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        General >> Problems >> CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutdown)
        
(Message started by: Sian_RK on Jan 6^th, 2005, 11:53pm)

Title: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutdown)
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 6^th, 2005, 11:53pm

This is a weird one. I've searched the forums for sensible answers with no luck; it would be nice if the forum archives were really searchable way back, but it seems some earlier posts are gone.

We went on holiday for three weeks; when we got back the otherwise faithful Scorpio was dead. I charged the battery for a while and restarted it; it was very reluctant to restart, but did eventually (I suspect damp in the coils, we've had misfire intermittently when starting). It ran for a while, but when I went to it the windows wouldn't work, then I noticed all the instuments were dead.

Charged the battery which registered maximum draw. I think that the voltage dropped below 10v, which would cause computers to reset?

Anyway, let it charge to a claimed 75 percent full, then tried again. Car started, ran, then all the electrical systems shutdown. When they did, the headlight washers activated. One headlight went out (I think the bulb blew). The engine keeps on running throughout this, of course. I have no alternator light coming on at any time. The ABS computer has been reporting errors recently, suspect a sensor.

Car would start again a little later, but shutdown quickly (engine still running - it's all the ancilliary circuits; wipers, washers, windows, instruments (not radio), brake lights etc.

I disconnected -ve and reconnected, not for that long - a minute or so. The Radio wants a code, the car obviously restarted, but again, after a while (long enough to get warmed up) the system shut down.

The battery now claimed to be at 25% on the charger.

Is it simply that any less than 100% and the drain exceeds the car's ability to provide charge? Is the alternator failing? Or perhaps the battery (surely there would be no spark/no engine if that were the case?) - or is the CCM failing, and if so, how difficult is it to repair or replace?

For future searchers:

Instruments dead
Battery Failure
CCM Failure
Central Control Module shutdown
Windows inoperative
Car keeps running

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Baz on Jan 7^th, 2005, 12:06am

I would say first to try a new battery. The scorpio is very sensitive when it comes to battery power. Secondly, is there any sign of water ingress anywhere such as fuse boxes etc. Has it got is battery and fuse box covers. Check the obvious and cheap things first I would say and good luck.

If you can get access to an OBD lead, maybe this will throw some light on the problems (or at least some of them anyway

Baz

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 7^th, 2005, 12:51am

All the covers are in place, though for some reason all our cars were drenched inside and out - has it been the UK's wettest December or something? Even the Sera was soggy (the Supra I can forgive, it has a leak I'm vaguely aware of).

In fact the battery area looks pretty dry. I'm guessing either a component is failing (like, a discrete component in the module, or something which overheats and resets itself) or the battery is trashed, perhaps it has over-discharged. When I first tried to start the car, the starter span without engaging, though, rather than the usual 'click' and dead warning lights.

Has no-one had a similar experience?

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by bigmaltwo on Jan 7^th, 2005, 2:57am

notice you said the battery warning light didnt come on at any time. the warning light MUST come on with the ignition on, otherwise the alternator will not charge at all! :o (this feed provides the initial excitation of the field coil windings to start it charging) Also. if the battery was totally flat, it can take quite a while (several days is common) to actually start to take a charge and 'settle down' :-[. The other problem can be down to the alternator trying to 'work its nuts off' and (over)charge a totally flat battery, similar to if the lead/s was/were disconnected whilst it was running. This can lead (no pun intended) to the alternator going open circuit, and blowing itself trying! :o My advice would be to either try a different (fully charged) battery, or to let your's charge for several days and try again. If the battery warning light doesnt come on at all (with ignition on), either the w/l bulb has blown, or the alternator must be suspect!
good luck!

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by colinw on Jan 7^th, 2005, 6:25am

you say your cars were drenched inside and out ,if thats the case i would suspect drivers side fuse box ,is partially if not totally at fault ,i had a similar problem last year ,even though covers are in place ,damp can still get in and work its way through the various layers of box ,this would account for why certain things work ,then stop and others start working ,there is some info on main site regarding rebuilding fuse boxs ,it looks a daunting task but in reality is very easy just a taf awckward ,certainly i would get this checked before buying a new battery ,
Colin

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 7^th, 2005, 2:06pm

I mean the alternator light doesn't come on when things fail - the bulb check when starting the car is fine (except when the CCM or whatever has reset, in which case, there is nothing, no ignition lights or anything).

I think, sadly, a new battery is the answer. Frankly I'd rather swap the CCM. What were Ford thinking when they designed that battery box!

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by waders on Jan 7^th, 2005, 2:35pm

Sian,

The bulk head infront of the battery under the bonnet is removable :o,

makes it MUCH easier to change or remove the battery ;)

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 7^th, 2005, 3:40pm

Erm, yeah, I know that. It's still a PITA to change compared to most other cars.

Dropped a voltmeter over the battery terminals - 13.4V - started car, ran, Charging seems fine, getting 14V straight away - then the voltage climbs. And climbs. The car seems to shut down as it hits 16v. Now, I don't know how good my test is for anything useful since it is just connected across the terminals and doesn't show current draw, but switching on everything made little difference.

My Supra's voltmeter runs as high as 18v (marking wise), but is it possible that the 16v is triggering some protection, and if so, is it because the battery is drawing too much current, or is the alternator dead?

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Badboytunes on Jan 7^th, 2005, 5:38pm

What is a CCM? ???

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 7^th, 2005, 5:53pm

Central Control Module - it controls a lot of the Multiplex-wired car's devices such as windows, some lights (seemingly). I'm not sure how much it is responsible for; I think that there is some sort of over-voltage relay tripping which is shutting down a bunch of stuff /including/ the CCM. The overvoltage would also explain why one headlight blew.

You'd think Ford would know better. They took over Volvo, who used a similar system (not multiplexed to the best of my knowledge) on the 480 with well-known results.

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by colinw on Jan 7^th, 2005, 6:04pm

sian
go back to my earlier posting re the fusebox ,the one on the drivers side can be prone to dampness ,it is a bit of a pig to remove but dead easy to rebuild ,this box controls a lot of the cars electronics fuses 17 &16 i think from memory both 7.5 amp will cause allsorts of obscure probs ,i know to my cost ,before you go to expense of new battery or ccm ,i would certainly check it out ,because for what its worth i think you will be wasting your money and still come back to a fusebox related problem
Colin

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 7^th, 2005, 6:08pm

The fusebox is bone dry, no oxidisation on the contacts - it's a 98 and well looked after, so I don't think it's had time to get thoroughly damp. However, if the rain lets up for just ONE second, I'm going to shove a fan heater in it. We thought PEI in Canada was wet, but I forgot just how miserably damp this country is :(

BTW - It's the RK part - Sian is my gf, it's her car, but she's too busy to post about the car most of the time ;)

Since I am able to replicate the fault with a definite cause - the voltage from my crude test exceeding 15.5V or 16V - and there is a definite reset time, be it the battery voltage dropping again to a point where the car will be happy, or some protection resetting - then I suspect either a dead cell on the battery or the regulator on the alternator has blown. I really, really hope that it isn't the latter.

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 8^th, 2005, 5:56pm

New battery from Halfords - £63, the expensive, heavy duty, calcium type (oddly enough, the battery in the Scorpio is also a calcium type). There was a change, in that the voltage measured in parallel across the terminals hit nearly 18v before the car shut down, but it still all shut down.

I think it's the alternator. 18v must be real overvoltage, stuff has to be shutting off to protect itself from damage.

At least the battery wasn't as much hassle to swap as I thought. My old Granada Scorpio had a metal, bolted in section of bulkhead to remove, not a clipped in plastic bit.

Title: Re: CCM Death? (Flat battery, now electrical shutd
Post by Snoopy on Jan 9^th, 2005, 7:31am

have you tried running the car withour the alternator connected to see if it still shuts down... that is running on bttery alone.... It does sound as though the voltage regulator has gone the alternator Its a zener diode h cotrols tif I remember correctly .. but worth doing just to check and then get it checked out or replaced....

the car should start and run on juts the battery for a test....if its fully charged....