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Title: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 28th, 2011, 2:12pm Have had a tricky customer and need advice, i am a Retired electrician, beware the lovely lady customer with a nice smile, and if possible do not try to avoid an oncoming snog! bichity or what |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Baz on Mar 28th, 2011, 7:52pm I have a couple of electricians who work for me; one is part P certified. What is the problem? I too am an electrician by trade, but worked on big projects like Selafield and Kelloggs etc..... I am not legally allowed to fit an outside light to my own house these days! |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 28th, 2011, 8:23pm Bit of a long story Baz, my now ex customer, has bounced a cheque on me, because I mentioned the Supplementary protective bonding, in the bathroom when changing taps! unfortunately I have always simplified this for the customer by calling it ‘cross bonding! (From the dark ages) so the self cert guy who took over the job from me at her command has started dictating regs for her to use to avoid paying me! the property was signed off 10 years ago as 16th edition, and it remains so, however he states that I read 17th edition as equipotential bonding may not be required in all circumstances, Well I would say that without bringing the entire installation up to 17th ed, i-e replace consumer unit, and fit Full rcd protection for all circuits, this is not the correct information! it either has to be 16th or 17th, not a mixture of the two, I would also say that the way he has described this as equipoptential bonding, he is talking about the Main Earth Bonding, which is nothing to do with the supplementary protective bonding in the bathroom! This is item one, what would you think? Thanks Bob |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Matt on Mar 29th, 2011, 6:55pm i was 16th and now 17th but the way we do it at work is if an installation was done under 16th then certain things were advised like supplementary bonding not mandatory like they are now in the 17th but in both cases the main earth must have the metallic ID tag on it when doing the 17th course it was hammered into us all "bond everything" especially in bathrooms and kitchens if a 16th installation is modified under 17th it must have the colour change warning sticker and the colours them selves sticker and a 17th must be done in new colours, no reusing of the old cables |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 29th, 2011, 8:21pm Thanks Baz & Matt. just to say iv'e done all sorts over the years, after a 7 year apprenticeship. authorised to 33k to work in Oil refineries, M.O.D. Power Stations, Airports, Schools colleges, hospitals, thousands of houses, And specialised machinery for export. Yachts, more houses, but that suddenly seems a long time ago, anyway for some reason the customer did not appreciate my advice on the supplymentary protective bonding in her bathroom, for her welfare! when i changed the bath taps. and is trying to rubbish everything i say, to try and save a few quid, must admit it really peed me off! she appears to be taking advice from a certified guy, however from the way she copies and pastes what she says he said, i think she is missing out the important parts, or he does not know the regs he is refering to, i don't want to bore you guys, but this has done me some harm. what i hope to achieve is to write to her to call her bluff, by informing her of the correct interpretation of the reg,s. then take her to Court, to get the money. trouble is iv'e been out of this sort of work for so long, everythings changed, for instance 'He supposedly say's! but this may be her trying to mis-interpret what he says (in a copied paragragh) equipotential bonding may not be required in all circumstances! if you type in search 'equipotential bonding,' this refers to the Main bonding, to incoming Gas, & water pipes in the mains cupboard,Which is absolutely essential! not what she thinks is in the bathroom! there's more! |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by tonyboy on Mar 29th, 2011, 9:40pm Hello, I only done the first year at tech college 236 part 1 about 15 years ago, so 16th edition. And i seem to remember the lecturer saying that everything metal in the bathroom must be cross bonded. hot, cold pipes radiator and even window frames that were made from metal.......... |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 29th, 2011, 10:14pm Thanks for reply Tony, thats similar to me i never got as far as 17th edition, and have always done 'cross bonding' in the bathroom, everything metal bonded, now apparently refered to as 'supplementary protective bonding' however as far as i'm concerned, whatever name you give it it must be there! Please note the following== Originally posted by: later! So where does the expression "cross bonding" come from? It makes me cross when I see it, even crosser when I am told it's required. 17 March 2010 10:04 AM roc1 Posts: 6361 Joined: 03 October 2005 I am not sure why the nitpicking about the term 'cross bonding' it is a valid term and 'cross bonding of an array' has been around a long while, an array could be a group of gas pipes water pipes, conduits, or lead cables, metalwork, sink, etc ,in the High Voltage world, a group of ten lead sheathed cables in the ground could be cross bonded to an earth spike to bring them all to the same potential and keep the sheath voltages down, at the end of the day ‘supplementary equipotential bonding' and 'cross bonding' mean the same thing, bringing items to the same potential to minimise touch voltage, heat and induction, so I suppose it’s who you want to impress! Old school 'cross bonding' so the client understands the simplicity! Or new school 'equipotential bonding' so the client does not understand this mysterious impressive scientific term, so you can charge more! ha ha |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by gozz on Mar 29th, 2011, 10:22pm Doesn't all this pertain to BS7671 ?, and is it necessary to retrofit 16th edition to comply with the 17th which is now three years old,thus the 18th will soon be upon us ::). Blimey I'm living in a dangerous old pad ,just like my Dad and Grandad,but then there was a marked lack of litigation,or perhaps we aren't as conductive as those for whom the barmy rules are designed ! Must get my little meter out and go round the old shack looking for leaks :o GGGGOZZ |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 30th, 2011, 7:55am Doesn't all this pertain to BS7671 ?,(YES) and is it necessary to retrofit 16th edition to comply with the 17th (PERSONALLY I DID NOT THINK THAT COULD BE DONE) MAY BE WRONG!! which is now three years old, thus the 18th will soon be upon us (YES IT WILL )However as a Skilled worker it is possible to carry out some electrical work, as defined by Building control, as either notifyable or non notifiable. HOME ELECTRICAL SAFETY AND NEW BUILDING REGULATIONS Non – notifiable work: That is works which are very minor as detailed in Appendix A Table 1 Non – Notifiable Works (Extracted from Table 1) Part P Building Regulations. (As amended) Work consisting of: Replacing accessories such as socket outlets, control switches and ceiling roses, (in other words Like for Like) Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, i.e. by fire, rodent or impact Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Highlander on Mar 30th, 2011, 8:33am My knowledge on the subject is zero..but I have been in similar situations. Inform the customer that you are willing to sit down and discuss the situation (with her and the new electrician) but make it VERY clear that you know you are in the right, you have sought both professional and legal advice and if needs be you are prepared to go to court to recover what you are due (a good bluff is required) the likelyhood is she and/or the other guy will back down. On a different note, I saw you are retired. Please appreciate I have no knowledge of the electrical industry but some professions cannot legally continue practising without the relevant insurances, memberships or updating of skills in place. Dunno if thats of any use, is there nothing wrong with your Scorpio we can fix?? ;D |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 30th, 2011, 9:24am is there nothing wrong with your Scorpio we can fix?? LOL, I Know it's a Scorpio forum, Thanks for advice, What i should have said is i am retirement age, would be more accurate, I did not go on to study 17th edition much, because i changed my business, though still an electrician, i needed to be, because for a few years i developed my own business, repairing Washing machines, Dishwashers, including commercial machines, plus supplying, And have to say it worked very well for me, (certainly better that putting lightening conductors up huge refinery chimneys! after all where do you start on a stormy day! top or bottom? :o) at one time contacted by yellow business pages, people who came to me to take photos and interview me at my home,which was a good recomendation, However i used to move these machines on my own and gave myeslf a hernia! so went back to doing odd jobs plumbing, decorating, odd electrical jobs, and was (still am) insured to do so. Ok, one last question, if you have go to a small claims court, is there a time limit from when the client bounced a cheque? i have sat on this for 6 months already! Thanks for your time guys, The next question will be about amy 24v :) |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Highlander on Mar 30th, 2011, 2:28pm I believe you have 6 years ;D http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58 saloon or estate ?http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/YaBBImages/rofl.gif |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 30th, 2011, 2:38pm Thanks for that Highlander, :) The car is a 97 estate in purple! i bought it off a guy called Scorpcos, just before xmas. in the for sale section 11.05.2010 with pics |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Baz on Mar 31st, 2011, 7:10am With regards to bonding, I always thought that the rules were changed becase of the advent of plastic water and gas pipes. back in my day, gas pipes were metal and ran right round the house which meant that everything it ran to like radiators etc. were effectively earthed and that cros bonding was an extra insurance policy. Now, earth wires have to be run because there is no guarantee that the pipes are metal all over the house, or even where they enter the ground. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Mar 31st, 2011, 9:52am Thanks Baz, I think as the gas and water do indeed now have plastic pipes in to the property, from the road. they still go to a metal Main stopthingy and Metal Gas meter, usually in to or close to the Meter cupboard, sometimes the incoming electric mains comes in via one of those recessed boxes with access from outside the building.with tails through the wall to the consumer unit, however i still believe the matal pipes need to be bonded inside the property. so that there is no possible difference in potential in any of the metal pipes in the property. This bonding was always known to me over the years as Main bonding, now called equipotential. Bob. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Mike H on Apr 3rd, 2011, 4:52pm May seem like a daft question, have you not got a solicitor you can discuss this with? |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Jul 3rd, 2012, 11:18am Sorry to resurect this thread guys, thanks for help with this, I have developed a mental problem because of this woman, :-[ i wake up every morning worrying about it and its not even a lot of money! i think its because i helped her at a low rate, and she bounced the cheque, i think because her attempted snog misfired, and made her bi-chy, backed up by her on/off husband, jealous of what i am able to do! There was no self cert guy IMO! i sorted out all the regs i was on about, in my un posted letter to her! the obvious was staring me in the face, 17 edition is known as As Gozz said, should read BS7671 2008, and you cant add bits of one regs to another to upgrade to 17th, The instalation is fully to 16th edition, it is the husband implying you can upgrade to 17th! that caused the problem! i have written thousands of notes about this, and wasted more time than the whole bloody job! it is rediculous now, my letter to her is over 20 pages long! and it's coming up to 2 years! i clearly need medical help, i think it may be because i went out of my way to help her, and she bounced a cheque out of spite!However the money for me is not that important! i constantly go over and over this in my head, i have more important things to think about!! but i can offer advice, if a female appoaches, this may be at anytime and without warning or prior knowledge (even for the female!) if she launches herself at you for a snog, just go for it! if you don't you will end up like me trying to be as bi-chy as she is! and needing to see the head mending doctor! Pathetic i klnow! i can't believe it has got this bad, Take care out there guys! Regards Ro |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Mike H on Jul 4th, 2012, 1:47pm Long before this I'd have given it to the solicitor and let them deal with the aggro |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by gozz on Jul 4th, 2012, 9:19pm Bob,I know retrospective wisdom is a marvellous thing,but you should have given her a bloody good seeing to until the cheque cleared,preferably in a secluded spot 8) GOZZ. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Mike H on Jul 5th, 2012, 12:10pm I have long formed the opinion that the only problem with selling goods or services to the public is, er, the public.... |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by big_neil on Jul 11th, 2012, 8:49am ro 284, know exactly where you are coming from, i was an underground cable jointer for 35 yrs up to and including 33kv, nowadays i cannot do a 12v low voltage pond installation in my own garden without it being inspected by a qualified person, you can guarantee that the people doing the inspecting will not be as qualified as the person who doe,s the job, most of the testers will be fast tracked into their positions as testers with little knowledge of actual work, |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by gozz on Jul 11th, 2012, 9:58am Signs of the silly times eh Neil ? a bit of paper is now worth more than dyed in the wool experience,it's all gone far beyond the realms of reason.On a slightly different tack,road transport drivers were assessed by the transport bosses on the job,ie you drove a van or pick up,then progressed to a four wheeler then multi wheelers and artics if you were capable,if not you weren't required.Nowadays people go to a teacher to obtain the licence then go to an agency and are let loose on the road with no experience of using loaded heavies on congested roads,or without any knowledge of the ways in which the industry operates.Of course the modern brainwashed fraternity would not agree with me for the very reason that they have been conditioned that way ::) GOZZ. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by big_neil on Jul 12th, 2012, 4:09pm yeah ,gozz, i did a 5 year apprenticeship with the electricity board but was only allowed to work on live cables after another 5 years without incident, i had a" fast track"lad working with me in latter years with 6 weeks training,got the same pay as me but was always asking "what do i do now" he ended up looking like sooty (am i allowed to say that?)because he was always blowing him self up! as for the driving bit, i have friends who are driving instructors and they don,t like it when i tell them they don,t teach people to drive but to pass a test on a certain day and good driving only comes with experience after many years |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Mike H on Jul 13th, 2012, 5:27pm on 07/12/12 at 16:09:37, big_neil wrote:
Gordon Bennett :o (The blowing up bit, not the Sooty bit ;D ) |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Apr 12th, 2014, 9:00pm Sorry to resurect this old thread! but to update it, the woman wants me to fix some electrics!! i reminded her that she owes me money for the bounced cheque, so she said she would send me some money, she owed me £75, not a lot. but its been around 1700 days with interest accruing on a daily basis! because she stopped a cheque, which is apparently against the law! Bills of exchange act 1882! Well perhaps now i can get some recompence for all the hassle she caused!! i think she thinks she will send the 75 and think thats it and i will go back, the supposed electrician i have found out since was her jealous husband ( as regards the electrics i was correct, he was wrong and lying!! now he's gone) i need to work out how to total the interest on 75 over 1700 days, i don't know what figure would be the interest per cent! any ideas most wecome, cheers Bob |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Tompion on Apr 12th, 2014, 9:26pm If it were me I’d turn the job down, she’ll likely try and stitch you up again. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Apr 13th, 2014, 7:07am Thanks Tompion, i have no intention of working for her again, just want to get back as much as poss! i guess one way to work out how to get money back would be as though i have given her a loan, and work out payments of interest! The hassle from this psyco has been unbelievable! Bob |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Tompion on Apr 13th, 2014, 9:09am Do a search for calculate compound interest on savings, you’ll find several places like this one: http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php A search for interest on judgment debts gives several results like: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work-out-interest |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by amigafan2003 on Apr 13th, 2014, 1:35pm Allowing for inflation, £75 in 2009 would be worth around £85 now. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Apr 13th, 2014, 4:13pm Thanks guys, interesting stuff! thats given me a few ideas, ;) bob |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by TiberiuS on Apr 13th, 2014, 6:10pm Bob, I'm an electronic engineer, (not a million miles from a spark ;)), but from a quick skim of this thread it seems like she's caused you a lot of worry and agro and to be honest if it were me I'd just let it go and not go within a million miles of her again. I went through a similar thing when I was doing the audio biz, had one customer who wanted to put a lot of work my way, and from the amount of audio gear he owned it seemed like he wasn't short of a few £££. I did the work and all seemed fine until his cheque bounced - naturally I held onto the items, but he kicked up a fuss and even threatened me legally. When it was clear to him that it wouldn't stand up because I had paperwork from the bank proving my case he finally paid up but then tried to say my workmanship was faulty (I used to offer a 6 month guarantee) although when I got it back it was working perfectly and he couldn't decide what the problem had been, I faithfully sent it back at my own cost out of good will and then he tried to say it'd got damaged in transit but when I asked for photos he went quiet. In the end he got bored and went away, I just got sick of the worry and problems it caused me. Lesson learned, he actually came back a year later and wanted me to do a load more work for him, but once bitten twice shy and all that, I totally ignored him. A 100ft. barge pole is really useful to handle those people ;) Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on Apr 14th, 2014, 8:35pm Thanks bruce, i am indeed sick of the worry of all this, in the last couple of months i have retired, but it still gets at me, it’s ridiculous, there is an amount still unpaid, not a huge amount, she text me in the last week asking me to do some work for her, i text back and reminded her about the amount unpaid, and the fact that it was because she chose to cancel the cheque, Against the law! (Bills of exchange act 1882,) she text that she would pay me today! nothing yet, in spite of the fact the amount is accruing interest on a daily basis, (because of the stopped cheque) and it is now around 1740 days since then, I do think that she had forgotten she stopped the cheque! So we’ll see what happens, similarl to you she said my workmanship was faulty! She said she had got an electrician in, and he was going on about many things she said the guy had found faults with, But because of the way this guy was explaining things to her, i could tell it was her ex husband, just to add after i worked in her first house, i had finished extra sockets lights etc, i had to go back for some reason and noticed he was connecting a shed supply in 4mill armoured cable, from a surface 13 amp socket in the lounge! big no no! It was a 16th edition installation, (no RCDs etc!) also shed supply can only be installed by a certified sparks, which i had been for many years, with charges and permission from building control! This was the electrician she claimed advised her i was doing it all wrong, he also states that the equipotential i-e Main bonding is in the bathroom but is not necessary! and can be removed!! he was also confused about which bonding was where! All this and he did not know it was a 16th edition installation, (no RCDs) etc etc. Anyway i can correct everything he is confused about, and gone over everything practically every bloody day, in my head, and it really gets you down, lost a lot of confidence, after years of trying to do everything 100 % right, i had a good run, even getting selected by yellow pages, who wanted to send 2 photographers from London to get picture of me working on a machine! i was proud of that, And the lightening conductors for the tall chimneys at Fawly refinery, etc, got me even more work, but you get a sour one like this and it really gets you down, anyway i won’t go on any more matey, thanks for reply i will find my barge pole! All the best Bob |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by Andycan on Apr 15th, 2014, 9:26am Hi Bob you just need to let it go and forget it. I trained as a city and guilds arcade technician and was placed in a arcade complex where half the machines didn't work and I was not allowed to fix them as the owner had a private arcade technician coming in to supposedly fix them. Every time he came in I would accompany him and find the faults straight away and suggest the way to fix them usually a 5 minute job yet I was always told I was wrong and it would take this bloke months to fix the faults which turned out to be what I said with the fix that I suggested. I am not sure if the bloke was doing it for the money or he was a idiot but the owner just kept saying he liked it when the machines didn't work as if people lost their money it made him richer as he refused to give them their money back. I stayed their only long enough to pass my exams as I also found out that he was paying his staff £1 a hour and insisted they worked 8am to 1am 7 days a week and at the end of the season when he laid most of them off as he closed most of his arcades down he paid them off with photocopied money. I take pride in my work as do you and and it was killing me working there but people like them are just money grabbing idiots who use and abuse people like us. When I left he promised I would never work in the industry again as he would put the word out that I was too honest and too good at my job and true to word not one person would take me on so I moved into building computers and electronic repairs but can't compete with the big boys but I am happy that I can still keep my morals, provide a good service and provide good value for money. I will never be a millionaire but I am happy in myself and don't want to be a millionaire if it means selling my sole to the devil and becoming a money grabbing user. |
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Title: Re: Any domestic electricians here? Post by ro284 on May 23rd, 2014, 6:24pm Hi Andy, thanks for your post, :)sorry for late reply, have a new pc now, :) but thanks to all you guys who took the time to reply, it is interesting to read the problems people have had dealing with customers etc. when just trying to earn a living! Anyway i have had a recent event, This stupid woman wanted some more work done!! and she wanted me to do it! as if! but i took the opportunity to say i would think about it if she paid what she owed me first, (as if i would) And to my surprise she did! I did finalise the definitely not!! with a very stiff letter, she got the message, so all in the past now, even so i am sad that i no longer work as too old! generally most people are no problem, and i made some good friends along the way, just sad she was the last, but thats life! Many thanks for the support guys, much appreciated, Bob |
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