|
||
|
Title: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!!) Post by nevprice on Mar 16th, 2005, 10:03am Morning all!Havent been on the site for a long time,job change etc etc,and decided reluctantly to sell the Scorpio 24v.Put it through an MOT and it passed with flying colours!Had the car 18 months and it didnt miss a beat!Man comes to collect car and it wont start ??? :'(Turns over but wont fire.Trailered it to a specialist who put the diagnostics on and it showed a cam and crank sensor at fault.Replaced these and away it went ;DBought it back home phoned man and he comes to get it.I start car up and stone me it turns over and wont fire :'( :'(Back to specialist who charges battery as its gone flat through starting and away it goes again.He tries it about 20 times and road tests it,no problems and no faults found in the memory.Puts it down to the battery not fully charged(I put a new one on a month ago)No drain on battery and charging at 14v.Pick it up drive home and park up.Understanding man comes to fetch it again and it does the same thing :-[ :-[ Its going back today so they can have another look!!Anyone got any bright ideas :-/ I dont think it wants to go to a new home!! Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated ;D Regards Neville and poorly Scorpio. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:29pm PLEASE can anyone help :-[ :-[Scorpio is going back to garage tomorrow but I have checked and there is no spark.What could be causing the problem? Any tips I can give the garage to assist them.At this rate the recovery company will want more off me than the car is worth,let alone the bill from the garage for looking at it :'( :'( GIVE ME A CLUE PLEASE SOMEONE. Nev :-[ |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Snoopy on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:35pm CKP sensor ( crankcase position) could be at fault if there is no spark.. It is very difficult to diagnose something like this with out the benifit of hands on... Ask some of the proffessionals even they struggle.. It really is a process of elimination now .. but that is where I would start. Did they actuallt replace it or just clean it.... it does sound like a CKP fault.... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Mar 17th, 2005, 9:11pm Thanks Snoopy,they replaced the crank position sensor and also the cam sensor.At the beginning I cleaned the crank sensor but made no difference but the following morning went back to car and away it went! Seems a mystery to me :'( Thanks for the advice anyway Regards Neville |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Snoopy on Mar 17th, 2005, 10:21pm The only other thing you can do is go around the engine bay and check ALL the plugs and also make sure they are tight home in the eec under the glove box..... The other thing is check the main fuse links for contact.. If it start one day and not the other then it has to be a broken/loose conection so wher do you start.... ??? I really don't know |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Mar 17th, 2005, 10:26pm Thanks for the help Snoopy,watch this space and i'll give you an update tomorrow!cheers Nev.. ;D |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Badboytunes on Mar 18th, 2005, 8:18am Welcome back Nev ;) Hope you get it sorted soon Cheers Nick |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by scorpio_man on Mar 18th, 2005, 9:56am hi there what about the fuel cut off switch? i remember danny have a problem with his. only a thought. :-/ |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Highlander on Mar 18th, 2005, 11:59am Yep I had that once in a diesel sierra... just get it worked up to overtake..pull out... get halfway there and the engine dies!! makes for a really exciting drive! :) |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Mar 18th, 2005, 7:17pm Hi Nick and all,good to be back,even under annoying circumstances!Garage had car back and the engine turned over well but still did not fire.No fault codes were found so they put a Bosch battery on instead as they said that type of battery had a higher output and was the best they had! First turn of the key and away it went :o :o ;D.There keeping it over the weekend so they can try it on Monday but they recon the "new" battery I bought was possibly not up to the job!I had no problems with the Scorpio until 6 months ago when the original battery gave up.This is the 3rd battery i've had from the motorfactors as the first had a dud cell,second wouldnt charge up properly and the one they have just taken off,well I think it was a Friday afternoon one ??? Will report on Mon when they have tried it again to see if this is the conclusion to the saga!The new owner is going to join the site,I've sang the praises of it and the window stickers are front and back on the car so he'll know where to find you! I'll will be gutted to see it go as it is the best car i've ever had,but its going to a good home in Evesham(hopefully) THE MORAL OF THE STORY WILL HOPEFULLY BE,BUY PROPER PARTS AND DONT TRY AND CUT CORNERS(YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!) Speak soon Nev ;) |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:37pm Ahh my learned friends the saga continues :-/Car didnt start on monday :'(Took the spare key in to the garage and they tried it.Car started!Never used the spare as it was a bit difficult to use in the ignition.Disconnected the battery and tried the main key again and it fired up,but on the second attempt it didnt.tried procedure again and it worked first time but not after.Put the sticky key in ignition,pulled it out and used other key and it started again.Think the chip is playing up and not letting the code get through to the ECU.Any thoughts before I send it to FMD and get another programmed at great expense. All the best Nev and a receeding bank balance!! |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by SaveTheNight on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:40pm red key anywhere nev .. or are the ones you're using all black ?? ......STN |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:59pm Evening STN only 2 black keys im afraid!You keeping well?Regards Nev.. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by SaveTheNight on Mar 23rd, 2005, 11:10pm Hi nev ..fine here thanx mate and hope you are ok too .. regarding the keys it may be worth a call to one of the mobile key firms with an AD100 .. I think Snoopy recommends a good national one .. cheers ...STN |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Snoopy on Mar 24th, 2005, 8:04am Nev the place to look for local Local smith is here http://www.home-own.co.uk/ala/ Used my guy local to me great ! ;) |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Apr 1st, 2005, 10:59pm Quick update,it isnt a key problem,the so called "good one"played up the other day but on disconnecting the battery and then reconnecting the car starts straight away!!!!!Have grabbed the bull by the horns and sent it to Ford main dealer and they are having a look at it :'(seems like it is loosing memory somewhere and by taking the battery off it is "rebooting itself"and it is ok for seven to eight times and then it goes haywire!! I WONT BE BEATEN ON THIS ONE!!IT WILL GET SORTED IN THE END ;D ;D Nev....... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by craig on Apr 2nd, 2005, 5:54am good luck with it all nev... am i right in assuming that you have now "lost the sale" ? |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Badboytunes on Apr 2nd, 2005, 11:52am Good luck with the probs Nev ;) |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Apr 4th, 2005, 9:22pm Yes!Refunding money tomorrow :-[Car still at FMD and costs escalating I suppose(been away for the weekend) so hopefully an update tomorrow from them. Will keep you all posted!!Nev............. ;D |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on Apr 5th, 2005, 9:25pm ARGHHHH The ongoing saga >:(Dealers are 90% sure its the main ECU behind the glovebox.Approx £450 from Ford,so sending it to a specialist who will check it out and hopefully get to the bottom of it.He says a recon one is about £200 ish.Anyone had experiences of recon ECU's. Fingers crossed Nev ??? |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on May 14th, 2005, 10:20pm Hopefully the end of the saga(after about 2 months of grief!!)Sent the main ECU that is behined the glovebox to be bench tested and it proved to be OK ???Ford dealer said it could possibly be the "EDDIS" module under the bonnet(this supposedly controls the spark setup?)Unfortunately these cant be bench tested like the main ECU so I had to take a flyer and get my brave head on and have a purchase to the sum of £250 :'( :'( However I have had the car back for three weeks and sofar it hasnt missed a beat ;D Its a dream to drive even though the garage bills came to over £500 I think I might keep it for a bit and enjoy it!! Take care all ;)NEV............ |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by scorpio_man on May 15th, 2005, 6:52am hi there keep it! you know you want to! ;D |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Paul B on May 15th, 2005, 7:58am [] I loved your car when we saw it up at Derby last year. Its a minter! KEEP KEEP KEEP! :) |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by craig on May 15th, 2005, 8:30am [] at least you can still listen to the pink floyd cd's in comfort as well ;) ;) |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by nevprice on May 15th, 2005, 10:18pm Thanks for the messages of support :-*I now have a company car and a Diahatsu van and a Landrover series 2a that my dad bought new in '67 (when I was born,so thats a family heirloom)and the Scorpio.It seems a shame now its running fine to mothball it because I wont get the use out of it :'( :'( If anyones interested i'll consider offers over £1300. PM me and I will put all the info on the site if anyones up for it.. Regards Nev.................... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Waglet on Feb 27th, 2009, 11:41am This 'saga' is the same symptons I have. (Mine is still a non starter, turns over a treat!) Think I'll try an EDIS unit and see what happens. (Sorry to drag up an old 'topic). SHAUN :- any chance of a price on the EDIS from your 'breaker'? |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by rich1 on Feb 27th, 2009, 3:46pm "christine" springs to mind ;D |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Waglet on Feb 27th, 2009, 6:14pm Just a thought (sorry to go on and monopalise the site) would a faulty EDIS unit cause the fuel pump to kick in and hence fail to start? |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Feb 27th, 2009, 8:11pm Hi, got about 150k miles with my scorpio, that got all the neccessary service before and got basically no problems so far. Now, starting this winter season - engine started to run poorly, and suddenly stopped running, got to be towed. Since then, there was no way to start it again - well, actually it did, just a few times, but only after few days with disconnected battery and even then the engine was running only for a very short period of time (few minutes and the even less). I'm an electrical engineer, so I decided to try to repair it by myself. I've prepared following text as it might help the others, experiencing similliar problems (sorry for my not that great english, thank you). As far as I've been searching the forum, I found some similiar cases, but with no solutions or with just some misleading answers as far. Hope this will help all the other scorpio owners and I also hope that someone will correct me, if I missed something or etc. First diagnose - no fuel or no spark. I've changed the spark plugs and both coil packs. Checked the wiring (fuel shut off loom = seems bad, but measures all ok, checked even with HV supply). Still no difference, engine started for a while, then stalled. I ran an OBD2 test, using VE TriCom lead. The LTFE was minus few percent, so I've checked the fuel pump (running every time, stopped after a while, thats ok), impact switch, and finally changed the whole fuel regulator assembly (assuming the engine might be flooding, but I have no pressure gauge to measure the real fuel rail pressure). Still no difference. So nope, fuel it is not. Anyway, EEC is shutting down the injectors if it doesn't get PIP signal for some time. That is why you can't smell unburnt fuel in your's car exhaust, when you got no spark. Next steps: - checked CMP, and it is OK, impedance ok, and generating some signal (used scope). Then I've checked CKP, impedance is about 390ohms (got spare one from DOHC8V and this one is at about 240ohms), checked the wiring to EDIS, all ok. Put scope on that (CKP+/CKP-), cranked, nice signal visible, with missing tooth recognizeable. Amplitude was quite higher than 1.4V, but I've been measuring the CKP without any load (disconnected). Next step - checked EDIS output, PIP signal. Shoud be 12V when idle, and going to GND synchronized with CKP signal. Cranked - and it steady all the time on 12V, no change. So I suppose, a) the EDIS is destroyed or b) problem with CKP that is erratic (eg. failing sensor, works some time and then not, well, I'm going to swap it anyway). Interesting is, that if, somehow, the engine starts (even for a while), there are clearly visible faults in PIP signal (missing falling edges to GND) and so then there is no spark and EEC is not firing injectors also. I'm going to change the EDIS, code 91AB-12K072-AA, and will post the result. I found out, that it might be important to get EDIS4 module with the same whole code. I suppose that modules with different pre or postfixes (89, AA,AC,...) will probably have some difference in wiring of the tacho signal output. PS It might be also worth to put a signal generator instead of CKP and then check the PIP and IDM signal, this will definitelly say if EDIS is failed or not, if I get some spare time I will do that too. -edit- According to specs, when the engine is stopped, but the key is turned on (KOEOff), the EDIS module emits a 64us pulse every 262.144ms to indicate proper operation (IDM wire). This might be worth checking! EDIS is a very heavy duty part, and I really wonder how it could break... I've made some description of EDIS4, so if anyone is interested, go to http://sc.an-d.cz I might prepare some more technical texts etc. if anyone is interested, leave me a note. some other interesting notice is, that there are NO recorded obd2 trouble codes (even extended) so far. If I simulate them, they will pop up, but that is just if I manually disconnect something or so. Normally, I've got only the "NO CODES" message, or "OBD NOT DONE YET" message. Also interesting is, that if I run the keyon-engineoff test, then the extended field named DTCCOUNT (I'm not sure about the exact name now) shows number 3 (assuming there should be 3 codes stored, but I never got the VE to read them out). When KAM is clean, it shows 0, even if after cranking the engine. ok, one question - did anyone solved or experienced the same problem? I will post my findings when I get new EDIS, but in the mean time... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Feb 27th, 2009, 10:39pm Suggestion to pull the startinhibitor relay in the Central Junction Box and bridge/jumper contacts 30 and 87. 85 & 86 are the coil's. If PATS is not reading key-ID properly the EEC-V will not activate the relay inhibiting ignition. Worth the try. Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Feb 27th, 2009, 10:56pm CKP is certainly suspect reading all this. It is an active sensor i.e. Hall Generator and is known to fail of its onwn will. Also after carwash. Had an earlier Scorpio in a Ford shop running and stopping for 3 weeks. Drove the techies mad. > CKP. Lowcost easy replacement. High ROI! Good luck, Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Feb 28th, 2009, 10:42am CKP on DOHC engines is just an ordinary coil, no active electronics inside. And I assume the CKP sensor on Coss will be the same. Just put an osciloscope on that and you will see. Some people say, that CKP works or does not at all. But I guess this might also be not that true, based on my experience with ABS sensors (build with definitelly the same technology, just diferent shape). The worst for all those kinds of sensors are shock vibrations. That happens for ABS sensors very often, if mechanic helps himself with hammer when working on around the wheel, for example. But I still guess it is EDIS module in your (and also in my actual) case. As I wrote yesterday, I'm going to change mine and then I will refer on my progress. You can get new CKP from Poland for 75 zlotych (eg. almost for free), or they have lots of EDIS (mostly EDIS4) on Allegro (that is Polish ebay). I'm not from Poland but those guys don't mind to send it to Europe anyway. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Feb 28th, 2009, 3:19pm Right on ad**n - the VSS uses Hall generator signalshaper. Anyway, since I had my CKP replaced the idiotic spurious engine cut-outs have totally vanished and I trust myself again to visit the carwash ;D Ray PS This website replaces the above poster's name with *** thinking I am swearing..! |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Feb 28th, 2009, 4:39pm -off topic- Hey Cosray, actually, I've been diging through some very old stuff and guess what - there were some sensors like CKPs, build into the distributor body (= those old scorpios '80 ~ '90) and those CKPs were built using Hall technology (so there were no CKP at crankshaft, but mounted on distributor). So even you were right :D yeah, the worst thing is to get towed, as happend to me twice at the same place (unbeliveable) about 4 hours of driving away from my home. And all it needed was just new CKP and EDIS, a few minutes job... grrr... But I need to be sure, that the problem actually is those things, to feel safe going far away - there is no worse feeling there if the car fails somewhere in the middle of nowhere. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Feb 28th, 2009, 5:49pm on 02/28/09 at 16:39:48, ad**n wrote:
.... with the wife and mother-in-law and a screaming brat on board... going to a funeral... :-[ So always have a new CKP at hand for the AA guy to replace! ;D Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 1st, 2009, 5:46pm uhm, agree, that is driving one mad... anyway I've got a few used CKPs today, measured them (400 ohms all ok) and checked them (they generate power if you move some metal in front of the sensor). They all look ok. I've tried to replace my original CKP (which is also ok, but just to be sure) with them and to no succes - engine did not started (cranked, but there were no signal at PIP line => edis4 is bad). So I've got one used edis4 from some breaker car, and voila, car started immediately (!) and ran for couple tenths of seconds, but then stalled! If I crank it again, the PIP is gone (constant +12V). The PIP signal started missing impulses when the engine was running and after a while it gone flat (and engine stalled). There is definitelly a problem with EDIS4 (all other systems are ok, carefully checked already). So I think> a) the second edis4 was broken like mine is (what a coincidence) or b) there is something inside the car there, that likes to kill the edis4 units. I've measured the wirings etc. all seems ok. what do you guys think? Am I right? Did anybody had similiar situation? I'm going to get another EDIS4 and try it out. Will post the result. PS (edited). I've found an 64usec impulse on IDM wire when ignition is on and the engine is not running (on all edis4 units I tried, even those broken). It is showing itself periodically, as it should, also for the broken edis4 modules, the time between two consecutive impulses is 262 msec (ford says 262 = edis4 is ok (internal diagnostics), so I'm confused). |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 2nd, 2009, 10:01am Hi Adam, what model/year/month/auto/manual Scorpio are you talking? Can't find your info. Googled p/n 91AB-12K072-AA seems to point to Fiesta's rather than Scorpio. Ingnitionwise there are differences. Could there be a confusion? Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Tompion on Mar 2nd, 2009, 11:01am He posted more details here: http://sc.an-d.cz/ |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 2nd, 2009, 11:25am ... so a Ford Scorpio 1995 DOHC16 2.0 Leaves the question of the correct p/n for the EDIS. Should that really be a p/n beginning with 91/ ? Well Ad**n should know. Curious, Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 2nd, 2009, 1:53pm Sorry for not leaving my cars initials. Yes it is DOHC16 2.0 manual. I've checked one other scorpio of some guy and the code in his car is 91-12K072-AA (as in mine). I guess the fiesta etc. will have 89 prefix,and more to that, the postfix will be diferent for other cars (AB, AC, ...) but my scorpio and the other guys scorpio (with the same engine) have the 91 code. Otherwise, the only difference, I guess, will be in tach signal generation. The 91 have internal connection of IDM pin to TACH (11) pin. I'm currently drawing a whole internal schematics of my EDIS4, and I will post it soon. And I'm also building a testbench for whole ignition circuit, so I can test the sensor and edis module out of car - hope to get it ready next week, will post some more info + photos. and thank for continuos flow of you suggestions, that does cheer one up. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 2nd, 2009, 2:34pm ok, I guess I found the difference between 89 and 91 prefix as from: http://www.omitec.com/en/support/common-faults/engine-management-systems/ford/ " Lower battery voltage and greater current draw can create an interference condition that causes the EDIS module to trigger too early. The symptom is very similar to the type of slow cranking experienced with 'advanced ignition timing'. The result is a poor or non-starting engine. A revised EDIS module was fitted in production in 1992 and is available as a service replacement. " That might be it, so I guess if the 91 module gets swapped with 89 it will work... probably. and I also have one more question: following the public available schematics, the PIP signal is wired directly from EDIS to EECV. But there is also a non-public PATS schematics, and my question is (if anyone saw it), is there any connection for PIP (and or SAW) signal from-to PATS module? I'm going the put a completly new wire directly from EDIS to EECV, ignoring the original one from wiring loom. ... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 2nd, 2009, 2:56pm Omitec hints seem to refers to EEC-IV, which is/was only on the DOHC 8, I think. Of course their experience might be valuable in your case. See: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/star.htm Worth checking:
PATS circuitry I have never found anymore; Ford's rather secretive about that, not surprisingly. Do you have any unsual RED LED indications? See table in http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm HTH, Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 2nd, 2009, 4:47pm Ray, seems like you are the only interested :) engine run relay.. hmm... that may be worth trying, sure ! so far, I've connected the scope to +12V pin at edis module, and it shows steady flat 12V (goes down a volt or two when cranking). But so far, EDIS should generate PIP with supply voltage as of 7V (and higher) - but I'm not sure if it does fire when the voltage is that low. Anyway, in my case, I never get less then 10V at EDIS supply pin under any circumst (only when cranking). But to be honest, I did just measured +12V at coils once, and checked the wiring for continuity. About that cap - I have not found any. It is just not physically present... It should be connected between +12V rail and ground, but close to coils, to suppress the inductance of wiring, so the EMP is not extended widely, thus minimal RF interference is achieved. If it goes bad, it might go open circuit, with no influence on the whole thing, or it might go short circuit,and then there would be no +12V at coils (but also burned fuse). I will check it anyway, tomorrow. ... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 2nd, 2009, 5:07pm Obviously there is an underlimit at which any circuit and EDIs does not function nor fire the coils. So, to eliminate all variables: have a solid and low-impedance 12V available. Bridge the Engine Run Relay Bridge the Fuel Pump Relay Bridge anything else suspect All you need mostly is a thin wire from a cable acting as a jumper, just insert that in the relevant contactsocket and replug the relay. The cap is a necessity, nothing to do with EMP. In every moped ignition, airplane magneto etc., you need a cap to have the L/C combo 'ringing'. Long ago it also used to extinguish the contactspark and thereby reducing RF interference, if that's what you mean. It's supposed to sit near the front of the engine, below the rim of this shot: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/top%203.jpg If you mail me your emailaddress asap I will send you a drawing. BTW, this makes interesting reading for your case as well: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm HTH, Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 2nd, 2009, 7:55pm Hi, I don't have the cap there. Suprisingly, I was driving it for sooooo long with no problem, it started just now (january). -some offtopic gibber- Actually, as you say so, the cap is necessary for old-styled ignition, eg. the "hammer" ignition with no electronic control. Then yes, it was absolutly a must, because it really "balanced" the coil so there were no material transfer between the hammer contact pads. If you won't have it there or if it would have wrong capacity, then the hammer contact will burn (metal will transfer from one side to the other). Now, I guess, that this cap is there just for cutting down the radio interference, caused be the current spikes over long wires, feeding the coil primary winding. The current flow is controlled by EDIS completly, so basicly there is no need for cap there. See - the cap in scorpio is connected between +12V line and ground. But the cap in hammer ignitions is connected parallel to the switch = on the other side of coil primary winding. So now the cap is used only as a storage of energy supplying the coils, thus there wont be any big current spikes over the whole wiring back to the battery, but just only far as between the coil and cap. Oh well, I might be wrong, because this is based all just my thoughts, just trying to justify the cap presence or not-presence, and if it will make a difference. Hope I will found some original scorpio capacitor somewhere and then test it. --- Definitelly, what am I going to do> follow your advice about the good 12V and ground, bring it there using separate wires. then I'm going to completly rewire the whole edis system wiring. One step after the other so I will find the reason for all this. There is no way not to know now, whatever the price is. and also, as I wrote, I'm just now building a testbench for whole edis system, just got the 36-1 wheel from another dismantled engine. Hope to have it all ready in couple a days. then I will definitelly be able to tell, if the problem is edis or whatever else. personally, I suspect the wiring, even if I check it all carefully, I just don't trust it... -edit- oh about the PATS - I got one black (ordinary) key and one red (master) key. With both keys, the engine cranks. Also for both keys, I get 4 sec of red LED light (= PATS OK). But still, what if some circuity inside PATS module goes wrong, f.ex. shorting out PIP to 12V (for example !) even if PATS actually don't wont to do it... just wondering. That is why I'm going to rewire it. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 2nd, 2009, 9:50pm Noticed your emailaddress now; will send you some pics of the cap's location. With this type of intermittent breakdown there's only 3 ways of dealing with it: eliminate all potential causes, simplify the necessary circuits and Test, test, test. HTH, Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 3rd, 2009, 4:49pm Hi, you are definitelly right, I should rebuild the whole circuit = totaly new wiring. so, I have finally built a whole copy of EDIS4 system, as a test bench (will post pictures on my webpage soon, max. on tomorrow). I'm using an electric motor driving the 36-1 wheel (at ~1600rpm), then I got CKP mounted so I can move it closer and further, and the EDIS4 module hook up to 12V and oscilloscope. Tomorrow I will hook up both coils and sparkplugs also, just for curiosity. results> all CKPs I have work perfectly, nice 20Vpp output, perfect sine shape with missing tooth recogniseable. Both EDIS units I currently have - both of them are working perfectly, generating PIP signal. so I went and stick the EDIS module back into my car, and off it went - started and run, BUT JUST FOR 30 SECONDS !!! then stalled. I can still crank it nicely, but not start. Battery is fully charged. At least I know that EDIS might not be the cause. Back to the wiring. PS. relays are probably ok, I had most of them dismantled today and electrically checked. If I dismatle the green/violet relay, there is a PCB with two small relays on it. If I manually activate the top one, the other one goes on also (for a while, it is driving the fuel pump, and the fuel presure in fuel rail goes to 270kPa). As long as I manually activate that (lower one) fuel pump relay, the fuel pump is pumping and there is a nice pressure in fuel rail. Also noticed another thing - when the engine is not running and ignition is ON, if I manually short the PIP line to GND, just for a slightest while or even longer (or f.ex. disconnect the connector from EDIS and put it back on) , the EEC reacts (falling edge of PIP I guess) and runs the fuel pump for a second or two. Can do this "trick" any number of times as I want. It does work even if I can not start the engine (eg. my actual situation). That means, that PIP wire to EEC simply must be OK, it will not do this anyway. This is all so confusing... |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 3rd, 2009, 8:03pm finally, check out the http://sc.an-d.cz I posted more quite usefull pics I've made and some usefull oscilograms. The whole EDIS4 works flawlessly when it is operating as standalone system outside my car. Hopefully tomorrow I will get to rebuilding my cars wiring. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 3rd, 2009, 8:32pm Adam, excellent setup, congrats, very thorough approach. You´ve certainly gone a long way. So, it works in the lab but it fails in the car. What is different in the car environment from the lab? Ah, there's many upsetting components available and active. The 30 secs could be a clue. On the lab table you do not turn the ignitionkey so, in the car, what gets activated by the ignitionkey that kills the functionality after 30 secs? Logic errors. The EEC V. PATS. The EEC, since on the lab table it is not involved, in the car apparently it decides to stop your efforts after 30 secs. Either it misses a signal OR finds a signal not synced or OFF the programmed range OR incompatible OR not understandable. However, in that case it it should apply LOS Limited Operation Strategy. NOT stop. Clearly it does not enter LOS but kills functionality. What element of functionality could it cause to kill operation. When the EEC kills the operation, exactly what voltage or signal goes missing at what point of the circuit. It must be a combination of real world wrong signals e.g wrongly attached spark cables, a temperature sensor or other element generating a fatal signal for the EEC. Is the CPS rotten. Does it not produce the rationality signal for cylinder 1 the EEC expects. The Engine Run Relay, try and bridge contacts 30/87. What about your Ground distribution, is it OK=or does it produce dirty loopcurrents. Can spark cables coils etc. be garbled up so as to give the EEC a wrong and fatal picture, which it then wants to end. Thinking along those lines of logic, could you in the car induce the LOS for the EEC. Just a thought of logic. Curious, puzzled, Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 4th, 2009, 7:32am yes yes will do that are those ideas I need ! |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 4th, 2009, 4:45pm * SOLVED * engine is running again, smooth and fine I've recorded all data using VE, so I will post the VE log files to my temporary web site. all stuff chronologically: * engine is not starting, wtf?, being towed, insurance company paid for it. * next day it started and went OK for about 500 km * after that - again - no started, being towed again, payed by myself, grrr * trying to figure out the problem - found that PIP signal is going missing * checked the fuel-cutoff loom, it is ok. * chekced some other wires, power source, all relays... all ok. * getting another EDIS4 and CKP from brake car, still no joy * building whole EDIS4 system as a testbench, all components I have seem to be all OK * putting EDIS4 back to the car, it started and went for about 30 sec, then stalled, still thinking about PATS or etc. * started to change all wires involved with EDIS4 * first try : wire from pin12 to coil - started but stalled, no more starts. * second try: wire from pin 10 to another coil and a whole new ground wire to EDIS4 - started and still running, yeah !!! so the conclusion is: - the wiring (the loom between EEC, EDIS and engine connector) is the probably reason for all this - interesting is, that if you measure impedance of this wiring loom, it is all perfectly OK, not short circuits between wires, no shorts to ground etc. It definitelly needs a high voltage wire (insulation resistance) tester, as there is no way to find that problem out with a ordinary multimeter. Stil have to rewire the rest, just to be sure. The ground wire was not necessary, I guess it was only necessary to rewire both wires for the coils. I'm not going to even imagine what mess could any short circuit between those two wires and the rest in the loom do. Imagine the current spikes etc... eeeee PS. every other sensor and actuator in the car (except for wiring) is OK, emissions mith be also ok... so: I guess any of scorpio owners could have (one day) exactly the same situation as I did, and it is not that easy to find out, and component swapping does NOT help at all. PS. there is no way how to test EDIS system outside the car, if you do not have 36-1 rotating wheel. If you just use piece of metal and move it in front of CKP, the EDIS will start to ignore the impulses very very soon (as it is not consistent as 36-1 wheel input). So if you want to test EDIS, you have to get a 36-1 (rotating). No other way. hope that helps, I have spent so much time with this, argh. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 4th, 2009, 6:26pm This is good news -- as I spent some time on it too! Glad it worked for you. Enjoy your car & toy. It's for the benefit of all of us and shortens the learning curve on the behaviour of this wonderful car... even after all these years... Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by adamn on Mar 5th, 2009, 4:32pm Hi, second day of driving, no problems at all, even in rain. I have got some codes about lack of lambda switching, but it cleared itself very soon (hmm, wiring again, grr) and now I'm DTC clear! hope it will last. I'm going to rewire all wires I will find, soon, to be safe, just as I will get into the correct mood. Working as an R&D engineer in radiocommunications, what I get all day is all those 0402 SMD critters, haha, so the car is definitelly a nice pleasant change, not the toy but sometimes mighte be ;) . Estimated repair cost for my problem (if including only the really necessary items that were needed to get it running) = about a few Pounds (translated to your currency ;D .). Good new wires, some clips, shrink-wrap insulation, a little of solder tin, ... The worst part is that I was not able to track the bad wiring, using just a simple multimeter. I wrote it already, the problems will show up only when there is enough current flowing or with high voltage on it. yes, yes, it is all about knowing what and where, and that comes on expensive (or not, with all the help here, so hurray to scorpio forum!). Hopefully someone will use some informations from this thread to help himself. |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Mar 5th, 2009, 6:21pm Ahhhh yes Adam N, this is the problem. The works' never done (Matthew & Son). Your Scorpio 5/95, was wired with Arnitel wirecoating; later (96) to be changed for safer Raychem coating. This means you will be smitten with spurious cabletrouble. Strands leaking within wires within cables. No end to it. ::) Glad you've solved it for now and have your toy running. ;D Ray PS A Scorpio friend made me aware of the so called S -connections. These are splices so a type of clamps where during production of the loom cables are joined by pressure. They may start to sputter and protest after10 years of service under high current. Look for S34 (coils & capacitor), S59, S60 (GND distribution!) S32 (3 sensors!) S31 (InJectors! and others in the . pdf I sent you. Ray |
||
|
Title: Re: NON STARTER (DONT THINK IT WANTS TO LEAVE ME!! Post by szinyei on Dec 31st, 2023, 4:28pm Dear all, 2023: I can confirm all this. I have just connected the 4 EDIS wires to the ECU (1,2,3,4 to 23, 48, 49, 50) - then it started at all but for a restart, the battery had to be disconnected. Then the two (as above, 10 and 12) directly to the coils (white blue, white green). Beforehand the crankshaft position sensor was already connected /two years ago/ directly to the EDIS (red, brown, etc. high current), two wires - at that time the car could be started at all with this. Now it runs smoothly. (ABS is on - but I will directly connect the LED to the ABS module…ASR is also on, although the car has no ASR…) Best wishes, Csaba |
||
|
Ford Scorpio Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1! YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved. |