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        General >> Problems >> Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Again!!
        
(Message started by: Baz on Nov 1st, 2005, 5:20pm)
Title: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Again!!
Post by Baz on Nov 1st, 2005, 5:20pm
Despite having changed the thermostat, hoses, cap, bottle and fitted a new radiator back in May, I have had the the car on the ramps at my mates garage today and discovered that this radiator has ballooned by about 1.75 inches and has burst off the straps at the front and back and is now losing water at quite an alarming rate; more so than the one it replaced!!

The thermostat theory may need to be revised unless anyone knows better!!


Thanks to Bill at Watson Automotive who has agreed to replace the ballooned rad and is also going to sort me out a complete alloy unit that should really really really sort out the problem!!

Baz
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 1st, 2005, 5:56pm
Hmmm this is odd, so even if you replace everything that was reguarded as a possible cause the rad still goes. Maybe something to do with as the system gets older it becomes less efficient as the rubbish builds up & partly bad design causing it ???

Odd that it is not a issue with the BOA Mk3 engine but that uses a different layout & rad so could that be the reason ???

I myself have only found 1 good rad from 8 BOB 24v Cosworths. It is very common.

Baz have you got that rad I sent you?
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 1st, 2005, 7:47pm
Dave,

Yes I got it thanks....I never got round to letting you know. My car is only a 1998 model and only had 58,000 on when I got it and it has so far got through 4 radiators in less than 20,000 miles!! Thank god most were free or cheap!

Baz
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 1st, 2005, 8:19pm
hi barry

what about wrong anti-freeze or the mix? can't think of anything else that you haven't changed! ;)
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 1st, 2005, 8:41pm
Filled it up each time with the right mix so can't be that either Andrew.....
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 1st, 2005, 10:01pm
Well I have stripped a engine with a good rad & also a fair few now with blown rads. None of them show any signs of gasket failure or any signs of cooling problems apart from ballooned rads of course.

Next on my list will be to open up 2 thermostats.
1 from a ballooned car & the other from a good car to see if there is any difference.

Still the radiator saga continues . . . .

Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by martin_rowe on Nov 2nd, 2005, 8:43am
remember the old days when all t/stats had a toggle pin, never bothered to look but is it possable to pop a 3mm hole through the stat plate, may be worth a try.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Eric_R on Nov 2nd, 2005, 3:25pm
Baz,
Have you tested the old thermostat and the new one in water with a thermometer to see what temperature they open? Is there a difference?  Is the new thermostat faulty? It has been known.

Another possibility is that the petrol mixture is weak - have you checked the long term fuel trims (LTFT)? If they are well to the positive then the fuelling is weak.  Weak mixtures can hugely increase the amount of heat that has to be removed from the engine.

Is the EGR working correctly?  If that is blocked off for any reason then the flame temperature at mid-throttle will be very high.

My own radiator has been changed - not for ballooning but for an internal leak that messed up my autobox - at 120,000 miles.  No sign of ballooning on my old one.  There must be something with your particular car that is aggravating this problem.  Have you had the OBD read and check for the above?
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Eric_R on Nov 2nd, 2005, 3:27pm

on 11/01/05 at 22:01:59, howiedintheplace wrote:
Well I have stripped a engine with a good rad & also a fair few now with blown rads. None of them show any signs of gasket failure or any signs of cooling problems apart from ballooned rads of course.

Next on my list will be to open up 2 thermostats.
1 from a ballooned car & the other from a good car to see if there is any difference.

Still the radiator saga continues . . . .


Howied,
Before you dismantle them, could you do a test with a thermometer in a pan of hot water and check for the opening temp of both of your thermostats?  Watch carefully for the opening rate as well, and how fully they open.  Cheers  ;)
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Eric_R on Nov 2nd, 2005, 3:37pm

on 11/02/05 at 08:43:46, martin_rowe wrote:
remember the old days when all t/stats had a toggle pin, never bothered to look but is it possable to pop a 3mm hole through the stat plate, may be worth a try.


Yep, remember those.  But they were for closed systems - the 'stat mounted in the head like the DOHC models, and merely allowed the coolant some expansion as it heated up from cold and the 'stat was closed.  The 24V have a by-pass type 'stat - the coolant is constantly circulating through the heads until it reaches operating temperature - then the 'stat opens to allow a flow through to the radiator.  A hole bored through this kind of thermostat would merely delay the heads getting to a proper temperature, and mpg is bad enough as it is,  ;D
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Snoopy on Nov 2nd, 2005, 4:19pm
Is the water pump working correctly and circulating the water?, If not then the local hot spots develop and can cause the shock waves that you think it might be .
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Highlander on Nov 2nd, 2005, 5:37pm
Is it always the bottom fins of the Rads that go?
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 2nd, 2005, 6:47pm
Eric,

The last time I ran an OBD scan, it showed no problems at all. No codes and no eroneous readings anywhere. I will try and fit another one in this weekend if I get chance (Building a conservatory!!) As for testing the thermostats, one is probably in a landfill by now and the other is an hours work away just to remove it! I think I would scrap the car before having to take that aircon compressor off again!

Yes Highlander....it is always the bottom fins that seem to go as that appears to be the weakest part of the system.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Paul B on Nov 2nd, 2005, 6:51pm
Can't believe this bad luck... again!

I've never had this problem with mine. Or at least I don't think so.

Can anyone tell me exactly where this ballooning takes place and just how does it look?  ???


EDIT:  Ah, the bottom fins.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 2nd, 2005, 8:40pm
Well most of the rads I have seen have gone at the top.
A couple looked good until I took off the fans & found that the rad had ballooned behind the fan at the top. >:(
Also had one go at the bottom but mostly the top.

Eric I will check as you said & take some pics.

Snoopy only one of the water pumps out of 9 24v's showed any problems. Grooved as if something metal had been forced past it but still worked O.K.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 8th, 2005, 9:18pm
Well had a play today ;)
Tested 2 Stats from ballooned rads & 1 stat from a good rad.

The ballooned rads did not look very old but the good one is old (Baz has it now)
All stats looked old & no indication that they had been replaced recently.

Results in celcius

. . . . . .               Open   F/Open       Shut
Rad O.K.                     88                 98                       84
Balloon 1                     95                100+                90
Balloon 2                     88                 95                       82


 
Well until I tested the last one it looked like it maybe the stat causing the rad to balloon but that one worked just as good as the one from the good rad. The pin hole was blocked but I don't think it would have much of a effect?
So I wonder what caused that rad to balloon, I know the head gaskets where O.K.
A bit of a mystery ???

Pics.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat01.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat01.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat02.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat02.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat03.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat03.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat04.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat04.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat05.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat05.jpg)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat06.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat06.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat07.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat07.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat08.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat08.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat09.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat09.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_Stat10.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/Stat10.jpg)http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/th_bob014.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b228/DavidHoward/Scorpio/bob014.jpg)
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 8th, 2005, 9:21pm
So we are no nearer to knowing why some can last forever and a day and others blow like billy-o every few thousand miles.....I can feel a new car coming on....
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 8th, 2005, 9:27pm
Afraid not, the thermostat may have an effect but I am not convinced it is the cause now. ???
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Danny_R on Nov 9th, 2005, 3:01pm
I think the radiators themselves must just be c**p!!! What else can it be? I appreciate while some people have not experienced any problems at all, I really think we could have a build quality issue here (i.e. the ballooning rads were built on Friday afternoon or something). I understand 'SaveTheNight' is developing a much stronger rad to try out. Would be interesting to see how that turns out.

On another note, my 2.0 16v blew a small hole at the bottom just underneath the auto cooler pipes. I replaced with a second hand rad from a scrap yard. That lasted 3 weeks and blew another hole in the same place. I went to Ford and purchased a new one. The new ones compared to the older ones looked really cheap and only weighed half as much. Moved to America not long after that and my Scorp has been stood for a year on a driveway in England so cant give results on how the new rad turned out.

Has anyone tried running the 24v without the stat in the housing so the water circulates from start? I imagine it would difficult to start at cold and mess all the computer stuff up?

Kind Regards

Danny_R
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by mr._floppy on Nov 9th, 2005, 8:56pm
The thermostat  only really  comes into play in cold weather, i.e.  enabling the engine block to get to  operating  temp. ASAP.
           A simple component, and often unfairly blamed for many radiator problems,  either they don't open ( fairly rare ) and  bang goes your  head gasket, or  they  don't close and the worst that happens is  the  engine takes longer to reach optimum temp.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Highlander on Nov 9th, 2005, 9:24pm
does anyone have a layout diagram of the 24v coolant system  I could have a look at?
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 9th, 2005, 11:26pm
Well to be honest can't figure out why the rads balloon.

Must be a bad bit of design some where ;)
The Old 24V Mk3's never had a problem :)

A cure could be a presure valve fitted on the top hose ;D
Be just like a pressure cooker then  }{
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Highlander on Nov 10th, 2005, 12:09am
Yep good idea, we could put a few onto Baz's with whistles attached and he could see what tune they played ;)
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 10th, 2005, 12:15am
ha ha very funny.......

I have just spoken to STN and a replacement rad is on its way.....I have also asked for a new alloy rad as well, so a chance to sort it once and for all....
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by martin_rowe on Nov 10th, 2005, 8:52am
another thing to try, take out the stat from the housing & re fit, fit an inline t/stat assy in the top hose, can get them from most m/sport outlets, that would allow coolant to flow around the heads but not circulate through the rad untill the stat opened.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 10th, 2005, 9:06am
Martin,

The Coisworth stat is a 3 way unit and it isn't easily removed from its housing. I really think that this is a case of crap rad manufacture because there are some cars which have done 100000 + on the same rad and others like mine with 77000 and 4 radiators. If it was a design flaw, every car would be affected in some way. If it is a manufacturing issue, some will be good, others bad. When I fitted a rad off Danny R's donor car a while back, that ran for quite a while and never balooned....it just had a leak at the drain hole so I changed it anyway!
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by lonesomecajun on Nov 10th, 2005, 9:19am
I replaced my radiator about a month ago after it burst in spectacular fashion when pulling away from work, it may have ballooned prior to this but I never had a reason to look at it before, I'd just put a new water pump in about a week prior to this so had a very expensive time.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by LiverpaulH on Nov 10th, 2005, 5:00pm

on 11/08/05 at 21:21:40, Baz wrote:
So we are no nearer to knowing why some can last forever and a day and others blow like billy-o every few thousand miles.....I can feel a new car coming on....


A really low miler that's based in the midlands? ;)
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 11th, 2005, 11:25am
No....either a galaxy or an X5!!
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 11th, 2005, 8:07pm
Baz don't get a 2.3 Galaxy as you will probably have trouble with the inlet/head as many a 2.3 Scorpio owner will tell you, X5's are thirsty & slow compared to a BMW car of same spec.

This rad thing, maybe if you get the engine to run a bit cooler it would not build up as much pressure in the system. Lots of aftermarket stats to try like this one http://www.nfauto.co.uk/thermostat_bypass.htm
Just a thought.

Also if anyone wants to get to grips with how a cooling system works read the basic's here (copied from another site)
 
Cooling systems
So you knew what the cooling system does
NOW THE WATER MOVES AROUND THE ENGINE GETTING IT
COOLER BUT HOW
well it is moved via a water pump through the engine block water jacket passing as much metal as possible piston bores cylinder head etc etc so how does it get hot ?as the water passes by the pistons they transmit heat as an explosion accurse in the bores heat is transfer to all surrounding metal work .the water is here to aid the transfer of that heat to move it away from the area as quick as possible as water heats it boils then will become very hot in the immediate area so we install a water pump this moves the water around the engine and pipe work etc
so what happens
the water travels through the engine passing through pipes most important the RADIATOR this is a piece or pipe work many metres long but you say its not. LOOK at the rad two sides and many tubes going from one side to the other and back again BUT IF YOU LOOK MORE YOU CAN SEE METAL BETWEEN THE TUBES this is to multiply the area of the radiator more making it actual capabilities of cooling much greater if this is missing due to age it will not function as well also it helps the solidness of the radiator when hot. so once it passes through the rad it gets colder then it start all over again .a radiator fan aids the cooling of the radiator water this can be electric or the older car had mechanical driven by belt Fan belt hence the name fan belt
most modern cars have electric fans ?
So how do they work...when the water passes the radiator it measures the temperature of the water
this is done by the radiator switch if the temperature is below a set temperature it remains off BUT if it is greater than a set temperature it will switch the fan on till the switch goes off again this will keep happening all the time if the water is hot on off on off etc on hot days it can remain on for long periods of time like in traffic .but on cold days it might not even come on.
All cars have a thermostat this controls the way the engine gets hot with most modern cars we need the engine to get hot as quick as possible so we use less fuel it burns more efficient less engine damage also get the interior of the car hot quick on a cold days
the thermostat allows the water to flow or not to flow
if we stop the flow of water around the engine it will get hot the longer we stop the flow the quicker the water gets hot so the quicker the choke or similar systems will deactivate or activate as you see it can control the burning of fuel or the heating of the car
the thermostat only opens when the water reaches a certain temperature its allows water to flow around the engine to reach all pipes rad heater etc once the water starts to circulate the water will cool the thermostat will monitor this if it gets below a set temperature it will close till it reaches over that temperature again . hot days it will remain open once reached over this temperature
if a thermostat stays closed when it should be open it can cause overheating then it will boil up steam water will escape from rad or header tank
HEADERTANK is the most high part of the cooling system it allows water to escape air in the system it a way of monitoring the water level its where you add coolant or water its where the pressure cap is fitted to allow excusive pressure
be released if need be
coolant is what all cars have in their water system this is actually a multifunction property
it acts as an antifreeze to allow the car to be driven in the winter without draining the water every day like they used to many years ago but more important the engine is made of metal and water and metal do not mix .metal corrodes rust
this stops the engine from rusting within
antifreeze should be changed annually or manufactures specifications
this is a job that needs to be done before the winter sets in STOP......to change the coolant in a car you must note several things the amount required not too much not to little .the type of antifreeze check manufactures specs
now if the water is drained it might need flushing as well with (caution can cause problems)
totally drain top up antifreeze or mix allow water to flow through all pipe work especially the heater and all pipe work and rad make sure heaters on hot run engine till all pipes are hot if not there might be trapped air this has to be bled off via an bleed screw these are normally found on heater pipes thermostat housing radiators top hoses highest point of cooling system choke or manifold normally 2 types fitted
when all pipes bled get hot run checking all hoses and heater and radiator are all getting hot
DANGER DANGER moving parts fans etc hot water ....
when all is ok make sure the fan cuts in at least twice and goes off check temperature does not go into too hot , then road test if all is well let cool down when cold recheck water levels and strength of antifreeze
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by nodge on Nov 13th, 2005, 9:16pm
Couldn't this problem be caused by faulty filler caps? After all, it's this component that is supposed to relieve excess pressure.

Nodge
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Highlander on Nov 14th, 2005, 12:55pm
its only a 24v problem though
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by nodge on Nov 14th, 2005, 7:20pm
I thought perhaps they are just more prone to hot spots than other engines and more likely to get an excess pressure build up.

Reading Baz's post again though I see he fitted a new cap when he fitted the last rad so I guess it's ruled that out.

Nodge
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 14th, 2005, 10:55pm
Tried everything Nodge that is easy. I am not going to start messing about with taking the stat out again and all the problems with dropping the aircon compressor etc.......That Jag S Type is looking better all the time!!
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 15th, 2005, 9:59am
Hmm well I reckon the build up of sluge on some of the pipes has got something to do with it all.
The cars I have checked have had a fair bit on the pipes going to the expansion tank & smaller diameter pipes increase pressure so maybe? Also the system has a lot of twist & turns in it which could be a problem.
When these engines are fitted to other cars they use the thermosat usally but change the pipe work lay out. They don't seem to have a problem, but they also change the rad so maybe it's that.  ???
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by des on Nov 26th, 2005, 7:08pm
has anyone got any further with this problem
my symptoms have re appeared
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by nic on Nov 26th, 2005, 7:34pm
Baz,

You are tooo young for an s type, now an xjr and you are talking, only ifits the V8 though ;D
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 26th, 2005, 11:24pm
Decided to hang on for a few months.....the wife has just gone and ordered a new Megane Cabriolet Auto for pre-xmas delivery....b****r!!
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 27th, 2005, 11:19am
Baz
If you do take the stat off, I would just test it to make sure it is opening up at about 88 degrees mate.
You can just see it working you don't have to destroy them like I did ;D
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Nov 27th, 2005, 11:30am
Dave,

I would love to but it is a right pain to get off as you know. I can see that the stat is opening from the temp guage as it stays low for s while and then the needle shoots up to normal after a mile or so. The cabin heater is too hot to have on Hi so no matrix sludging I don't think. The car was fully flushed last week as part of the new rad changeover so I am now running with an un-ballooned rad.......for how long I don't know!
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Big_Green_Tank on Nov 30th, 2005, 1:44pm
Has anyone tried running one of thier Cosworths without the thermostat fitted.
I know that it will take a lot longer to warm up but, it is just thought!
Though if the problem then goes away I can't think what the next step would be!!

Bob
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Highlander on Nov 30th, 2005, 5:49pm
The thermostat on these is a three way T-piece design and not your standard round thermostat, but might be worth making something up, especially on a car with a regular rad problem.
Engine temperature might be a problem though  :-/
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 30th, 2005, 6:35pm
Well I reckon if you changed it for a lower temp one it will help if not stop it, they are avaiable & are cheaper than Fords.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by des on Nov 30th, 2005, 6:47pm
has any-one tried connecting  a 0-60 psi gauge in the header tank return line to see if and what pressure there is building up and if the cap is actually working and blowing off.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Dec 7th, 2005, 2:13am
Dave,

where are they available from? The Cossie stats are built into the 3 way housing and not available (as far as I know) as a pattern part!!
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 7th, 2005, 10:53am
They are out there baz, other cars use them & they are also used on some track cars.
Something like this http://www.nfauto.co.uk/thermostat_bypass.htm
You could get that to fit & it opens 10 deg earlier.
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Big_Green_Tank on Dec 9th, 2005, 1:22pm
Is that the shape of the Cossie thermostat?

Bob
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Mar 26th, 2006, 8:58pm
Baz is ya rad still holding out ?



And did you ever find out y it happen ?



Do u think it is the build quality of rads being made ?
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by Baz on Mar 26th, 2006, 11:01pm
The rad is still holding out....just. It does have a slight leak at the moment but it hasn't ballooned at all... I hope STN is still on with building my alloy one!!

Which bloomin reminds me, I have two radiators in my shed to send to Bill. I must remember tomorrow

Baz
Title: Re: Oh dear....The Ballooning Radiator is Back Aga
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Mar 27th, 2006, 3:41pm
i hve my old one in my shed , it had ballooned as well ! wondering how long my new one will last  ???


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