Ford Scorpio Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Ford Scorpio Forum
        (https://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl)
      

        General >> Problems >> Bloody thing
        
(Message started by: gadgetmandb on Aug 29^th, 2005, 1:11pm)

Title: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Aug 29^th, 2005, 1:11pm

Just spent £1500 quid on a complete engine re build only for it to die at the toll booths on the M6 toll road going south on the way home from Scotland. I feel completely depressed about the whole thing.
Stopped at te toll booth and started to pay(the extotionate) £6.00 when it started to boil over. went through the toll with it starting to rattle and stopped on the hard shoulder. tried to restart it and there is completely no compression at all. spins over but fails to start.(keyboard at this moment is getting wet due to my tears) I am really fed up with the hole thing and wish I had never bought one right now......
Anybody any ideas.. Please. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by SaveTheNight on Aug 29^th, 2005, 1:41pm

sorry to hear that gadget ... why do you say no compression ? ..is it because of the speed it turns over at ? .. sounds serious of course ..how long had it been hot ? ..maybe a chain ? ..does it even attempt to fire ? ..
lets hope we can all help.. and that it isn't terminal .... regards ... STN

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by mr._floppy on Aug 29^th, 2005, 2:02pm

Wow, bad luck, it's extra galling after spending that amount of hard earned moolah on a engine rebuild . Get yourself round to the cowboy who did it ( unless you did it yourself ! ) .

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Aug 29^th, 2005, 4:43pm

spins over but no sound of any resistance whilst turning.
Unaware of it being hot until it boiled at the toll gates where i immeadiatley pulled over and switched off.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by SaveTheNight on Aug 29^th, 2005, 5:39pm

does sound as if it's dumped a chain gadget ..are you back home or not ? .. needs a compression check to make sure .. hang on ..oops which model is it ?

I remember you talking of oil pressure relief valves but not an engine re-build ? .......STN

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Aug 30^th, 2005, 9:11am

Back home now, in Very sunny Dagenham.. Yes you are right It did have to have the oil preasure relief valve replaced, apparently there are 2 and only 1 was done as it wa broken. Last time this happened the head was skimmned and new head gasket was fitted. it was still bad so the engine was re built. I am wondering because of the re build and the head skimming were the presures of all the new components working the cause of maybe the head cracking, and not the head gasket failing. aka it now maybe needs a new head.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by DJWerkz on Aug 30^th, 2005, 2:11pm

Hi there,
I came across a company called Scholar Engines who say they have plenty of experience with the Cosworth heads (if that's what you are running). I have a spare set of heads which I am going to send to them for test/analysis.

Here is their email address: scholar-engines@supanet.com

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Aug 30^th, 2005, 3:07pm

cheers mate,,,,, unfortunatley I have a 16v scorpio ultima. 2.3 saloon. pretty sure the heads are different , sorry for the sarcasim, really fed up with the car at the mo.. I am really gratefull for the suggestion though.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by Dave on Aug 30^th, 2005, 3:48pm

Bad luck mate :(

My first port of call would be the company that rebuilt the engine for you. They may have done everything correctly and been spot on, but you need to let them have a look first IMHO, just in case. Presumably you got a warranty on the rebuild in terms on x months/x miles?

Good luck with it, don't give up! ;)

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by DJWerkz on Aug 30^th, 2005, 4:55pm

Yes, if this eventually has to go through the legal channels because you suspect that the garage did mess something up (as was the case with my car), one thing both Trading Standards and the Courts will look for is that you gave the garage every opportunity to check the cause and to allow them a fair chance to put it right.
Get the garage involved, tell them the car is a non-runner and I am sure they will arrange for it to be towed back to their premises for a full inspection. But it would be advisable to set up a formal written agreement with them in terms of who is liable for what depending on what is found, including what is the extent of any 'free' work the garage may be offering.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by Octavian_P on Aug 31^st, 2005, 1:31pm

Your motto is "Don't let the b****rs grind you down", well go to that garage that did the rebuild and MESS with them, make them "UNDERSTAND" that they screwed up you car and make 'em pay. If sombody have messd my scorp well...there would be hell on earth for that person.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by howiedintheplace on Aug 31^st, 2005, 3:36pm

Hi
gadgetmandb
Sorry to read about your bad luck. For the price you paid you must have a warranty?
You need to talk to who ever did it as soon as possible.
Keep copies of every communications & try to talk via letters or email incase things don't go well.
If the engine has been only just done & you have drove it in a sensible fashion then this should not cost you anymore money, the garage should sort it out, that's why you use a garage.
One thing if you did "cook" the engine it might have little sticky things on the core plugs, this will tell the builder if the engine over heated or not. Be prepared to explain what happened as a overheating engine is often an excuse for the garage to blame you.

Goodluck.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Aug 31^st, 2005, 3:45pm

Not that easy sometimes.... took the eay option to adbvoid the vat man and paid in cash (nudge nudge wink wink........ big mistake now.. though

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by mr._floppy on Aug 31^st, 2005, 4:24pm

VAT or not ( please tell me you have an invoice or receipt or cheque stub for the work done !!) It don't negate the garage's responsibility to carry out work to the customer's satisfaction.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Aug 31^st, 2005, 5:04pm

Look I just trying to be helpful. If makes you sick when you pay a lot of money and you get done. I not going into the mechanics, as others know more than me and will help you more.
But I got to say. (have I got it right £1500, for a complete engine rebuild.) So who did that so cheap, I mean a complete engine rebuild.
I presume you kept you speed down to 70 MPH which is the maxium speed you allowed to do anywhere in UK.
I just bet the garage is going to say you belted it and blew up the engine.
Would make it more easy if you could find out something that they did wrong,
But the point I would like to make if when paying for something,( I think it £100 upwards, forgot without looking it up) no matter what you buy or pay for, pay by Visa Card. Then you claim is against The visa Card company. It up for the Bank to sort it out then not for you to have all the trouble. Its up to the bank to give you a refund or whatever.
I never pay cash, because I never have any, forgot what it looks like.
Last point. do you want to play dirty if you can't get it sorted. Then a letter, not a phone call that can be lost. to Customes & Excise. (look in phone book for address and tell then that you paid £1500 to ??? and they did not give you a vat receipt and you beleive that they are avoiding paying VAT. You take it from me, that will stuff them good and proper.
But at the end of the day its going to be you versue them and they are going to say you abused the engine. and you are going to say you did not.
If you are in the AA or RAC what about asking their Solicitor for help. that what you pay your subscription for.
Anyway best of luck and I do hope you get it sorted.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by Octavian_P on Aug 31^st, 2005, 6:46pm

John is right, for that huge amount of money at least you can try to "convince" them to rebuild your engine, if they don't won't, than play it hard @!!! after all it's your scorp in the middle of this BIG problem.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed !!!

Cheers

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Aug 31^st, 2005, 7:54pm

Thanks guys, And yes you guessed it no recipt although I did have someone there when I paid up to get the car back, They didn't want to give me a invoice just a buisness card saying any probs and well sort it... I feel a mug now so try not to rub it in, I am big enough to know better. Normally I am mister over carefull.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Aug 31^st, 2005, 8:35pm

I was going to ask if you had a witness, but I see now that you have. Good Point for you.
I still not clear what the position is at this time. are they telling you to get lost or are they going to take the car back and put it right.
Don't go to VAT people untill all is lost, I mean you don't want to rub them up if there is a chance that they will put it right.
Going to Small Claims court will cost you around £60 or £80 to file you claim which you will lose if you lose your claim.
Mind you, you will be blasted by the District Judge (sometimes called Circuit Judge for the way you have done business with them).
This is what I honestly think, if it get nasty and you do go to court.
Your case, you have a witness to say that he was there when you paid out a £1500. Good point for you.
But that's all you have got.
You have nothing in writing to say what the contract was. "Like to take in your car and do a complete engine re-build for the sum of £1500".
You have no paperwork whatsoever.
But the law says goods and services must be of mercantable quality and fit for the purpose. Good point for you.
But the punch line is they might say the money you paid was for a lessor amount of work than a complete rebuild. And they bound to say that you must have driven the engine to harsly.
Are you prepared to spend £60 or £80 more to get them into court. Beleive me when that summons arrives in the letter box, it promts people into action, up to then they are just thinking you will in the end just pack up and go away.
At this time I am taking action against my Ford Main Dealer. At first they told me to go away. then they offered me £250 to go away, they reject this and that. but bit by bit they are given in to one ot two items bit by bit. trying to get a cheap as possible settlement.
But I am a b****r. I like a dog with a bone who won't let go. I been back over four years to pick them up with all I know they have charged for and not done.
Sorry to go on a long time but you need to know where you stand and what you can do.
Ist. try being nice to then and give then the chance to take the car back.2nd. If they won't or don't want to know, you either count your losses or go for them and hope the District Judge finds in your favour with you certain lack of proof but you do have some points on you side.
If you go to small claims, in you case it will turn nasty because the small claims will contact VAT and National Insurance and personal tax. Avoiding taxes is a major crime in their eyes. These departments all work the same and support each other.
I only came onto this site to pass a message to someone who was having trouble with his car and asked me to let him know what it was because I had my car fixed with the same problem.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Aug 31^st, 2005, 8:41pm

Does anyone know how much a Ford Recondition engine would be including fitting. You would then have a full 12 months guarantee, no question asked. Well unless you had something real stupid. Just interested myself in keeping abreast of prices.,

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 1^st, 2005, 6:08am

hi there

it's about £2.5k, top and bottom, fitted :( i think that was the cost, one of our members had it done.)

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by craig on Sep 1^st, 2005, 7:07am

yeah thats about right andrew,saw the car at weston,ok the engine looked and sounded really nice,but i cant for the life of me remember who it was ???

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by Daven on Sep 1^st, 2005, 7:34am

on 09/01/05 at 07:07:06, craig wrote:

yeah thats about right andrew,saw the car at weston,ok the engine looked and sounded really nice,but i cant for the life of me remember who it was ???

It was Keith AKA SilverGrill ;)

Dave

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Sep 1^st, 2005, 11:55am

Thanks for info, so £2500 for a complete new Ford replacement reconditioned engine. I just wonder if you think I am a bit silly, but I would have gone for the new reconditioned engine at £2500, rather than the do my own engine up, (even if it was a re-build) at £1500.
Yes I know its a whole £1000 different. but that Ford engine would give your car a new leese of life for many years to to come.
Depends how good the rest of the car is. If you got a real good car, then it would be worth taking out a bank loan to have the work done.
I seen so many people scrap there cars because it needs new engine or gearbox and buy another secondhand car and end up with that needing work done, then the same happens. so they go from pillar to post swoping and changing and end up paying even more.
At least with your own car you get to know it and what it problems are.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by mr._floppy on Sep 1^st, 2005, 3:12pm

I really do think that complex engine re-building is beyond the capabilities of your local friendly one man back street garage. A bit of welding, a damper replacement or exhaust fitment is fine but only trained and competent Ford personnel should be allowed to reassemble your engine, tighten down ,torque, test run, further tightening then final torque, Etc.

While not rocket science , it really is a job for the dedicated and thorough professional mechanic.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by howiedintheplace on Sep 1^st, 2005, 4:15pm

Hmmm well you can't always rely on Ford dealer's to do a good job but at least you will have a warranty.
Some Ford dealers do have trouble with the Cosworth but all the other engines should be O.K as they see them in all kinds of Ford models every day.
Once you find a good garage it's best to stick to them even if they cost a bit more for certain things.
Only the Cosworth motor I would say is tricky to work on, as I said even Ford get it wrong sometimes.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Sep 1^st, 2005, 6:56pm

I thinking there are two main points as regards Ford. 1st, I would assume that factory recondition units are done by true experts who are doing this work all the time.
Where 2nd. Ford Dealers are not so highly trained, even if they display on the walls of their reception lots of bits of paper, saying that they have attended this and that sort of training course.
Yes, I know there are good and bad.
But my Ford main dealer has been caught not just once but a number of times having charged for work they just have not done. Not just by me, but others. So trading standards have put their own cars in and found that work had not done.
But it not just Ford, my next door neightbour has a non ford car and he finds the same and they charge £85 per hour. and that includes going to the vending machine for tea and coffee.
I used to think the way that Mr. Floppy did about local private garages, and in the main he is right but since I dumped my FMD, I found this super garage. They got all the computer and codes stuff and can do anything. They have done a few jobs for me, and just so good and so cheap when you compare the prices I was paying to FMD.
If they can't or don't want to do certain jobs they know of others who they support and can and will take your car in and get the others to do the work. and supervise it.
Get this for a sneekey bit. I was testing this garage out with a question . I said if my automatic gearbox packed up how much would you charge for a recondition one.
They said £800 but we would take it to someone we know who are experts and collect the car and test it and make sure all is right, before releasing it.
Now comes the punch line. They said the FMD would do the same take your car in use the same expert company that they do. Then pretend to the customer that they had carried out the work, by not declaring this to the customer and then charge a massive bill, when the true price is £800.
If only there where more FMD's like there are Food supermarkets then we would have choice and some FMD would go out of business.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by Highlander on Sep 2^nd, 2005, 10:12pm

on 09/01/05 at 18:56:24, John wrote:

If only there where more FMD's like there are Food supermarkets then we would have choice and some FMD would go out of business.

Many are taking advantage of the majority who dont know about cars.
If none of us could knew what a good banana tasted like im sure some supermarkets would do the same thing:D

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 9:01pm

Did not know that FMD's sold Bananas. As most people realised, what was being said, was, if there where more Ford Main Dealers around, (and I used the exsample of Supermarkets, because there are so many.) then FMD's would be forced to improve their services and lower their prices.
There is only one FMD in a city the size that I live in.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by nutty on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 9:58pm

well, my scorp had a new engine supplied by ford fitted about 4-5 yrs ago, the car is an ex taxi, from a fleet of 35 at the time. on average, every week one of them was having a new engine or gearbox fitted ( they do get treated like go karts, foot down etc) anyway, my new engine, has been thrashed by many different drivers (in its time as a cab) from day 1. it done about 40k now, and srprisingly, it still purrs like a kitten. i have noticed on the top a sticker, put in place, by ford stating "service engine" i'm not sure, but could it be that a service engine is made for more harder work? like cabs/reps etc? can someone confim/deny this? if its true, it may be well worh looking for one.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 4^th, 2005, 8:23am

hi there

i think 'service engine' is a reconditioned unit. ford do both new and factory reconditioned. same for gearboxes and maybe clutches.

hth

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by Highlander on Sep 4^th, 2005, 11:07am

on 09/03/05 at 21:01:05, John wrote:

Lol I dont think they do John, but if they did i wonder what price they'd be!!
What I was trying to say was that the average person will not be fully aware of the level of service they are getting from their Garage compared to what they get from their supermarket due to lack of car knowledge vs banana tasting knowledge :D

Im sure the average Joe Public just drops the car off, gets the phone call about all the defects and coughs up the cash.

Had a friend this week who had just this with a Land Rover Main Dealer.
Had her Discovery MOT'd all ok but was advised to get LR to check dashboard lights as ABS/Traction Control and Hill Descent lights were lit. (everything working ok, just lights staying on pointing to an electrical fault)
LR got it the next day,connected it to their OBD and phoned her stating she needed a new hub as one of hers was on the way out (this is the day after it passed MOT which she didnt mention to them)
Anyway new hub fitted from LR is £500 plus!!
A quick visit to an auto electrician turned up a broken wire which was replaced, curing the problem.. total cost £60!
Trading standards are now involved...

She would have quite happily paid out for the new hub (which im sure would have included a wire repair in there somewhere) had it not been for a couple of people with a bit of car knowledge telling her something sounded dodgy..

Needless to say she wont be back to that Land Rover garage but will look for somewhere else with better tasting bananas :D

The best idea is to find a local guy you can trust who has the equipment to maintain your vehicle.
In some cases this will be the FMD but as a few of us have found out sometimes its not.

While its a nice thought, Ford or any other business are not going to initiate competition between their own dealerships by increasing the numbers at greater cost to them..

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Sep 4^th, 2005, 12:15pm

That's the trouble, there are more people who don't know anything about cars, they just take them in to their dealership leave the keys. and pick up the car later and pay what demanded of them.
If you where having say double glazing you might get three or four quotes. but how can you get three or four quotes from a FMD, in my case there is only one.
I wonder if Ford and others, only grant dealership to one or two so as to be able to substain their high charges.
Lots of MOT stations have had to move towards being staight because of competition.
Where I live they must be around 150 MOT Stations, so if anyone feels they have been done, next time they go elsewhere.
They are fighting each other to get business. like; half price MOT and you only pay for a pass, and no retest fee and other ways to get in the business.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by DJWerkz on Sep 5^th, 2005, 12:02am

There are alot of horror stories around concerning cars that have been wrecked by garages who think they know what they are doing when they do not (and most of them will never own up when it's clear they didn't have a clue). My own car is also testimony of this (as STN will verify).
I would like to provide some of my own figures on Cosworth prices as £2.5k previously quoted is not correct.
I contacted three different Ford outlets and they all told me that new Cosworth engines are no longer available (when they were they were around the £7k mark). Replacement engines are still available though but these are all reconditioned units and the cost is £4.5k (approx.). This was the same figure quoted by all three Ford outlets.
I also got three quotes from companies who have years of experience reconditioning the Cosworth motor and a complete rebuild was around the £3.5k mark.
I am confident that these figures are correct because this data formed an integral part of my legal claim against the garage that wrecked my engine.
Don't really know what else to say other than try your best to get it resolved with the garage in an ammicable manner and avoid the legal route if you can, it's not pleasant. But then sometimes necessary :(

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 5^th, 2005, 5:52am

hi there

figure quoted is for a factory recon 2.3 engine as in the original post.

regards

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by DJWerkz on Sep 5^th, 2005, 8:18am

Oops, my mistake! :-[

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by gadgetmandb on Sep 5^th, 2005, 9:05am

On contacvting Dagenham Motors they have quoted me £1600+ vat for a
re conditioned 2.3 engine. I of course now wish I had gone this route.
Small ray of light, when I dropped the keys off yesterday(Sunday) Morning the lads said don't worry, well find out what went wrong and fix it. IF it is our fault because of the components we used or our workmanship then it is down to us.
These are not just any old garage they are racing engine spoecialists dealing with high performance engines day in day out.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by howiedintheplace on Sep 5^th, 2005, 12:10pm

gadgetmandb
Well sounds like hope mate, glad your making some progress. Lets hope they own up & repair it.
I wounldn't be to confident that they deal with high performance engines day in day out.
Recently someone I met took his Skyline to a known performance specialist to have £18000 of engine mods.
It was took upto 750 bhp, it blew up 4 times in 5 months & we have discorvered that each time the engine was rebuilt they used the old parts from the stock motor to replace the broken uprated parts?
That car is now in Holland & has just blown again.
A Dutch firm has produced a 2 sided A4 paper with all the faults of the engine build listed. Basically the engine is now shot & a replacement is being built up correctly now.

Also a new Cosworth 24v motor? They are around but not from Ford, some specialist old parts sellers have them every now & then. Also on ebay now & then.
I had one a few months back, a full motor. I kept what I wanted & sold the rest on ebay (item no. 4557488732)
It was a complete engine & I purchased it for £110 only.

The only problem is they just turn up sometimes & you can never get one when you need one.

Title: Re: Bloody thing
Post by John on Sep 5^th, 2005, 6:05pm

So it seems like after all the postings, there never was any problem in getting them to sort it out, just the inconveince of it breaking down and needing sorting.
Still, in the end, be interested in how it all works out.