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        General >> Problems >> anyone found my 4th gear????????
        
(Message started by: gaz01gaz on Feb 4^th, 2005, 12:34am)

Title: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 4^th, 2005, 12:34am

first of all,i think this is fatal!!!!my 97' 2.9 24v recently suffered from "cattle grid syndrome"however today whilst on the m1 i noticed she was very reluctant to change up to 4th from 3rd gear under acceleration ??? if i backed off the throttle she changed up to 4th ??? i know this because by depressing the o/d button you can feel the gear change ???however i have to say i no longer notice the "cattle grid "effect.....anyone any ideas because i think it may be time to admit defeat :'(

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 4^th, 2005, 12:40pm

please help,anyone any ideas ??????i would just like to add that all the other gear changes are excellent and smooth,h.e.l.p......gaz

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by waders on Feb 4^th, 2005, 1:41pm

Hi Gaz,

Firstly you should try this;

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cleanmaf.htm

If it makes no change then get you car pluged in for some OBD.

You got a flashing O/D light?

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 4^th, 2005, 6:11pm

maf is clean as a whistle ???the o/d light used to flash when encountering cattle grid syndrome,however no flashing and no cattle grid??the gearbox works very smoothly and does select 4th when backing off or drifting along,strange,but under hard acceleration in either "s" or "e" well it revs for england,is this normal?will it stay in 3rd until red line????gear oil is level but a little off red colour,smells but doesn't all oil have a smell,i think the car auction is beckoning...be carefull all,thanks,,,gaz

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Eric_R on Feb 4^th, 2005, 6:46pm

Gaz,
Don't panic yet. It may be that the 3-4 shift solenoid is sticking slightly. If the gearbox fluid isn't burnt and foul-smelling and the autobox takes up the drive without too much delay it might be that just one solenoid needs replacing.
Did you ever get the OBD read? After the O/D light flashes there must be a DTC stored by the PCM and it stays there until three consecutive journeys without the same problem clears the code.
Meet with an OBD-equipped owner and have a look at the DTCs - this may well tell you all you need to know.

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 4^th, 2005, 10:19pm

the box takes up drive within a second or so in "r" or "d" or from one to the other,if the solenoid is dodgy do you think this why i have lost the cattle grid effect from 3rd to 4th???where can i get the fault codes read???

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Jim on Feb 5^th, 2005, 12:21pm

Eric_R, I have similar problems to Gaz (see overdrive not engaging). I do not have the cattle-grid. I do have an OBD. Would the sticking solenoid give dtc's. What readings on an OBD scan would be needed to identify the area of the problem.

Jim

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by waders on Feb 5^th, 2005, 1:50pm

Hi Jim,

A sticking solenoid SHOULD produce a dtc.

What software do you use with your OBD lead? Vehicle Explorer?
If so, You only need to check for logged dtc's on the codes page!!

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 5^th, 2005, 9:16pm

" fourth gear lock up " ..very common on the A4LDE .. Eric is spot on ... STN

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Eric_R on Feb 6^th, 2005, 4:14pm

Jim and Gaz,

If you have an OBD lead you can read any DTCs from the OBD system in VE by logging in to the system and selecting CODES page and request the codes.
Then, still on the CODES page, select ENHANCED and send for any Ford-specific codes.
If you have a solenoid malfunction expect a DTC in the range P1730-33 or P1761, which has been seen before.

See http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/easyguide.htm for the simple guide, and http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm

BTW, a Cattle-grid syndrome does not necessarily mean that there is a problem with the autobox. I noticed cattle-grid on my Scorpio in 1998, but to date I have not found a single DTC on my car and the autobox works flawlessly - I just drive to avoid the noise - see http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cattle.htm

HTH

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 7^th, 2005, 12:31pm

thanks eric for the advice,not sure what the next step is ??? do i need to get an obd scan???where can i get this done??? i am in sheffield area????thanks all

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 9^th, 2005, 8:37pm

well its off to the transmission specialist thursday morning :'( do or die i'm afraid ???????????

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 10^th, 2005, 2:51pm

>:( >:( now im really fed up,changed the oil and filter (gearbox) whilst he was having a look said he has drove it for an hour and it is all o.k,,,guess what,still the same,some specialist he is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Eric_R on Feb 10^th, 2005, 3:54pm

GAz,
I'm sorry to hear that, m8 :'( but a sticking solenoid is unlikely to be repaired by changing the fluid and filter - this is only useful on high-mileage gearboxes that are behaving well.

Ask again for anyone in the Sheffield area to meet you with an OBD lead and do an Enhanced check on your codes. I'm sure that will produce the answer you need, but again if you go to a skilled techy with experience in Ford autoboxes he will probably be able to tell which solenoid to check from experience alone. You need to ring around for a good specialist in your area.

BTW, how was the autbox fluid before he changed it? Was it still a good red colour, or burnt and smelly? If the latter then it would probably be best in the long run to go for a recon box.

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 14^th, 2005, 10:21pm

hi again,just a short update,i took my car back today to the box specialist and told him to go on the m1 and find 4th gear,guess what??? 1 hour later my phone rang,he said "yes mr carr i see what you are saying" phew at last! he talked about "lock up" aswell ???? not sure what all this is about,surely if the fault is 4th gear(o/d) then this is where he should be looking?? i have told him to bitz the box(gulp) and report back,he says worst scenario is recon the box for £800.00,best scenario £?,he says the oil was a little discoloured and found a little gritty stuff in the box sump but nothing to show any broken parts,he has taken it to another garage and checked for any fault codes but it read clear,well i should know by tuesday 15/2 so keep your eyes peeled on this thread,does anyone know what happens when the gearbox wiring deteriorates???would this be apparent when he removes the box???thanks all for advice,,gaz

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 17^th, 2005, 10:00am

UPDATE**UPDATE***
the gearbox specialist rang today and said one of the bands was burnt out and that there was virtually nothing left on it?????he has checked all the electronics and they are all ok,he reckons it will amount to about £300.00,,is this a fair price ???removal,repair,refit???

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 17^th, 2005, 10:48am

gaz ... in my opinion it's too reasonable !! ..it would be absolutely daft to replace one band when it's virtually the same job ... <gearbox removal and refit .. box strip etc >... and £300 is a bit too cheap for a full recon .. i'm a tiny bit suspect mate ... see what I mean I hope ?? ..see what everyone else thinks ....regards... STN

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by waders on Feb 17^th, 2005, 11:27am

on 02/04/05 at 18:46:45, Eric_R wrote:

Shift #3 solenoid replace-£200 tops ;)
Box recon- £650 to £800 :-/

STN, I reckon you got a good nose 8)Can anyone smell fish ???

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 17^th, 2005, 12:28pm

hi fellas,sorry i may have misled you,he is only replacing the worn band,what is the band?what does it do?he says all the solenoids were ok and not sticking,he mentioned that the servo was worn?he says that as well as the new parts in the box he is replacing all the gaskets and new oil,but depending on the parts prices it will finish up at around £300 - £350,what are you saying then?is it not likely that the worn bands will cause my fault?left me very confused ???

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Snoopy on Feb 17^th, 2005, 12:46pm

Hi there gaz , have read of this article http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission.htm
It might help explain in simplistic terms what the different parts of the Auto box do, and how they work.....

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by waders on Feb 17^th, 2005, 1:07pm

Gaz,

I think the point that is being made is, if your "specialist" has the box out and apart to change any part, your bill should be pretty similar to a full recon.

I think he's baffling you with bull.

A faulty #3 solenoid is the likely suspect, as you only have an O/D problem! The cluches and bands, if at fault would affect the box as a whole and your ATF would smell burnt.

A nice hours work for £300 to change a solenoid, if you can get it.

Find someone to do some OBD for you!!

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 17^th, 2005, 3:12pm

thanks waders,now i understand what your saying,a lot of work for around £300 i agree !!!! i see what your saying about the "bands" and that these are used for all the gear operations and not just 4th,would it be possible to see on the outside of the box if a new solenoid had been fitted ???cheers ..gaz

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by waders on Feb 17^th, 2005, 3:50pm

The solenoids are in a horizontal row down one side of the box, you would really need the car on a ramp.

8) ;D 8) ;D 8)

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 17^th, 2005, 6:55pm

hiya... the brake band is a semi circular band ..like a brake shoe in reverse for want of a better description..and it does what it says on the can .. it brakes a cone in the box which contains clutches .. my point was that while that deep in the box ..a specialist wouldn't advise only changing one band ..the job would
have nearly been done < in fact IS done if he has stripped it that far ... with a few more parts on the bill ...and without changing the rest while it's stripped you face the same costs all over again soon ??? .... STN

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 17^th, 2005, 8:42pm

thanks S.t.N I GET WHAT YOUR SAYING NOW,I DONT SUPPOSE I WILL EVER KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT STRIPPING THE BOX AND LOOKING MYSELF,OH WELL IF IT WORKS PERFECTLY FINE THEN I SUPPOSE AT £300 IVE NOT DONE TOO BAD,HAVE I??????THIS IS THE THING WITH RELYING ON SOMEONE ELSE FOR HONEST ADVICE AND HELP

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Grant on Feb 18^th, 2005, 12:00pm

Others seems to be being very charitable on here. I am more cynical and direct. It is 90% certain he is lying to you. I seriously doubt any self respecting 'specialist' would practically recon a box for £300. More like double that. He is just overcharging for the solenoid.

It's not the overcharging that annoys me most it's that I hate 'specialists' lying to make money. However I would love to be proved wrong because you've got yourself a bargain.

Tell him to give you a call while the box is off and stripped because you'd love to go and see inside to get an idea how it works, watch his face drop.

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 18^th, 2005, 4:28pm

FINAL UPDATE***FINAL UPDATE***
well fellas it seems what he said was 100 % correct,late yesterday afternoon i dropped in on sheffield gearboxes as i was "passing" perfect timing i might say,my box was in the process of reassemble and my car obviously about 15 foot in the air,the parts replaced were 1) o/d band 2)servo and 3) cannot read writing and cannot remember what is was called,(sorry ive slept since then)also lists the cleaning of valve body,reassemble and refit of the box,i have seen all the worn components and have seen nothing to suggest the solenoids have been replaced either one or all of them,the bill says repairs and parts £230.00 and labour £120.00,it drives perfectly but to be fair it did before,under hard acceleration i used to get a vibration which is no longer evident which i thought was a little wear in the prop, and the change from 3 - 4 can only be described like silk,also definately no "cattle grid syndrome"between 3-4,i am like anyone else,very sceptical when using any so called "specialists"but have to say i am very chuffed with the bill on this occasion,how many scorp owners can say that !!!! i did ask the question if anything else was worn and he said if it was then now was the time to replace anything worn....make your own minds up lads,,,just in case anyone is intersted up here in yorkshire and needs help with transmission,contact Tariq at
sheffield gearboxes,
unit 14 century street
sheffield
s9 5dx
tel 0114 2433416
thanx
gaz

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Dave on Feb 18^th, 2005, 4:29pm

Glad you have your Scorp back Gaz ;D

Cheers

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Just Call Me Captain on Feb 18^th, 2005, 4:33pm

I have read all of the threads - Nice to see a good final outcome

I seem to remember Vulcan having gearbox problems - maybe this guy and his prices are a good solution

Captain

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by Grant on Feb 18^th, 2005, 5:28pm

Once I've removed my foot from my mouth I shall congratulate you on finding an excellent contact :-[ Glad to hear all is now well.

Note to self ... Keep mouth shout and stop being so cynical about everything. :-X

Title: Re: anyone found my 4th gear????????
Post by gaz01gaz on Feb 18^th, 2005, 5:32pm

LOL ,nice one grant,lets just keep fingers crossed it all lasts,i will be out tonight around 3 am when i finnish work (taxi driver v*****ll as**a) going down the by passes flat out,surely this will test things :o