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        General >> Problems >> Auto Transmission Fluid Change
        
(Message started by: DB on Jan 25^th, 2005, 1:45pm)

Title: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by DB on Jan 25^th, 2005, 1:45pm

I read the advice on this site which said if the fluid is dark and not the original "orange" colour it should be changed unless it is burnt in which case the box is about to fail.

My 2.3 scorpio has done 94k with no problems but the fluid is black (not surprising after 94k). I planned a fluid change and was quoted £130k at a local dealer, £280k by Ford. (Fluid £90, parts £30 and 90 minutes labour at an hourly rate that makes the eyes water)

However when ordering the parts from Ford the spares man said, if it ain't broke don't fix it, guaranteeing that if I change the fluid and filter the box will seize up shortly thereafter.

It is difficult to sort out the best advice. Any comments?

Thanks,

Dave

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by desperate on Jan 25^th, 2005, 2:03pm

£130 is proberly about right tbh. The best i was quoted was £120..

.. Though the pro's do a good job of it, sucking out ALL of the old oil from the box and if i'm not mistaken, then TC as well.

Mine is arange/brown !! Which suggests to me that all is not well in there somewhere - a problem i know i have.

BUT.. Is it worth spending the money on the oil change rather than putting it towards the 850 it'd cost for the recon gearbox IF it needs one.

I'm doing an OBD-2 scan on mine to see if anything comes up.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by urbanracer on Jan 25^th, 2005, 3:44pm

Middle of last year I could not select reverse,took Scop to an autotrans company,they did a full transmisssion service,changed fluid and filter,cost me £106.
Cars been ok since with a nice smooth change.
Seems strange the parts man gives you that info,no lubricant lasts forever its must deteriorate over time and milage and also pick small bits od debris.Thats why it changes colour.
But if it does not need fixing why do it is a good policy,I needed too,but you change your engine oil and the ATF does get very hot.

Joe

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Jan 25^th, 2005, 5:26pm

Can I ask who the autotrans peeps were who did your work? Mine's doing that exact won't select reverse gear thing. My mate with the garage said he would look at it and do the change etc but I'm not sure whether I should take it to a specialist.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Jan 27^th, 2005, 6:19pm

Well after phoning about today loads of places I basically drew a blank. Everywhere I asked said they either didn't have the equipment to suck the oil out of the box or they threw their hands up in horror (metaphorically speaking) and said Nooo! you can't do that!!

Mr Clutch said that they wouldn't touch the Scorpio gearbox as draining and refilling could do more harm than good. ??? ???

One place gave me vague directions to some little unit behind a Jet garage that would do it for me, just ask for Wayne :o Yeah right I'll be off to there then....not!!

I have one last place to try and that's a place in Dunston given to me by Bertie. I'll give them a ring tomorrow. It's never been so hard to get someone to take my money... ;D

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by phuturephantasy on Jan 27^th, 2005, 10:11pm

Funny that - I went into my local AA Service centre and asked them to do an auto transmission fluid change at the same time as an engine oil change and they basically refused suggesting that auto fluid should last the life of the gearbox and changing it is as likely to ''free off debris and send it into the gears' thus causing more damage than if it had been left alone. This was not on my Scorpio but on a Mazda Xedos I had but I was told it was relevant to all automatics.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Paul_Boulden on Jan 27^th, 2005, 11:08pm

I can`t see why replacing ATF should make a situation worse, have you read the page on this site about changing the filter:- http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/aboxfilters.htm
This seems to recmmend the procedure.
I will be changing the fluid and filter on my box soon, after 129,000 miles the fluid is rather brown but not smelling burnt, I guess the seals are breaking down.

Paul Boulden

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Jan 27^th, 2005, 11:20pm

Yeah I read that too.. but I am past crawling under cars and fiddling with sockets an' stuff. I am at a time in my life now where I like to pay for someone qualified to do it for me. ;D

Most places seem to be protecting themselves rather than just not being able to do it... sort of a scenario where they drain your box and refill it then a month later you sue them 'cos it gave up and died. They won't take the risk it seems...

I may just sound out Ford too.. I phoned today but the service dept wasn't taking calls as the booking system was down (or full) they put me through to another dept(not sure where but affiliated with Ford to do services etc) but the guy said the job was beyond him ???
Oddly I felt he was laughing at me under his breath when I told him what I wanted to do...mind you this could be my own paranoia... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by john.n on Jan 28^th, 2005, 7:56am

Vulcan, have been following this post with interest (for obvious reasons). Phoned my local gearbox man-recommended by AA Charlie. He says a rebuild without the torque converter would be in the region of £550-600. Just to give you an idea of possible cost, hope it doesnt come to that though. john.n :(

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Jan 28^th, 2005, 8:06am

Hi John,
by all accounts a fluid change cures this reverse problem so I am hoping I can get someone to do it. My mate Ronnie who owns the garage I use for my servicing etc said he couldn't get all the oil out of the box and wasn't sure of the procedure so he advised I find a specialist. Hopefully I will find someone who is willing to do it. As a last resort I could show Ronnie the page on this site and that should help him to do it...

Ah well another round of phone calls today... ;D

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Snoopy on Jan 28^th, 2005, 8:12am

If you drain the box yourself you will get aprox 50% of the oil out..... with a filter change and new gasket it is well worth it.. and then change the oil again in say 6 months that changes about 75% of the oil..... thats the way some of the guys on here do it..... it is a messy job though, and clear access is required to the underside /middle of the car.. not one I would recommend doing lying on your back on a driveway with dust and stuff blowing around..... you do have to remove or loosen the exhaust to get at some of the bolts for the sump on some of the models ......Good Luck.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 28^th, 2005, 8:19am

hi there

here's a post from the mailing list.....

Hei

My procedure as follows

Prior change of filter

Disconnect one oilpipe to radiator, put something under to collect oil,
Start engine and allow idling until approx one litre have poured out
Stop engine and fill one fresh/new litre of gear oil
Repeat until approx 5 litres have been changed this way
Connect oilpipe to radiator
Change Atobox filter, allow an hour or so to drain prior assembling

After change of filter
Fill up with appox 8 litre fresh / new gear oil
Start engine and check level
Fill to correct level
Disconnect again one oilpipe to radiator, put something under to collect
oil,
Start engine and allow idling until approx one litre have poured out
Stop engine and fill one fresh/new liter of gear oil
Repeat until approx 5 litres have been changed this way
Connect oilpipe to radiator

Will cost you 10 litre of new oil, however much less if done by a
specialist shop
At least in Norway
(Autobox oil cost is approx 5 Euro; hourly cost at specialist shop is 90
Euro)

mvh terje g

hope it helps a bit.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Jan 28^th, 2005, 11:10am

I am getting a bit creaky in my old age to be crawling under cars, anyway I only have my driveway and a couple of axle stands so doing it myself is probably a no goer.

Phoned up a place called Gearbox Repair Specialists who were all fired up to do it till I told them it was an auto. I was then told they didn't do autoboxes but they could give me a number of a guy called Wayne who'd do it. All roads lead back to Wayne it seems.. anyway I gave him a ring and he's gonna order the parts and do it next week for me. He seems to know his stuff when I talked with him on the phone and knew the exact box in the Cossie without me telling him. I'll see how it goes...

;D ;D

btw Patterson Fords' want the thick end of 300 quid for the job....

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by gaz01gaz on Jan 28^th, 2005, 2:04pm

hi,how much is wayne charging for the job?????

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Jan 28^th, 2005, 3:20pm

He said he would ascertain the availability and cost of the parts and get back to me with a full cost.
Not been back on yet but he's apparently a busy bloke so I'll be patient, I have to phone him Monday anyway so in any event I'll find out then.

Anything cheaper than Ford's quote has to be a bonus and I suspect it'll be a fair bit cheaper.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 28^th, 2005, 3:27pm

hi there

should be in the region of £120 to £170 complete. i got it done just over a year ago for £110 inc VAT.

hth

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by waders on Jan 28^th, 2005, 7:49pm

I've had the ATF and filter changed in two Scorp 'box's and I have to say it IS worth the hassle of doing. Smooth, smooth, smooth. The people who are making the mechanic's Oooo noises, don't know what they are doing or as suggested are covering there butt's!! If you were in London I can point you to a real G/box specialist that would do it without hesitation, two in fact.
There was an Email on the list recently from Erick R after he had his changed, and his surprise in the difference it made!!

Keep serching ::)

waders.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by john.n on Jan 29^th, 2005, 9:58am

I cant understand how an oil change will cure what appears to be a mechanical problem? The only thing i can think of is that the filter becomes blocked. Can anyone enlighten me. john.n ???

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 29^th, 2005, 11:54am

Yeah, surely damage has been done to internal mechanisms when problems with no- drive and reverse are encountered.

Changing the fluid can only be a changing security device post equine departure manoeuvre.

I wonder if a lot of drive problems are actually the Torque Convertor rather than the box , are they generally trouble free?

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by urbanracer on Jan 29^th, 2005, 11:57am

I do not fully understand autoboxes,but the problem is not mechanical its caused by small particles of contamination/deris that are suspended in the ATF and then block the small gallyways in the box.
Over 20 years ago I sold all kinds of oil and even then when there were less autoboxes than today most large towns had autobox specalists some more specalized than others.When you see the components stripped down its like looking inside a cross section of a snails shell. With spirals that interconnect that the ATF flows around.Its when the ATF cannot flow correctly because of a blockage that may be partial and intermittant.
I am told that sometimes the filter also become partially blocked and sometimes break up
But as I said I do not understand autoboxes and I suppose there are lots of other possibilities..

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by waders on Jan 29^th, 2005, 2:37pm

on 01/29/05 at 11:57:33, urbanracer wrote:

I thought you started by saying you didn't understand auto boxs ???
This is bang right, an oil change will not help if there is a mechanical problem, but it may stop one developing because of oil degridation or partical contaminates.

The "it could make it worse" I think comes from the fact that "old" types of ATF formed a kind of resin build up around the oil seals and "new" ATF has detergents in it that can brake this down leading to leaks and a loss of internal pressure through internal seals. I do not believe this is the case today. (3 months ago I had a solenoid AND the oil and filter changed, sweet).

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Feb 9^th, 2005, 4:12pm

Ok got the oil and filter change done today, it's still doing the "wait for it..." reverse thing only not as bad. The guy I took it to, Wayne says he has worked on loads of these boxes and asked if it was also a bit slow to select 3rd when in drive... now you come to mention it it did seem to hang onto 2nd for a longer time than usual. This it appears is because (and this is my layman's interpretation of what he said) 3rd and reverse are on the same clutch and the oil seal rings are getting perished (hardened) with age. This is why when the box gets up to full temp that gear changes are when expected as the seals soften up and do their job better.
He showed me a sample of the old oil and although it was reddish in colour it was also opaque.

He said he doesn't normally hold with gearbox oil additives but in this case he put in some stuff from USA that sometimes helps to re-condition the seals... aside from that if it doesn't get any better it should possibly not get much worse but the only solution is a gearbox rebuild at a cost of about £600. This sadly ain't gonna happen as I don't have a spare £600 to thow at the car at the moment, seems I will put up with it for a while and see how we go.

The other option would be to buy a second hand box from someone and have him fit it, I have no idea how much to expect to pay for a second hand one and also no idea whether it would be any good.

So's we trundle along........ mostly forwards these days. :(

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Dave on Feb 9^th, 2005, 5:29pm

Hi Vulc.. sorry to hear about your trouble.

Just posting to say i've seen a lot of autoboxes go on eBay, first one 'fully working good condition' went for £75. At the moment there is this one, item #4526562338, he doesn't say anything about the condition and also he wants you to collect and he's very far from you. So not ideal.. pretty bad. But I tend to see them around once every two-three weeks.

It's fortunate that this is a pretty common gearbox! I think the A4LD/e actually appears in mid-nineties mustangs, aerostars, rangers,... dot dot dot.

Anyway.. good luck. I'll keep an ear to the ground.
You're Northumberland way, aren't you?

Dave

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Feb 9^th, 2005, 6:28pm

Yeah I'm in Newcastle. North east.

::)

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Snoopy on Feb 9^th, 2005, 8:22pm

Just one word of warning the A4LDe gear box is NOT the SAME as the one in the scrpio that uses the A4LDE gearbox Only the 12v has the A4LDe box in it.....

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Dave on Feb 9^th, 2005, 10:02pm

Ah ha!

and whoops.. I did not know that. I thought it was A4LD and A4LDe.... but it's actually A4LDe and A4LDE? Okie, noted for future reference.

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by OddJob on Feb 9^th, 2005, 10:47pm

Evening all ;D

Why wait I say ??? like most oil lubricated mechanical components they surely must respond better with a clean oil and filter. Surely then a service on the box should be treated as the norm from time to time. Besides aren't the brake bands supposed to checked and adjusted every two years or after so many miles as well ???

So I've listened to all you on this subject and decided to book mine in for next week (looking forward to smooth, smooth, smooth). Have also decide to look into having an auxiliary oil cooler fitted.

OddJob ;)

Title: Re: Auto Transmission Fluid Change
Post by Vulcan on Feb 9^th, 2005, 11:12pm

on 02/09/05 at 20:22:14, Snoopy wrote:

Just one word of warning the A4LDe gear box is NOT the SAME as the one in the scrpio that uses the A4LDE gearbox Only the 12v has the A4LDe box in it.....

Ah...I see so the possibilities of a good fit now narrow perceptibly...

Anyway the cost of a second hand box would be upwards of maybe £150, plus the labour cost at £30 an hour... might cost the same as just asking him to recon the box. I know he'll do a good job and he guarantees for a year...

just got to save up the spare now... :o

ps. Are there any OBD codes stored anywhere that my car will spit out regarding the gearbox? and if so is there anyone near North East england willing to read the said codes for me?