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        General >> Problems >> Still dead!? 2.3 16v
        
(Message started by: Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 4:32pm)

Title: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 4:32pm

Okay. Fuseboxes checked. Battery replaced. Alternator replaced.

NOW the car doesn't even start, let alone start, run, then shut down all electronics. The 2.3 only has two wires to the alternator, and those are fitted correctly. The battery is nice and healthy. When I switch on the ignition, I get nothing on the instruments; radio, heated seats still work. Headlights, if switched on, activate the washers. No windows. PATS looking normal.

I cannot believe that not using a car for three weeks can kill it so comprehensively.

I've disconnected the battery (as well as disconnecting to swap the alternators), this new twist is just infuriating.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:02pm

sorry Sian ..I haven't seen this post before but if this twist is new.. then is there any chance that a wire has been missed when you reconnected the battery ? ..one of the thinner reds feeds the ignition/instruments/etc .. just a thought ...... regards .STN

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:04pm

Bloody 1998 redesign.

My glovebox doesn't seem to detach the same way as the one detailed in the 'CCM' technical reference. Perhaps the diagram isn't clear, but I see no way of 'prising the bracket to one side'.

And for the alternator belt details - on this 1998 2.3 there is no idler pulley between the crank and A/C compressor, and the bolt on the idler is 15mm, not 17mm.

There is a computer bolted 'below' the glovebox, covered by carpet. Is this the CCM or something else?

How much is it going to cost to replace the CCM? Would we be better off just setting fire to this ill-conceived wreck of a car (Ford, step AWAY from the sophisticated electronic crap - if Mercedes can't do it now, then Ford certainly shouldn't have been trying in 1998), or is it worth trying to find out why three weeks of being parked appears to have rendered it completely unusable?

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Snoopy on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:07pm

As STN states ..... Its has been know for the thinner lead from the battery to be dropped and missed completely.... Several members have done it.. well worth checking otherwise its the main link fuses in the main fuse box worth looking at... Also check the earth leads from the battery to the chassis... otherwise see how far the current is getting with a voltmeter.. follow it through as per the wiring diagram..

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:11pm

on 01/16/05 at 17:02:09, SaveTheNight wrote:

All the wires are connected. I disconnected -ve, not positive.

There are two wires on the alternator. Holding the alternator in front of you with the terminals lowest, the fat wire without captive nut goes on the left, the thin wire with captive nut goes in the middle. At least, that's how they were set up on the old one, and the old and new ones are both identical, genuine Bosch/Ford parts.

All four battery wires are connected.

When you turn the key, you get: Radio, fuel pump (or similar noise from the back), heated seats are functional, sometimes there is a chime, headlights work (washers activate when you turn the lights on), no brakelights, no signals, no LCD or analogue instruments, no dashboard lights, no climate controls.

What used to happen, was that the car would start and run, then after a few minutes, the headlight washer would go, the instruments would shut off, and the engine would carry on running but without any ancilliaries (as above). If you switched off the car, it wouldn't restart (no attempt, no turning over, no lights, nothing - as above). Left for a while it would restart, but do the same thing. It was apparently overcharging, causing some sort of shutdown for the electronics - a voltemeter across the terminals gave 18v at one point.

The battery was replaced first, making no difference. Then the alternator was replaced (today) with a brand new/remanufacturered or whatever Ford unit. Having replaced it, the car is now not starting at all. No sign of life from ignition, other than the radio. Same behaviour as when it was shutting down to reset itself.

Battery voltage is 14v measured without a load - a perfectly healthy brand new battery IIRC.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Snoopy on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:22pm

All the glove box mounts are the same and it does require a lot of force to prise it off as far as I can remember and that is the only way to get it off...... I have one taken from a scrap car and believe me that took some getting out so that is the way.....

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Snoopy on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:28pm

These syptoms are synonymous with water in the electrics or damage to the main wiring loom ..(Part of this post removed incorrect data supplied!)

Also all the main plugs and connectors well worth making sure the plugs to the fue boxes are pushed home tight.. these have been know to give problems also where the main loom goes through the left hand bulkhead is also some cause for concern......

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:40pm

Quote:

Okay. Fuseboxes checked. Battery replaced. Alternator replaced

the wires to the battery must have been disconnected ..

I think perhaps that you are trying to do too many things at once Sian ... the car doesn't have a life as some will think ..and three weeks standing will not have rendered it unusable < although later attempts to rectify the cause may certainly do that >.. slow down .. recompose yourself .. and lets have the precise story bit by bit .. we will all try to help .. STN
< PCM's CCM's are almost indestructable and have many internal protection devices .. it does happen of course but unlikely > ..

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by colinw on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:49pm

i know i have mentioned this before but when you said you have checked fusebox ,have you actually removed and stripped down the main drivers side box ,last easter i suffered similar probs to yourself ,car had a nind of its own ,sometimes would not start other times not switch off ,headlights worked regardless of switch position but no tail lights allsorts ,all covers were in place ,and looked ok ,on removing box and stripping it down to individual layers it was in a terrible state ,cleaned up refitted a squirt of contact cleaner to all plugs connectors to it refitted and all was well again ,im a bit perplexed as to why you are convinced it is the ccm ,as save the night says ,these things are almost indestructable unless they have been messed with ,

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 16^th, 2005, 5:51pm

excess voltage from the alternator will have boiled the battery and also given an acrid smell while charging ..but you seem to have cured that with replacement so don't " link " the symptoms if you can help it .. back to square one if poss .. the loom is unlikely to be the fault on that car but water ingress to the fuses could well be .. it's worth checking the main ignition relay < Snoopy will advise which > ..and the fuseable links in the fuse boxes .. are you suspect of any water ingress or not ? .. cheers ..STN
oops ..Colin beat me to it ! .. also check the small wire to the starter for 12v on cranking ..presumably it isn't getting it ..and you can work backwards .. is the car auto or manual ? ..

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:31pm

on 01/16/05 at 17:28:26, Snoopy wrote:

These syptoms are synonymous with water in the electrics or damage to the main wiring loom .. there is documentation to the fact that the cars suffered loom damage from water leaks between the heads, have you checked.... the loom between the heads?

Between the heads? Head/s/? On a 2.3 1998 Ultima 16v ;)

Sorry. I'm frustrated with the car, but since I first posted, everyone has said "it's the fusebox" or "it's water". I think that the fusebox stripdown is a lot of work with an extremely low probability of success in fixing this problem, or indeed, finding the problems that have affected much older cars which have been missing their covers (or, like the example on the website, have been left with the covers off and the bonnet open in the rain).

Flowchart of problem:

Car won't start - battery is dead.
Charge battery. Car starts, runs for approx. 5 minutes, then instruments and warning lights die, turn signals and brakelights, windows, fan all disabled.
Check voltage. Voltage at battery is 16v when shutdown occurs.
Replace battery (dead cell causing excessive drain?) - car starts, runs, shuts down. Check voltage. 18v at shutdown.

NOTE THAT ALL THE CONNECTIONS AT THIS STAGE HAVE BEEN CHECKED - fuseboxes checked for moisture by random checking of fuses for corrosion rather than systematic, but no evidence of water ingress. Yes, for the n'th time, it DOES have a battery cover ;).

Decide overvoltage is most likely a failed regulator. Replace alternator.

Car seems to be locked in the 'shutdown' state.

Now, I've just disconnected the alternator and tried it, and no change. So I'm leaving the battery disconnected overnight.

Please - all useful and new advice is greatly appreciated but repetition doesn't help - assume that if it's been suggested, I've tried it, because if it's fixed someone else's car, I'll give it a go!

I've owned 114 cars and worked on a lot of them myself (over 20 of them have been Citroens of the CX and XM varieties - I'm used to weird electronic problems); I'm asking in here because I really am baffled by the Scorpio's current behaviour and hoped for experienced, logical suggestions as to the cause of the problem.

Again, all the help is greatly appreciated, especially from the experienced owners - but this car /has/ the covers and always has done. There is no reason to suspect water ingress. I will, if there are no other explanations/solutions, go to the trouble of stripping down the fuseboxes, but only once I have all the information to have correctly eliminated faults that assume the wiring is intact.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:34pm

on 01/16/05 at 17:40:08, SaveTheNight wrote:

The wires were disconnected.

(BTW: It's the RK half of Sian_RK, though since Sian can stripdown and rebuild a scooter and is well versed in Italian electrical systems - as well as once owning a Cadillac Hearse - she's as experienced as I am with badly-behaved cars. It's her car, but I'm the one with the spanners).

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:37pm

I wonder has the car been inadvertantly immobilised ?

Got the red key?

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by George on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:37pm

hi sian
i read earlier that you connected all four wires to your battery do you mean two to your positive and two to your negative or just four to your negative ......
my 2.3 16v has six on the battery it has on my positive one thick wire and one half the size of the other and on my negative i have one thick one and one half the other size again and two small black ones as well hope this is of any help

regards george

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:39pm

on 01/16/05 at 17:49:13, colinw wrote:

i know i have mentioned this before but when you said you have checked fusebox ,have you actually removed and stripped down the main drivers side box ,last easter i suffered similar probs to yourself

What you described is very unlike this car. This car has a very specific, repeatable pattern of operation ;)

However, no, I haven't removed the fusebox, because it's dry, the connections are good, and there is no sign of water ingress anywhere. It /could/ be that there is water in the fusebox, however, given the utterly predictable behaviour of the car prior to alternator replacement, I think the fusebox is fine (in fact, before the dead battery, which was down to lack of use and perhaps prior problems with the alternator) the car behaved perfectly.

I'm not convinced that the CCM is at fault at all. I am not familiar with the Ford's multiplex wiring, just other cars - so I can't assume either way. I have had problems with 480s which were due to their equivalent of the CCM failing; XMs which were earthing issues, and CXs due to failing componentry. If people say that CCM failure is unheard of, then I accept that, but then I want to know about the protections - what are the protections that are in place?

If, for example, someone can say that the instruments and windows being dead have nothing to do with the CCM, then I can discount the CCM.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:44pm

on 01/16/05 at 18:37:30, mr._floppy wrote:

I wonder has the car been inadvertantly immobilised ?

Got the red key?

No red key - I've read elsewhere that the '98 models maybe don't have one (handbook says otherwise) - however the LED for the anti-theft system isn't indicating anything out of the ordinary. Surely if the car was immobilised, the warning lights and so on would come on as normal on the dash? It has started every time when it 'recovered' from whatever this shutdown state is.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 6:55pm

on 01/16/05 at 18:37:46, George wrote:

There only appear to be four wires - perhaps someone has added equipment to your car, or it is a revision? Both sides have a fat and thin wire each. Certainly the car was working fine with these four.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by George on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:06pm

i may be wrong but i think you are two small black wires missing off your negative most fords have them and every scorpio i have worked on have them i will just ip outside and take a look where they go to

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:11pm

on 01/16/05 at 17:51:09, SaveTheNight wrote:

excess voltage from the alternator will have boiled the battery and also given an acrid smell while charging ..but you seem to have cured that with replacement so don't " link " the symptoms if you can help it ..
oops ..Colin beat me to it ! .. also check the small wire to the starter for 12v on cranking ..presumably it isn't getting it ..and you can work backwards .. is the car auto or manual ? ..

Well, the symptoms are identical. Don't recall the smell, since I checked with a voltmeter and shut the car down as soon as the electronics went off, I don't think it would have had time to be affected.

12v - if I had ignition/bulb warning on the dashboard, I'd be trying that. But I don't. Assuming it has a sequence of operations when you switch ignition on, it's not getting that far.

Say:

Turn key to ACC (position 1 or whatever) - radio and the like are enabled.
Turn key to ignition (position 2)
What should happen, I think, is - turn key. Ignition circuits enabled - bulb check on dash, instruments energised, PATS checks key (this doesn't seem to happen - red light continues to blink with steady intervals), other circuits such as starter and such enabled.

It's not getting the bulb check. PATS isn't checking the key - no warning lights to indicate a fault with PATS, or an invalid key - and needless to say turning the key to start has no effect whatsoever /but/ the relay for ensuring the power goes to the starter and not the rest of the car does click - radio goes off etc. Just with no reason. Starter inhibitor isn't a factor at this stage, the auto is sensing if it isn't in park (beep is working).

I think I must be able to discount the CCM, as the total closure system is functioning - open car, all windows down, lock car, rear windows then front windows close.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:12pm

on 01/16/05 at 19:06:11, George wrote:

I was just out there, and looked as I'd read your post beforehand - I can't find any extra wires anywhere. It's a 1998 model, perhaps they are different or the wires are bundled together onto one terminal.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by George on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:15pm

hi sian
i have just been out and took a look at mine and the two small black wires go down the front of the battery as do your main live and earth wires which are in like a big rubber gromet together and the two little black ones are about two or three inch across go through a metal lip into the wiring loom below and go through the bulkhead in the wiring loom hope this helps any

george

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:23pm

So there should be three, or four wires on the negative?

Without checking, I think that there were two actual wires connected to one terminal connection (the smaller one) on the -ve side. There is also the large +ve and a smaller +ve wire which I think is a single wire from memory. So perhaps five wires? Regardless, I'm sure everything is reconnected, but I'll have another look and double check. I checked down the sides of the battery etc. and found nothing; no extra wires.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by George on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:34pm

they are two wires together black in colour with a ring on the end ( obviously ) :) and about an inch from the ring goin away from the battery they go into like a sleeve of heat shrink then down through a gromit .. i will go an see if i can take a picture for you

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by colinw on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:35pm

ok for what its worth here is my last view on the subject as i dont wish to repeat myself ,but as i have earlier stated my 24v did the same thing ,it was parked for 3 days at airport on one of which it P**D down ,car had all covers and obviously bonnet shut ,it started fine ,then all electrics went completly haywire ,on getting it home it would not start ,next day started fine would not switch off ,i checked all fuses all looked ok no sign of moisture at all ,i tried everything inc different battery of a known vehicle all the same ,so i took bull by horns removed main box stripped it out and water poured out of it it was trapped in every layer and most tracks had been arcing ,but outwardly it showed no signs of a problem ,i honestly think you are going to have to remove this at some stage or spend a fortune looking elsewhere ,and then going back to it in the end
.sorry for going over old ground and dont wish to annoy you by repeating things ,but if you are happy all connections are ok at battery and at alternator ,there is not much left for you to check is there

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:39pm

on 01/16/05 at 19:34:41, George wrote:

No need for that! I just went outside and had another look - -ve side has one fat wire with it's own terminal, two thin wires going to a single terminal. I was looking at pictures of the battery removal page and saw a wire in a plastic tube, and wondered if I could have missed that, but this car doesn't have a wire there - all the wires are connected.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Snoopy on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:52pm

Right then Have you looked at the ignition switch... The back of it.. If you are not getting power then that has to be the place to start.. It appears to be oK in position I Radio and acces work ..... but the problems start happenening on position II so whats going on with the switch..... Worth checking there Is it possible that its shorting out on the back of the terminals... Stranger things have happened......

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 7:59pm

on 01/16/05 at 19:52:22, Snoopy wrote:

Position 1 I get radio etc, position 2, I'm definitely getting a fuel pump or something starting at the back - so /something/ is happening - but perhaps there are other feeds that need to be checked.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Snoopy on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:10pm

I appreciate your frustration and what appears to be lack of help..... but It really now has to be a process of elimination.. working forwards to where you loose the power... if its ok at he back of the ignition switch I don't know where I'd go from there possible to the ecu plugs and see it thats being powered up.. but you seem to have as much, if not more knowledge than me with regards electrics .......but reading your latter posts again I note that it does OK up to postion I and then there is some power on Position II but NOT ignition power so I'd be looking at the switch ....as I said... there are several ignition powered devices .... so a faulty switch would prevent them from operating.....

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 16^th, 2005, 8:47pm

on 01/16/05 at 20:10:18, Snoopy wrote:

It was relay 21.

Sorted.

(And, the overvoltage shutdown is sorted too - ran for a 10 mile drive without any major problems, though I did turn around when the radio seemed to go off then on again).

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by SaveTheNight on Jan 17^th, 2005, 12:34am

main black ignition relay then ... a few members have had it but with different symptoms .. well done and glad you sorted it RK ... STN

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Snoopy on Jan 17^th, 2005, 8:09am

Never come across that one in my life.. one to remember for the future particularilly with those syptoms... Wonder if the excess voltage from the alternator had anything to do with the relay failing?????

Any so pleased you got it sorted..... I have lost what little bit of hair I had........Now completely bald!

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by ash on Jan 17^th, 2005, 9:09am

in the drivers side fusebox engine compartment , there is a big electrical connector plug near the drainholes - check that coz mine came a bit loose somehow and had the same sysmptons as yours till i pushed the connector down. Its a big black connector with a silver clip on top. If you pull the silver clip up then the connector comes off and there are around 50 pins underneath or something , but basically check that connector coz if it comes up out of place a bit then all the electrics die. ???

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 17^th, 2005, 12:12pm

I'm not sure about the relay - I'm fairly sure that the original problem was the regulator failure, but because the symptons were in both cases ultimately "ignition circuit failure", I don't know if there is an overvoltage protection that isolated that circuit, or if the relay has some built-in protection, or perhaps the relay was simply burning out. Certainly the relay is still dead when in place for the heated front screen, and the car is starting and running correctly.

The fact that it's blown one headlight makes me suspect the overvoltage has caused some spikes which did the car no favours. It's running very well now it has the new alternator and battery, when before it would suffer misfiring sometimes - though again, it could be simply that it hasn't misfired yet.

Now I need to find the ABS problem. Light is at least on permanently, so next time I get it into the dealer they could read the code.

A new relay is on order, and I also checked the foglight situation - apparently there is still a part number for one side for the 98 model Scorpio (tinted), but the other side has been replaced with a different number so perhaps, the clear type.

Title: Re: Still dead!? 2.3 16v
Post by Sian_RK on Jan 17^th, 2005, 12:13pm

on 01/17/05 at 09:09:15, ash wrote:

I checked that first - Citroen experiences lead me to mistrust any large connector ;)