Ford Scorpio Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Ford Scorpio Forum
        (https://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl)
      

        General >> Off Topic Subjects >> Number of distinct Ford keys
        
(Message started by: tlundkvi on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 9:24am)

Title: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by tlundkvi on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 9:24am

Had a new key cut and got the number sequence as well. Six numbers, each 1-4. This makes only 4^6 = 4096 possible keys (1- no slope, 4 - full slope)! Or have I missed something? Have to admit it sounds pretty wild as all Fords shared this key type for decades on all models :)

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 9:44am

Seem to recall a story many years ago about a guy who drove off in a Cortina...that wasn't his...same colour and model, same key fitted it...just so happened that in a large car park there was an identical car parked there and he thought it was his :-)

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by tlundkvi on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 1:26pm

Yes, no wonder the insurance companies pushed all manufacturers to use electronics in the keys. In Finland for example there has been no car theft of newer cars where either towing or grey market produced keys haven't been involved.

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Mike H on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 8:22pm

Yep six variations of only 1 - 4.

And then you get where a new key won't work an older lock or vice versa, just because of a tiny bit of wear. Or not as the case may be

Was considering replacing my passenger door keylock as none of the original keys will operate it.

But neither will they a new lock!

Bu-ut, a new key that came with a new ignition barrel years ago does work in it (the original), so now I carry two keys around

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Mike H on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 8:24pm

PS that same new key can also work the driver's door, but not the boot

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Tompion on Jul 4^th, 2010, 1:03am

My guess is that the number of variations may be lower at least for later locks as it seems likely there will always be at least 1 no 4 wafer fitted.
Pure guess work based on two designs of no 4 wafer indeed it may even reduce it to 3^6 (too tired to think it through at the moment, but I think the 4 with the short cutaway is effectively dead).

I posted a picture and some ramblings a while ago:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1190566940;start=8#8

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Mike H on Jul 4^th, 2010, 10:14am

Interesting that, and yes latest kit I got is as per right hand picture.

Also discovered the key can push a wafer around too far as opposed to not enough, so the cut-outs still won't line up for the rod to drop in. A bit of reworking with a needle file is a possibility but TBH I couldn't be asked by that stage especially as I found this new key works in the old one (thus proving it's virtually "as new" already so nothing basically wrong with it after all)

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Tompion on Jul 4^th, 2010, 12:57pm

With the exception of the 4 with the reduced cutaway they should be able to travel too far.

That is why a worn lock catches because the soft part of the lock (turned by the tip of the key) allows the key & therefore the wafers to travel too far.

The reduced cutaway on the 4 helps reduce the effects of wear because it applies the turning force to the plug in a better way than the tip of the key can.

With a worn key however the wafers don't turn enough. I suspect a lot of wear on a key is caused by keys rubbing together in one’s pocket rather than by use.

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Tompion on Jul 4^th, 2010, 1:34pm

With regard the number of distinct combinations, If it is the case later locks always have a 4 wafer it’s not as bad as 3^6 but you would obviously need to remove any key cut-out variations that don’t have a 4 in them.
It is possible that some keys can open 2 locks. For example a 143231 key can open a 244342 lock but not the other way round, that is because the 3 slot on the key turning a short cut-out 4 wafer sets the lock off too early so the other positions now need to be cut to the next depth to compensate.;D

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by tlundkvi on Jul 4^th, 2010, 9:23pm

If one has to be a 4, this leaves 1*4^5 = 1024

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Tompion on Jul 5^th, 2010, 3:21am

I don’t think that’s right, my somewhat shaky prediction is 3361 but I don’t know what the formula is.

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Tompion on Jul 5^th, 2010, 11:47am

I’ll revise that to 3367
I wrote out the combinations for 1,2,3, & 4 wafers (well 4 was an expansion of a block of 64) & looked for a pattern.
(4^6) – (3^6) seems to work

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Highlander on Jul 5^th, 2010, 12:01pm

Bring back the old ones that used to open everything :)

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Tompion on Jul 5^th, 2010, 12:21pm

You've probably got enough keys to open everything ;)

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by gozz on Jul 5^th, 2010, 12:23pm

I had a Honda Actyvan in the early 80s,went to post some letters at the main Post Office and locked the keys in the ignition.Stood deciding on the best course of action,when a man on a scaffolding called down,"locked your keys in ?",yep.
He came down off the scaffolding and unlocked the van with his Honda motorbike key,a perfect fit !!
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Number of distinct Ford keys
Post by Mike H on Jul 5^th, 2010, 1:51pm

And the farce some years ago when you could buy a new key in Halfords if you locked yourself out ;D