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        General >> Problems >> Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
        
(Message started by: Baz on Jun 7^th, 2005, 7:12pm)

Title: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 7^th, 2005, 7:12pm

I changed the front disks on my 1998 Cossie when I bought it back in September as my mechanic told me they were a bit thin. We put powertrain disks on and all was well. After a few months, I started to get a judder under braking and he reckoned they could be a faulty set so they were changed under warranty. After another few months, the same happened again so I went and bought a set of genuine Ford ones (off the shelf.....you could have knocked me down with a feather!!)

Now these have started to judder and I am at a loss as to what is causing this. I have had the calipers checked and they are fine. Anyone have any more ideas?

Thanks

Baz

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Lee on Jun 7^th, 2005, 7:20pm

are you a heavy braker if so would vented ones be any better ??
Lee

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 7^th, 2005, 8:44pm

Not really Lee, I put 3 times the mileage on my last 1998 Cossie and only changed those disks once when I first got it. I am at a loss and I want to sort it before I go away

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 7^th, 2005, 9:06pm

hi barry

when you stop, do you hold the brakes on tight? what i do is stop an extra couple of feet away, then roll forward a wee bit. never had a problem with new ford discs. that's about 27k miles (2 years). i take it you cleaned the hubs before fitting the new discs?

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by OddJob on Jun 7^th, 2005, 9:36pm

Hi Baz :)
Only once have I had problem with juddering brakes and that was on my Granada. After 130K on it's original disks I changed them for non-geniuine ones and within months had to change them again for genuine due to warping. Ford disks I have found, unless abused, fairly bullet proof.
With this in mind have you thought of testing the ABS sensors as one of these may have developed a fault under certain load conditions and fooling the car's brain.

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/abssystem.htm

I mention this as my brother-in-law has had a similiar problem recently with his Laguna and Renault diagnosed this to be the problem rather than the disks.

Hope this helps ;)

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by ren on Jun 7^th, 2005, 10:43pm

Baz
Is the Scorpio brake manual wrong then
cus it states vented discs front and rear
for the 24v or is it your choice to have solids fitted

Ren

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 7^th, 2005, 11:02pm

They are vented Ren, they are the genuine Ford Cossie disks

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by ren on Jun 7^th, 2005, 11:40pm

Baz

Sorry it was your reply to Lee
I read It as you had fitted solids
as Lee had suggested useing vented discs

Ren

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by nodge on Jun 7^th, 2005, 11:51pm

Might be worth checking for play at the ball joints Baz. I had really bad judder (felt as a wobble through the steering wheel) and I had new ball joints fitted and there is now only a slight trace of it. I think the discs are probably slightly warped and so I will get round to replacing them but I was amazed at the difference the new ball joints (complete with arms and bushes) made.

Nodge

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 8^th, 2005, 12:14am

Cheers Nodge. I'll get my man to check tomorrow!!

Baz

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Eddie on Jun 8^th, 2005, 4:04am

You can check the disks by jacking,remove the wheel and put on a wheel nut and thick washer(s) to clamp the disk up then rotate (the disk!) and look for/measure the run out.
If all ok then look to the suspension parts,bushes,ball joints etc.
Wear in these parts cause juddering as braking takes up the slack then releases it again when the disc starts moving through the pads,slack is released and so on.
Its not until new pads/discs bed in that the brakes start working effectively,its at this point the juddering starts.
Is the car on its original front wishbones???

eddie

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by mr._floppy on Jun 8^th, 2005, 11:22am

Is the judder predominately through the steering wheel ?

I know it sounds daft but what about the rear discs ?

they wear out too.

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 8^th, 2005, 8:18pm

Mr F, the rear pads were only changed last week. It is through the steering wheel and does feel like disks again. But I have to find out what is causing it

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Snoopy on Jun 9^th, 2005, 7:13am

Have you changed the pads every time you change the discs?

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 9^th, 2005, 8:37am

Not the first time but we did the second time Dave

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Snoopy on Jun 9^th, 2005, 10:05am

OK have read of this and the associated pages .... May just throw some light on the problem, but it may just be THIS (http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~jbarber/animation.html)

Also Have a read of THIS (http://home.planet.nl/~annev040/brakes.html)

and some of the associated pages.....

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Geoff_W on Jun 9^th, 2005, 11:14am

My ongoing judder problem turned out to be bushes after four sets of disks in 30k miles no problems since. I seem to remember that Dave or Bill pointed it out as a check worth doing but that strand was back in 2003.

Can't be more precise as I have slept a couple of times since then. ;)

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by dart on Jun 10^th, 2005, 9:30pm

Some good info Eric R once told me! and it saves him writting it all out again ;D.
"I'd be a little cautious about after-market brake disks and pads. The ABS system module has the specs of the standard brake disks and pads built into its program, so that it can keep each wheel at the maximum retardation rate by varying the brake pressure applied. If you fit other types of brake disks and pads you may cause over-braking - this will cause ABS confusion and your braking distance may actually increase ... so bear that in mind.

The standard Ford disks should give no trouble. They are vented, of very good quality and well machined and they match the exact specifications of the original part. If you 'season' them properly when they are new and bear a couple of points in mind when you are driving they should last 60 or 70K miles with no problems at all - mine have.

The brake disk care points are:
1. When first fitted and or/with new pads avoid heavy braking for at least 100 miles.
2. You may consider 'conditioning' the new disks after the first 100 miles. On a road where it is safe to do so brake down from 70 to 40 gently at first and then again with gradually firmer pressure and end with the brakes off while accelerating smoothly again. This will heat up the disks and allow them to cool evenly, relieving any internal stresses built up by manufacture or fitting.
3. After any emergency braking to a standstill the brake disks will probably be almost white hot - as soon as possible take your foot off the brake and hold the car on the handbrake (or better still in P for autos). This removes the brake pads from the disks and allows the disk to cool more evenly without hot or cold spots.
4. If after emergency braking the brakes 'judder', go through the conditioning routine again (as at 2) because this may relieve the heat-stresses in the disks."

« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2005, 1:32pm by Eric_R »

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by WAYNE on Jun 14^th, 2005, 6:14pm

Hi all
Seem to have the same problem as Baz.
1. Changed the front link rods in June 2004, no juddering
2. Changed front and rear disks and pads in August 2004, no juddering
3. Slight juddering started in March 2005
4. Changed front disks with old ones in May 2005, still juddering
5. Changed both wishbones and bushes and put new disks back on in June 2005, better but slight juddering still.

Does anyone know why this is happening? I am running out of parts to change!
Could this be the spindle rods/track rod ends to the rack or do disks require changing again?
Regards
Wayne

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by David_South_West on Jun 14^th, 2005, 6:52pm

Since you have tried just about every thing else could it be a tyre problem.my father had a volvo estate with similar problems..found two flat spots on the tyres. At speed didn't notice any problems but when braking there was a noticable judder.
Can you feel judder through pedal..could be abs playing up . Could be on just one front wheel .try cleaning sensors.

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by WAYNE on Jun 15^th, 2005, 6:39pm

Hi David
I have 4 Pirelli p6000 tyres which are in good condition and about two years old. I might try swapping the front wheels and tyres with the rear ones and see what happens.
The abs light goes out once the car is started and has never come back on whilst driving, but I think I will give the sensors a clean. Any ideas on how to do this? Also, is there a test to see if the abs is working correctly?
Regards
Wayne

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by David_South_West on Jun 15^th, 2005, 7:37pm

Try here
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/brakerepairs.htm

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by dart on Jun 15^th, 2005, 9:39pm

You can actually put this right! Had the same problem for ages even with new Ford discs! Follow the info of my last post on this page that Eric R gave me.it does work!
Let's face it it is the discs warping and Erics answer does work,I know I've tryed,My brake judder has stopped...with the same discs that where juddering like buggas last month! ;)
Oh, and don't use silicon based tyre black! it may look nice but if it gets on yer discs it makes the outer face slippyer than the inner...uneven heat...disc warp!
Frictionally-excited Thermoelastic Instability (TEI).
Yes.... that old chestnut Snoops ;D ;D

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 7:51am

OK,

Today, the car is going in for new bits as follows:

Disks (4th set)
Pads
wishbone bushes
antiroll bar bushes

Hopefully that will cure it. If it doesn't the only thing left are the hubs!!

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by macw on Jun 25^th, 2005, 10:20pm

1) I had some judder in my braking and after a new rack and ball joints (due to power steering problems) it went totally away.
2) I also had excessive pad wear on the rears that appeared to be due to the hub bearings starting to fail.

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 26^th, 2005, 10:22am

OK,

all parts now changed. New wishbone bushes (x4)
New disks, pads and anti-roll bar bushes. Also a front brake pipe had gotten chaffed at some stage so that was changed as well. Total cost for parts, about £120.00 and £65.00 labour (Done through the guy who supplies my vans!)

All ready for France on Monday now

Baz

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Lee on Jun 26^th, 2005, 1:10pm

hope it's sorted have a nice holiday
Lee

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by OddJob on Jun 26^th, 2005, 3:50pm

on 06/26/05 at 13:10:35, Lee wrote:

hope it's sorted have a nice holiday

[]
Headlight conversion sorted now ???
Loaded on board the compulsory items such as the likes of Warning Triangle, First Aid Box, Fire Extinguisher, Spare Bulb Kit etc. needed over there. ???

Drive carefully and don't forget the suncream and antacids and yes of course most importantly your camera. 8)

Take care and hope you all have a great time ;)
Mike

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by Baz on Jun 26^th, 2005, 9:16pm

everything is in place thanks Mike including the triangle! Other important items include thomas tank DVDs and wireless headphones!!

I am going to do a Scorpio on tour feature while I'm away to make use of my 3g laptiop card. Pictures from various places around France uploaded each night!!

Baz

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by OddJob on Jun 26^th, 2005, 11:44pm

COOOOOL 8) Looking forward to that ;)

Title: Re: Ongoing Problem with front brake judder
Post by WAYNE on Jun 27^th, 2005, 7:53pm

Hi All
Juddering has now stopped.
Decided to put the old rear disks back on (ford ones) and guess what, the juddering stopped.Now in the middle of trying to exchange (cheap disks £148 for front+rear) for ford disks.Just goes to prove that it is worth spending a few extra quid on ford ones to save all this messing about.Will let you now how i get on.
Regards
wayne