,and are more than adequate for city work.The Cossy really comes into its stride on the open road where the extra wind up can be utilised.Horses for courses ! Engine loom wiring on early 12valves is diabolical,and is the only thing that really lets them down.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by TiberiuS on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 10:36pm

Yeah. I mean I felt my 2.3 was more than adequate for normal driving, the place where it really used to lag was at 40mph+, if you got stuck behind a slower vehicle with a couple of passengers and a bit of luggage then you were stuck, it really didn't have the power to overtake safely. It would march on quite well from a standing start if you held the revs a bit but really lacked instant midrange torque. I'd love to try the same car but with a manual, Our Mondeo's got no acceleration at all (115bhp) but the manual box makes it bearable, I don't think I could stick that car for 5 minutes if it had an autobox :(

Probably higher up is where you'd notice the extra power, more than away from the lights. Scorpio is a heavy car and power to weight ratio is going to be quite poor from any of them, they're also geared a lot taller than say, a Mondeo.

If you really like the car then the forced induction route might be fun, look at the power they used to squeeze from the old 2.8 Capris. And I guess the 12v would be a lot more robust to mod than the 24v would.

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by scorpio_man on Mar 4^th, 2008, 7:00am

hi there

re the 2.3 engine. you really need to wind it up to get the performance out of it. that's how most 16v engines are like, but aren't as smooth as 2.3.

most of the 'kick' is from 4500rpm.

hth

btw, you want to try my honda civic 1.5 vtec! it starts to go at 5000rpm up to 7200rpm. what a laugh!!! ;D

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Octavian_P on Mar 4^th, 2008, 1:08pm

I haven't driven a 2.9 12V but i can tell that the cossie is some piece of machine (i have driven the 2.0, 2.3 an 29 24V). I bought my cossie around 80.000 miles. It had around 6 owners before. Timing chains where a mess, AC broken, it also had a lot of parts changed before and cammed with a huge history :P. I did the timing chains, fixed the AC (for a period), electrical loom was completely messed up, autobox started slipping (oil change). Now it works great and i love it. You need to choose from different parts of view. In economical way the cosworth is expensive to maintain, but i skip this because i love the car. As for power, for a 210 hp car it realy goes well, it has loads of grunt at low speed and the kick down gives me shivers of joy of hearing the beast in action. I caught 140+ mph with it and the rev counter and speedometer where still going up fast. All this + the comfort of the scorpios (it's like driving a racing sofa ;) ) Take a look a the new Mondeo, put the driver seat in the maximum back position, the leg room for the back passenger is tiny !

So as a conclusion, if you really like the scorpio at least test drive a well maintained cossie and give it some proper trashing (pedal to the metal). You'll find (like i did) that this is how a car should work. As for the 2.3 it is a well balanced car, smooth engine, but the cossie is way over it by far.

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Tons_of_fun on Mar 4^th, 2008, 7:25pm

Thank you guys.Lots of interesting opinions & comments.i have this morning drove a workmates mk3 cossie & i have to say there is a world of difference :oFrom standstill to 25 mph there is little in it.Then you get this huge wave of tourque that just hurls you down the road :).The 12 valve is a reasonable performer in the midrange but quite flat at the bottom end by comparison.I know the car is performing as it should & have had 3 x 12 valves in the past (all mk 3,s),but i was shocked at how much sharper the 24v,s are.As for different makes of vehicle i only like 2 other cars,but know they would be a disaster waiting to happen ;D ;D The first one is a ford probe,but being the wrong side of 35 & having the body of a pregnant rino,getting in & out of the car would be problematic if not slightly amusing ;).The second would be an Alfa 156,but i would spend more time having it fixed instead of driving it ;D ;D.So it looks like a cossie may be on the horizon soon then.Maybee i need to drive another just to be sure :-/ :-/.Matt are you going to the midlands meet this sunday ? ? ? ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 4^th, 2008, 8:36pm

you'd have an alfa 156 but reckon you'd spend more time fixing it than driving it??
what do you reckon you'd be doing with a scorp!!!!!! a cossie et al!!!!!! lets face it scorps are now 10 years old at their youngest and the vast majority of cossies will have been thrashed to the same extent as an mp in a 'dodgy' club..... ::)

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Matt on Mar 5^th, 2008, 6:36pm

this sunday? spose so, why do i get a feeling we'll be taking a trip down the dual carriage way ... ;D :P

btw remember the ride on mine will be a bit firmer as ive got the low profile tyres on it, and dont kill my box!

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Tons_of_fun on Mar 6^th, 2008, 6:58pm

Ha ha,only joking matt.Actually it,s looking unlikley i will be at the meeting.Got to show a visiting dignitary around the new landscape project on sunday at 9 o'clock so i dont think i will have time.Heres an embarising story for ya.Going up grimstock hill tonight & was overtaking a lorry.I had the throttle mashed into the carpet & a chap in a 2.0ltr vectra was practally pushing me up the hill :o :o.Yesterday i had a full diagnostic check & power run done on auto sprints rolling road,just to see if there was any problems.....NO faults found ,ALL systems operating under normal perameters.Power at the rear wheels was 127 bhp (around 154 @ the flywheel),so it,s not down on power either :-/.I guess it must be down to my driving style,but i,ve finally made my mind up.A cossie will parked on my drive soon.Wanna buy an estate ? ? ? ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 6^th, 2008, 7:52pm

the 2 cossies ive had have never let me down, ok engine parts are a bit dearer but its a rarer car so they will be, other wise there just like any ultima kitted scorpio, just because its a 24v doesn't mean the 2.0, 2.3, 2.5 or even the 2.9 12v ultimas don't have the same electrical problems, which are only caused by neglect, tampering or just the age of the car.

i wouldnt go as far to say the fuel economy is superb though[/quote]

Matt, just a query, does that include the one you're waiting for the auto box to go 'boiiiinnnng' on?

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Matt on Mar 7^th, 2008, 5:07pm

hey,

yeah it is, but my old cossie had the same fuel consumption

cant wait to drop the manual box in it ;D

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by v4-max aka Cheekyboy1 on Mar 7^th, 2008, 6:48pm

on teusday my 24v has passed it's 3rd mot in a row with no advisorys. so they cant be that bad, does have full service history though.

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by scruffygyt on Mar 7^th, 2008, 8:19pm

nice one, like i said in an earlier post its how they've been looked after.

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by moonster on Mar 7^th, 2008, 9:34pm

on 03/06/08 at 18:58:46, Tons_of_fun wrote:

.Going up grimstock hill tonight & was overtaking a lorry.I had the throttle mashed into the carpet & a chap in a 2.0ltr vectra was practally pushing me up the hill :o :o.style,but i,ve finally made my mind up.A cossie will parked on my drive soon.Wanna buy an estate ? ? ? ;D ;D ;D

But what was that vectra?? V6 diesal Like I see the MET Police now use, or a petrol monster 2.5 or more what ever they are.?? OH READ IT AGAIN, YOU SAID 2. LITRE. ::) ::)

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Tons_of_fun on Mar 8^th, 2008, 4:02pm

Rather embaressed to admit it but....it was a bog standard 2001 2.0ltr vectra,with no modifications (belongs to a neighbour) & has done 180,000 miles.It just goes to prove that the 12 valve engine ,as solid & reliable as it is, its not that good at keeping up with modern traffic.The 2.3 is far more responsive & has equal amounts of power,but finding one without inlet or coil / wiring issues is near impossible.(i know,i looked for over 12 months before settling once again for a 12v)This time though i will bide my time,save a little more money & get a cossie.If it turns out to be a white elephant,at least i,ve tried one eh ;)

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by TiberiuS on Mar 8^th, 2008, 7:08pm

And there was me thinking of upgrading to a 12v from the 2.3 next time ::)

Our Mondeo is great, it's been 120% dependable even if it's dull and slow. But it's going to need a new clutch soon and probably have the gearbox overhauled, which on a Mondeo is a major job. Besided it's getting old now and I feel deep down that it deserves being semi-retired, it's not really mine on paper after all ::). And it's never as versatile as the Scorp, when we bought this place and I was laying the new floors I used to cart back bundles of 5m joists and skirting boards in it with the boot held open, that car did the work of a small van in that year alone.

24v is faster and has more guts at speed but I don't think there's a great deal in it if you're talking point to point driving, at least not in the dash down the A120 I did. They're all way overgeared anyways, probably the 2.3 would be a lot more agile on the 4.27 diff...but it's a nice relaxed cruiser, not sure I'd want to sacrifice that just for a bit taken from the 0-60, not a car you want screaming its nuts off at 70mph :(

Stopped to look at another 2.3 on Thursday..thought it might be a manual, alas it wasn't. R reg prefacelift, 130k, 4 nearly flat Uniroyal tyres. Nice bodywork and colour but dent right down passenger door, couple of rips in the passenger seat.

How much? £1550 :o

What are these people on?

Good luck whatever you decide ;)

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by gozz on Mar 8^th, 2008, 11:01pm

TOF.
It would appear that the neighbour's Vauxhall is endowed with plenty of "racing play".You must get him to loosen your Scorp up !
GOZZ

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Tons_of_fun on Mar 9^th, 2008, 9:25pm

LOL,Yep,i know what you mean.Gave the 12v a good run coming home from the midlands meet this afternoon.After about 5 miles at (ahem) mph it did seem to free up.A couple of Unleashed members have well & truly converted me to the darkside though.Had a go in Lee A,s immaculate cossie estate & have to admit,the difference is HUGE.Pity i cant transplant a cossie lump in my body shell.I really would be a happy chap then ;)

Title: Re: My Dilema
Post by Matt on Mar 12^th, 2008, 8:05pm

u know ive got a (spare) cossie lump and full set of looms ;)