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        General >> Problems >> Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
        
(Message started by: kskjon on Nov 2nd, 2005, 7:24pm)
Title: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 2nd, 2005, 7:24pm
Hello.

My 1995 2.0 16v suddenly stopped starting. It has been parked for about a week since the last time it started.
Lately, it hasn't idled well (idle was dropping, almost until it stopped, then racing up again to around 2000rpm, and then dropping down towards almost stopping again, continuing till it would heat up, then it would settle down).

It is cranking now, and it seems like it's almost starting, but not quite. Spark plugs were changed not long ago.

I checked ALL the fuses in the main and auxillary fuseboxes, plus every fuse I could see underneath the dashboard, all were good.

I used the instrument reset function to check my battery voltage. It reads 12.2V while connected to a charger, and fluctuates between 10.5V and 11.5V when cranking. Is this normal?

The gas pump seems to start. I can hear a buzzing sound, coming from the rear, for about a sec after the ignition is turned on.

Any ideas?

Edit: Forgot to mention that the poor idling is most likely a faulty EGR. Atleast that is what my FMD tells me. I have a new valve, but I haven't fitted it yet.
Just thought I should mention the poor idle-problem, in case it could be related.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Paul B on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:08pm
Have a look here if you haven't done so already....
www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds.htm)
There may be something there that you haven't checked.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:19pm
WILL NOT START

Was battery disconnected?

NO:

1.  Check the PATS led on top of dashboard.  Is it flashing a code?
Nope, but then, it never has flashed anything.

2. Check Injection Cut-Off switch in boot
Checked, ok

3. Check Fuses F16 and F17 in main fuse box
Checked, ok

4. Check F31, F34, F37 and F42 in auxiliary fuse box
Checked, ok

5.  Check Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box
How?
6. Get OBD reading - suspect CKP or CMP sensors
Did try to get an OBD2-reading once, it didn't work. I suspect it to be incompatible..

7. Check main fuse box for water contamination
Checked, _seems_ to be dry. All covers fitted properly.



Engine turns over but does not fire?

YES:

1. Check fuses F31, F34, F37, F42
Checked, ok

2. OBD check for faulty CKP sensor and/or CMP sensor
OBD2-lead doesn't seem to be compatible. Any way to check them manually?



(minor edit..)
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Paul B on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:42pm

on 11/02/05 at 22:19:52, kskjon wrote:
5.  Check Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box
How?



I think the only way is to swap it for a known good one.



on 11/02/05 at 22:19:52, kskjon wrote:
6. Get OBD reading - suspect CKP or CMP sensors
Did try to get an OBD2-reading once, it didn't work. I suspect it to be incompatible..


I thought the only model not compatible was the 2.9 12v.  Can't be certain about that though.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 2nd, 2005, 10:49pm

on 11/02/05 at 22:42:04, Paul B wrote:
I think the only way is to swap it for a known good one.


Okay, so there isn't any notes on how the relays should operate? Ex: 12V on conn 1 should give 5V on conn 2 etc?


on 11/02/05 at 22:42:04, Paul B wrote:
I thought the only model not compatible was the 2.9 12v.  Can't be certain about that though.


I have an early '95 (still frogeyed, though), and I seem to remember reading somewhere that EARLY models only had the EEC IV fitted.. which wasn't OBD2-compatible.. but I may be wrong. Atleast the OBD2-lead I tested didn't work with my laptop. (USB SERIAL OBD2-lead, connected via USB -> Serial link SERIAL -> USB link, Vehicle Explorer)


Edit:

Serial OBD2.. not USB.. and I don't have a Serial conn on my laptop...
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by David_South_West on Nov 3rd, 2005, 12:23am
12.2 volts at battery when connected to charger seems a bit low
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Thunderchild on Nov 3rd, 2005, 6:48am
Got to agree with David. The battery seems very low. These beasts are very sensitive to low battery voltage and while the engine will turn over, there isn't enough juice to get a decent spark. Either fully charge the battery or replace it with a known good one.

HTH

Thunderchild
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 3rd, 2005, 7:55am
Thanks alot everybody!

I hope the battery will be fully charged when I come home tonight, if not, it's probably time for a battery swap.
I could "loan" the battery of my brothers vectra, and hope that battery is powerful enough for my beast  :)

Too bad I won't be home until late. I want my beloved car running  :(
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Eric_R on Nov 3rd, 2005, 11:34pm
Jon,
Your 1995 16V is definitely OBDII compliant. If the OBD lead didn't work it was an issue with the USB/Serial interface rather than the lead itself - other owners have had problems with these.

It's worth bearing in mind that the engine has 1 second to fire when the engine is turned on the starter - the EECV checks for a firing event after 1 second and if the engine isn't running it turns off the Injectors to prevent damage to the washcoat on the catalysts, so turning the engine on the starter for longer than the 1 second is wasting the battery.

I agree that the voltage is too low. This can cause problems with relays as well as the EECV so get the battery charged fully first and see it that improves it.  The new Cadmium batteries can fail literally overnight and cause havoc with the electrics.

The EGR valve could also be causing the problem. If it is sticking open it is admitting unmetered air into the inlet system and could weaken the mixture when cold, and also cause a racing idle.  Turning the engine excessively may have flattened the battery, but a good one should be able to take that.

If you can hear the fuel pump running when you first turn on the ignition than the fuel pump relay is working.

If the starting problems cease then change the battery for a new one.  If the problems persist with a new battery then I strongly suggest getting the EGR valve replaced asap.

If that still does not improve things then check the Fuel Cutoff Loom and get the OBD read, because the wiring may be causing an intermittent CKP or CMP signal.

HTH
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 12:37am

on 11/03/05 at 23:34:53, Eric_R wrote:
Jon,
Your 1995 16V is definitely OBDII compliant. If the OBD lead didn't work it was an issue with the USB/Serial interface rather than the lead itself - other owners have had problems with these.


I should probably have another try with an older laptop then (with onboard serial port)


on 11/03/05 at 23:34:53, Eric_R wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that the engine has 1 second to fire when the engine is turned on the starter - the EECV checks for a firing event after 1 second and if the engine isn't running it turns off the Injectors to prevent damage to the washcoat on the catalysts, so turning the engine on the starter for longer than the 1 second is wasting the battery.

I agree that the voltage is too low. This can cause problems with relays as well as the EECV so get the battery charged fully first and see it that improves it.  The new Cadmium batteries can fail literally overnight and cause havoc with the electrics.


Haven't had time to do anything more today (since I left at 9am and came home at 1:30am), but I seriously suspect the battery to be dead (or soon will be).



on 11/03/05 at 23:34:53, Eric_R wrote:
The EGR valve could also be causing the problem. If it is sticking open it is admitting unmetered air into the inlet system and could weaken the mixture when cold, and also cause a racing idle.  Turning the engine excessively may have flattened the battery, but a good one should be able to take that.


Won't argue with you on that one  :)


on 11/03/05 at 23:34:53, Eric_R wrote:
If you can hear the fuel pump running when you first turn on the ignition than the fuel pump relay is working.


I think I can hear the fuel pump. There is a short buzzing sound originating from the rear when I turn on the ignition. This sound stops after 0.5-1 sec.


on 11/03/05 at 23:34:53, Eric_R wrote:
If the starting problems cease then change the battery for a new one.  If the problems persist with a new battery then I strongly suggest getting the EGR valve replaced asap.

If that still does not improve things then check the Fuel Cutoff Loom and get the OBD read, because the wiring may be causing an intermittent CKP or CMP signal.

HTH


Thanks, will do that!
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 12:20pm
It has been raining hard all day, so I haven't been able to do a battery swap yet. Hopefully it will be dryer when i come home from work.

After a few days of charging, the battery now reads 12.5-12.6V just after turning on the ignition.. but after a few seconds, it was falling slowly towards 12.0.
Took about a minute, then it was 12.0... I think i can say the battery is dead? (Edit: Keep in mind: this was with the charger connected)

Btw.. this is probably a stupid question, but what is the fan-like noise coming from the engine (or atleast the front of the car) when I turn on the ignition? It's not the cooling fans, I've checked those. Some sort of pump maybe?
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 4th, 2005, 12:28pm
hi there

could be the heater fans :-/ they come on with the ignition unless you turn the fan (auto) dial to off.

hth
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 6:58pm
Nah, heater is turned off. I don't have A/C or C/C.. Just an ordinary heater
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Simmo on Nov 4th, 2005, 8:04pm
Surely it has to be one or the other !!!!?.Did they make a Scorp without either???,
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 9:12pm
It has three knobs.. Fan speed (+ resirc toggle), heat/cold adj and the "location toggle"..

None of them are marked with A/C..

Works just like on my old scorp ('87 granada CL)

Remember, this is one of the odd GLX'es which were sold in Norway.. It doesn't match with any of the trim levels sold in the UK..
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 4th, 2005, 10:49pm
It sounds like you have a Mk3 Granada Scorpio interior ??? Well the heater is at least.

Is your car a bug eyed Scorpio or a Mk3 Granada Scorpio ;)
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:05pm
It is the "frog eyed" one.. (And I KNOW the difference.. I used to own what you call a mk3 Granada  ;)) But as I said.. I've found the trim levels to be completely different in Norway opposed to the UK..

Don't think there was a trim level in the UK fitting my equipment list..

Traction Control
2x airbag
Front electric windows
Front fog-lights
Rear fog-lights
Headlight washer jets
High-mounted rear stop light
Electrically operated and heated door mirrors
Delayed courtesy lights

Yet it lacks a lot of the stuff included in the Ghia.. And it doesn't have a single complete "option pack" for the executive.. So atleast from what I can find, it is a weird mix of most trim levels.

Called GLX over here..

And btw.. the Ghia was the top trim level over here.. Being (atleast close to) equal the Ultima level in the UK.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:39pm
kskjon
Sorry mate had to ask as some things don't sound right.
Do you have any pics of the dash, heater or car :)
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:42pm
No, not at the moment, but that can be fixed tomorrow if you want me to.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Highlander on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:42pm
He's still not convinced! lol
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:44pm
;D
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:46pm
No I am  :)
But some things don't sound right so want to see some pics to see how special this car is  ;D
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 4th, 2005, 11:50pm
You're probably right  ;)

A lot of things aren't right about my car.. As stated in another thread, I even found the cruise control deactivator switches on the car.. But the c/c steering wheel was missing (having the normal one), along with c/c actuator, cables, etc..

So there is something bisarre about it..

Edit:

I don't think I even want to know what previous owners has done to her  :)
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 6th, 2005, 3:29pm
howiedintheplace:

here's the pictures you wanted  ;D

http://gandalfs.mine.nu/~kjetil/scorpio/5A4E0009.jpg
http://gandalfs.mine.nu/~kjetil/scorpio/5A4E0010.jpg
http://gandalfs.mine.nu/~kjetil/scorpio/5A4E0011.jpg
http://gandalfs.mine.nu/~kjetil/scorpio/5A4E0012.jpg
http://gandalfs.mine.nu/~kjetil/scorpio/5A4E0013.jpg
http://gandalfs.mine.nu/~kjetil/scorpio/5A4E0014.jpg

Btw, sorry for the poor quality. Couldn't find my "real" camera atm, so I used my cell phone.

And my stereo isn't glowing pink.. hehe.. It's actually glowing blue, but the colors got a bit messed up  ;D
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 6th, 2005, 4:27pm
Hi Again

Well the reason I asked for pics was a couple of weeks ago I was helping a guy in Germany with a dash fault on a 96 car. After much head stratching I finaly worked out it had a MK3 dash fitted :o

Anyway yours is all Scorpio mate & a rare one, can see you have the basic heater & no front heated screen either I think? (Can't see in pic for sure) Do you have a trip computer on it?

How you getting on with the new battery ???
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 6th, 2005, 4:48pm
No front heated screen, only the rear. And no trip computer. But I must say, this heater is A LOT quicker than on my old mk3. I guess Ford has tweaked something from the mk3 heater to the Scorp heater.

Haven't gotten around getting a new battery yet. I've been at school during the daytime (studying comp sci at the local university), and working late hours at work. On top of that, it has been raining pretty much constantly the last few days. Why can't things like this happen when I have time off (not that it is happening very often :-))..
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 9th, 2005, 10:42pm
Great news everybody! I finally got the new battery and swapped it. Just a quick little turn the ignition key and yay!, it started. Idle wasn't good, but I don't expect that either. I guess the EEC was reset when the battery was out.

My god, I was nervous when I turned the key.

Thanks alot, to everyone who has helped. It is much appreciated!
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Highlander on Nov 10th, 2005, 12:14am
Another one back on the road  ;D
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 10th, 2005, 12:20am
Yes, thanks to the endless knowlegde of the people on this forum.  :D
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 10th, 2005, 4:52pm
And it died.. Again...
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Scorpioen84 on Nov 10th, 2005, 6:30pm
oh, no.!

What have they done to the Scorp.? {}
Have had mine for over 2 years and newer had any probs... ;D

Do you think its the battery again.?    :-/
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by David_South_West on Nov 10th, 2005, 8:37pm
alternator charging ?
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 10th, 2005, 11:58pm
Haven't got any warning lights on the alternator.. And it does light up before it starts..

Here is the weird part. I took the negative conn off the battery for about an hour. Re-connected. Everything worked fine.

There must be an electrical gremlin somewhere..

Edit:

So it is running again.. for now..
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Scorpioen84 on Nov 11th, 2005, 12:58am
hmmmm.....

a burned print somewhere...? Not resetting the system or somthing like that....?

Just my first tought since you suspected it had been done some wierd with the electrics......

???
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 11th, 2005, 1:15pm
Now it did it again.. died, that is..

Hmm.. This is getting creepy.. I disconnected the negative conn to the battery again.. hopefully that will do the trick this time as well..


Edit

And it started again after a while.. Took it to work, and it started without any problems when I was done.

I'm starting to suspect there's a hot start problem now..
Either that or something is really weird with the electronics..

Edit2:

I suspected it could be the problem with too high fuel pressure.. But this morning, after being left alone all night, it failed to start.. Disconnected the battery for 50 mins.. Reconnected.. Started without any problems.

I think this rules out the fuel pressure regulator.

Now i'm pretty certain it must be an electrical failure somewhere..
Anyone got a clue?
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 13th, 2005, 4:18pm
Been searching the forum a bit more now, and I'm starting to suspect a problem with the PATS.

Summary so far:

  • Engine turns every time, but there is a 50/50 chance for it to start or not. (Edit: if it doesn't start on first attempt, it doesn't until I do a full reset of all the electrical systems.)
  • Just had a new battery fitted.
  • Alternator warning comes on before cranking the engine, and turns off when (if) it starts.
  • Battery voltage seem fine.
  • I do have the battery cover fitted, and the fuse boxes seems dry.
  • When the car doesn't start, it ALWAYS helps disconnecting the battery for 40-50 mins and reconnect. It will then start on first attempt.
  • The problem doesn't seem to have anything to do with how long the car has been left alone, or how hot the engine is. It seems to be completely random.
  • It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with the weather (rainy/dry).
  • Needles aren't flicking (except when the battery has been disconnected ofcourse).



Any tips?
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by Snoopy on Nov 13th, 2005, 4:31pm
does the red PATS LED  flash a code when it does NOT start?
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 13th, 2005, 4:39pm
No, but it never has flashed anything since I bought the car. The LED is probably dead or something.
I'm going to have a look at the LED asap.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 13th, 2005, 4:44pm
hi there

the PATS led is under the dash. what you see is just a cover.

i'd go back to the relays. try swapping the heated screen relay for the starter one. see if that works.
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 13th, 2005, 4:47pm
Okay, thanks. Will try that
Title: Re: Dead Scorp.. (Won't start)
Post by kskjon on Nov 22nd, 2005, 9:45pm
The problem has seemed to disappear by itself..  ???

It is probably waiting for a truly critical moment before it re-occours  ;)


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