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        General >> Problems >> Correct way to drive an auto ?
        
(Message started by: RICHIJONES on Dec 30^th, 2004, 9:34pm)

Title: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by RICHIJONES on Dec 30^th, 2004, 9:34pm

Hi All.
Can anyone settle an argument between 2 of my mates.
One says that the correct way to drive with a auto box is to select drive and leave it in drive for the whole journey, when you come to a stop hold it on the foot brake and let the box do all the work. He says selecting between drive and neutral is not needed and causes wear to the hydrolics in the box.
My other mate says whenever you stop select neutral and apply handbrake just as you would in a manual, leaving in drive when stopped will put extra load an wear on the torque converter and also engine will be loaded so fuel economy will suffer.
So who is right ? I tend to leave in drive if i am only going to be stopped for less than 30 seconds.

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by waders on Dec 30^th, 2004, 10:01pm

Hi,

See this previous thread:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1100476080

Happy reading...

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Waders.

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by scorpio_man on Dec 31^st, 2004, 9:04am

hi there

this is a copy of a post from eric r to the mailing list......

name,
Yes, the drive in the autobox is supplied via a torque converter, which is a form of turbine. Perhaps I could explain how it works. Imagine you have a windmill set up in the garden and you squirt a garden hose at it. You will expect the windmill to spin because the force of the water is transferred to the blades of the windmill. Further, if you think about it, the force of the water is greater when the blades are turning slowly, and decrease as the blades speed up, and this is the torque conversion. Equally, common sense says that there will be more force delivered to the blades if you use a 3" fire hose rather than a garden hose to squirt water at it.
Now imagine the torque converter as two halves of an orange with the segment walls left in and filled with fluid. One half is driven by the engine and as it spins it throws the fluid outward into the vanes of the other half which is forced to turn and this torque drives the input shaft of the gearbox and the transmission fluid pump. While the driven half is slower than the fluid, more force is applied which decreases as the driven vanes speed up, until both halves of the converter are going at almost the same speed. At this point the torque converter is no longer required, and a small clutch is engaged which locks the two halves together - the TCC - there is now direct drive through to the back wheels.
The transmission fluid pump is also spinning and pressurises the internal oil channels which engage the gears, and it is this you may hear whining slightly from rest as it builds up the pressure in the gearbox. The gears are fixed in a sun/planet configuration, and brake bands controlled by fluid pressure through solenoids lock one sun wheel each, forcing others to turn, and this gives the four ratios. On the A4LDE the gear solenoids are controlled directly by the PCM, but on earlier gearboxes fantastically complicated channels and valves controlled the main line pressure from one valve to another to produce the correct ratio according to speed.
That's a matchbox explanation of the auto drive - there are complications, like a third disk between the halves of the torque converter to prevent the fluid returning in the wrong direction and anti-cavitation, but that's essentially how it works. With nothing connecting the two halves except for fluid, there is no reason to disengage the drive while stationary. The torque converter produces only enough torque to provide a creep at tickover, and this is easily checked with the footbrake. The only thing to remember is that catalysts can be damaged by very long periods of engine idle, so if stuck in a traffic jam it is best to turn off the engine altogether.
Actually, continually disengaging the drive subjects the gear selection mechanism to ten or twenty times more wear than is necessary, as well as increasing the work of the transmission fluid pump which has to make up the loss of main line pressure while it was in P.
In the handbook on P90 Ford advise -
Stopping - release the accelerator pedal and depress the foot brake (doh!) Leave the selector lever where it is. To move off again release the foot brake and depress the accelerator pedal.

HTH

Eric R

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by RICHIJONES on Dec 31^st, 2004, 5:30pm

Thanks for the above explination, now i know more about how the torque converter works i can see it is better to stay in drive. Selecting neutral at every stop just means more work and wear for the box and selector. Automatic means just that.
Thanks

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by tjp_lawson on Dec 31^st, 2004, 5:35pm

yes very good thats probably the best explanation i`ve ever read, in a nutshell, thats why the transmission will hold the car on a gradient without using the footbrake

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 2^nd, 2005, 6:15pm

I disagree. When left in gear at traffic lights /junctions the box will be under load but the vehicle is forced to remain static using the brakes. this is turn heats up the box and over a period of time may cause premature wear to the brake bands and the oil pump. Also the highway code states that when stic at junctions ect you should always put the car in neutral and apply the handbrake

Cheers Nick

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Eric_R on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 3:19pm

Nick,
No, that's nonsense. :P There is no 'heating' of the fluid because no torque is being delivered and the 'box is 'freewheeling'. You could remain at idle and hold the box on the footbrake all day and the fluid would not overheat - the surface area of the autobox sump is perfectly adequate to lose what heat there is. You'd probably damage the catalysts, though. :'(

If you should select N while stopped then Ford would absolutely have to say so in their Owners Handbook - but they do not, and in fact they state the exact opposite - and that's for the reasons stated.

Don't know what Highway Codes you are looking at. Rules 146-159 refer to appropriate behaviour at junctions and there is no mention whatever of taking the car out of gear and setting the handbrake ???

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Snoopy on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 3:51pm

Nick, I have to agre with Eric on this one... The correct way to drive and automatic is as he states.... NO need to drop into neautral at all when staionary at juctions etc as long as you keep your foot on the brake...I have had automatics for many a year now ans never had any problems with brake bands or the like and I used to drive around london a lot ...

more wear on the selctor dropping it into neutral all the time....

If you need a upto date copy of the Highway code then go here

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/00.shtml

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Vulcan on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 5:25pm

I no longer drop it into neutral anymore unless I am in stationary traffic for a really long period when I do it just to save having my foot on the brake all the time. ;D

That said my father in law had an Omega that used to drop itself into neutral if it was stationary with a foot on the brake for more than 2 minutes. You didn't need to select drive when wanting to move off as it automatically would do it for you if it had selected neutral itself in this way. I doubt that Vauxhall would have had such a feature if it was totally unnecessary.. would they?
???

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Baz on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 5:28pm

The correct way to drive an auto (Cosworth)?

Bloody quickly if you ask me!!

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by George on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 5:32pm

i agree sideways and fast

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Mmonster on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 5:51pm

is there any other way ??!!

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by phuturephantasy on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 9:40pm

Well I'm glad I'm not the only owner who drives his Scorpio to the limits (at appropriate times of course).

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by OddJob on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 10:25pm

on 01/03/05 at 17:28:30, Baz wrote:

The correct way to drive an auto (Cosworth)?

Bloody quickly if you ask me!!

GOOD ONE :D :D

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 3^rd, 2005, 11:29pm

Once you get an auto you become a right lazy b****r, so even keeping your foot on the brake at traffic lights
is almost hard work. I'd rather the car didn't creep AT ALL when idling and in "drive ", and only started to move forward at round about 1000/1100 rpm.

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by geraghtyg on Jan 4^th, 2005, 2:01am

Well if I'm going to be sitting in traffic or a lights for a while, I usually stay in drive and just pull the handbrake up. It needs a fairly good yank though or the car will creep. Maybe I'm putting more wear on the handbrake cable though! And when I say "a fairly good yank", I don't mean that I'm trying to reef the thing - I just have to bring it up a little further than would normally do when parking and switching off the engine.

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 4^th, 2005, 12:13pm

on 01/03/05 at 15:19:42, Eric_R wrote:

Oh well it looks like im wrong on that one then :-X Lynn passed her test in an auto and was told to put the car in neutral and apply the handbrake at junctions.... maybe she had a instuctor who was a bit old fashioned i dont know.... As for the box heating up i spose it makes sence whatr u say eric but i remember being told this when i used to drive auto's .... HMMMM thinking about it it was my grandfather who told me this LOL. i think technology has moved on a bit.....

soz for any confusion caused ;)

Cheers Nick ;)

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 4^th, 2005, 12:16pm

As for the 24v the correct way

manulaly into 1st.......... 6200rpm then;
2nd......... 6200rpm......

you catch my drift? LOL

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by craig on Jan 4^th, 2005, 12:38pm

nick

amanda passed in an auto as well,and was told by the instructor to do exactly the same as you have quoted,again the instructor was from the old school (approx 60 ish),so maybe this is just a case of being cautious by the instructors,and also might just be a "this is how you should drive".........

never last's long anything like that after passing your test now does it ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 4^th, 2005, 4:43pm

Quite right Craig......

it should st8....... rest ur arm on the door ledge, spin the steering wheel round with the palm of your hand ect ect. much more realistic i think. BTW i have just been demoted to Lynns clio now as i did promise her my escy ghia so now i dont even own a ford :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by waders on Jan 4^th, 2005, 4:53pm

Sell the Clio, buy a Scorpio and have some change for petrol :P

8) :o 8) :o 8)

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Mrs Phuturephantasy on Jan 4^th, 2005, 5:06pm

That sounds a brillant idea and u will have plenty change for petrol and u might be able to get afew toys ,

Who wants to have a clio after having a loverly scorpio now thats a big step down .

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 4^th, 2005, 5:42pm

tell me about it but its not for long :D well march 1st to be presice, then its cost free motoring for me (except diesel0 woohoo

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by johnv on Jan 4^th, 2005, 7:50pm

what's all this mumbo jumbo about putting an auto-gearbox into neutral and handbrake on while waiting for a gap to become vacant in traffic.
By the time you have re-put the gear-lever into drive again and took off the handbrake you will have lost your chance in the clear amount of room to safely enter the main road.
But in any case, you don't put it into neutral you put it into Park.
This is how you drive an automatic.
Put on your seat belt.
Make sure the gear-selector is in P not N.
make sure the hand-brake is on.
Start the engine.
Then put your foot on the foot-brake.
Then put the lever in either the D or R according to which way you want to go.
The release the hand-brake.
Press the throttle pedal and off you go.
----------------------------------------------------------------
If you need to stop for a short while at traffic lights, or road junction, apply the foot brake, leave the hand brake alone.
If you can see that there is a major hold up and you not going to move for the un-forthseen future. Like a long time.
Put the gear-lever into Park, not neutral. apply the hand-brake even if it not needed as in Park the car will not be going anywhere.
All this strirring the gear selecter around at the sightess stop will only cause wear and tear in the long term future.

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by johnv on Jan 4^th, 2005, 8:05pm

Some years ago, I drove an Air Crash Rescue Foam Truck in the RAF.
It was six wheel drive, four wheel steering, five speed forward and the same five speeds backwards as you did not have a reverse gear, you just reversed the gearbox.
It could also be driven across a river, because the hull was water tright. You used the six wheels to move you forward plus a power unit from the exhaust.
This had a fuild coupling and a pre-select gearbox.
To change gear you selected which gear you wanted, (which did nothing) until you wanted that gear, then depressed the gear change pedal, (no not the clutch pedal, the gear change pedal.
You could bomb up to traffic lights which where on Red and pre-select 2nd gear then as the lights changed to green as you approached you could say take out of 2nd then put it into say 4th or anything you liked.
I have never burnt out a fuild couping by remaining in drive for short hold-ups.

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by Snoopy on Jan 4^th, 2005, 9:21pm

I take offence ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D "Old school" what has AGE got to do with it....... Driving a motor vehicle properly has NOTHING to do with age... its all down to instruction...... Just because you have an ADI sitting next to you telling you how to drive does not mean he is doing the correct way...... and the other thing is when driving a mortor vehicle you do not have '

'Chances you have opportunities .......

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by colinw on Jan 4^th, 2005, 9:36pm

the first time i ever drove a auto ,i had to move my mates old mans 3.5p6 rover ,i sat behind wheel looked at the stick and thought what do i do now ,jim said never driven an auto before then heres what you do put it neutral start engine left foot hard on brake put it into d hold brake pedal hard rev it up with right foot give it about 3500-4000 revs and take your foot off brake ,me being stupid did exactly that went off like a scalded cat up the drive from his farm ,best way to drive an auto though ,im only on third cossie box now ,they dont last long do they!!!!

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by JohnJ on Jan 4^th, 2005, 9:42pm

Common lads give it a break!!!!

Just drive the thing anyway you like! Chances are your not gonna have it long enough to notice any ware you might cause (unconfirmed) so I say sod it.

Change down change up stick it in PNDR12 21RPN XYZ.. if you can find it.

Heres the proper way.
Turn OFF TC (if Available)
Lock the steering wheel (any direction)
Rev to 6300rpm and hold there on the limiter (not to long)
Select 1 on the selector (Go Direct)
And instant merry go round (weeeeeeeeee!)

Thats probely bad advice and is not to be taken seriously. Do it at your own risk.. I didnt do that to any future buyers of my car, I honestly dont know the outcome of that manouver.

JJ

Title: Re: Correct way to drive an auto ?
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 4^th, 2005, 10:53pm

I remember seeing one of those US Police Camera Action
shows, where some scalliwags had nicked a car tied up the steering wheel to full right lock w edged the gas pedal open , and put the car into Drive then legged it.

Result ? One very large and unstoppable car going round in circles. Rather than wait till it ran out of gas, one brave copper smashed the side window, jumped in ( after a few attempts ) and managed to turn off the ignition.