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        General >> Problems >> 24v Non Starter - still!
        
(Message started by: Dave on Nov 23^rd, 2005, 3:21pm)

Title: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 23^rd, 2005, 3:21pm

Hi all,

We have a big problem with my brothers car, it is a 1996 Scorpio Ultima 24v.

To cut a long story short, it refused to start after being left for a week in early September. It eventually ran again after fitting a new battery and ECU and fuel pump relays. After running for a few minutes it cut out again and would not start. We got it running again by disconnecting and reconnecting the battery. It did this once more then ran fine for 2 weeks.
It was then left sitting for 6 days then would not start again!

This was 7 weeks ago now and we are running out of ideas! It seems to lack spark but fuel is getting through.

Parts replaced include:

-battery
-fuel pump relay
-ECU relay
-crankshaft sensor
-EI module - changed for 2nd hand part
-EDIS module - changed for 2nd hand part

Parts checked include:

-camshaft sensor
-wiring between heads
-ECU sent away for testing - no fault
-fuel pump cut off switch checked
-PATS LED flashing no faults - fuses removed to "reset" unit but no change
-fuse boxes checked for moisture - non found

The car has had 2 OBD scans which show no faults. It sounds fine and turns over strongly but makes absolutely no attempt to start. We have tried starting in Park and Neutral but no difference. Everything else seems to be working i.e. lights, windows, radio etc.

The only thing I can think to check is the multiplugs under the power steering reservoir. This has obviously had a leak at some point as one of the plugs is filthy - any thoughts on this?

One other point - the car had an aftermarket alarm and immobiliser which was removed last December. The car has behaved fine since then but worth a mention?

Absolutely ANY ideas would be REALLY REALLY appreciated! We adore this car but are running out of options!

Many thanks indeed for any help.

Dave's brother,
Ben

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by ricky on Nov 23^rd, 2005, 4:09pm

remove a plug and check for spark or wet plug, if no spark check wiring from multiplug ricky

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 23^rd, 2005, 4:28pm

Hi Ricky,

checked this - voltage seems to be getting this far but no spark. Do you think the "coil pack" could be at fault? It is a replacement but only for a 2nd hand part - new was a bit pricey.

Cheers

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Highlander on Nov 23^rd, 2005, 5:37pm

Bad earth?
Ive had that before, turned the engine but wouldnt start.
I used a single jump lead connected from the block to the battery (-ve) very carefully

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 23^rd, 2005, 6:42pm

Well looks like you are going to have to track down this with a volt meter, have you got the values to test everything?
The earth thing is worth ago as highlander said.

When I had Martin's car I got it started by replacing the PATS system with one from another car but after I stopped it, it went dead again so I gave up & broke it. It had the same fault as yours.

You any good with a volt meter?
Also have you followed the fault finding page?

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 24^th, 2005, 9:38am

Hi Chaps,

many thanks for the replies.

Stuart - will try this as soon as it stops raining, not thought to try that.

Dave - have been through the fault finding page and tried everything suggested.
Interesting suggestion about the PATS - the mechanic suggested that but the light seems ok, maybe this means nothing and it is that?! How would I go about replacing the PATS to try this out?
I have a multimeter and am not too bad with it but do not have a list of value as such, any pointers here would be great.

Thanks for the help - really am grateful :)

Dave's bro,
Ben

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 25^th, 2005, 11:21am

Ok had another play - also spoken to the ford Technical helpline!

Basically, it is not sparking. 12v is getting to the coil and the other 3 pins of the plug that goes to the coil are getting a switched current when cranking the engine. BUT it is not sparking.

I have checked the primary and secondary circuits of the coild using resistance but they seem to be ok, apparently this does not neccessarily mean that the coil is performing ok under load.

Any thoughts?

Ta

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 25^th, 2005, 12:24pm

hi dave/ben?

how do you know it's not sparking? have you taken a plug out and earthed it to the block? BE VERY CAREFUL DOING THIS!!!

i still think it's the PATS. on the wife's fiesta, we had a spark, but it wouldn't start until the we reset the PATS.

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 25^th, 2005, 1:49pm

Hi Andrew,

to check the spark I took a plug out and earthed it to the block as described. The mechanic also found that there was no spark coming through the leads.

Have tried taking the PATS fuses out a few times now, no difference made ??? Think Howie is leaning towards PATS too if Martin's car is anything to go by. Is there anything we can do about this?

David (my brother) seems to be getting a bit tired of it, even talking about breaking it which would totally gut me. He seems to be looking at getting about £1800 for all the bits, any thoughts?

Cheers,

Ben

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 25^th, 2005, 3:15pm

hi ben

you would hate to scrap it for this, but then again, you need a car that will start.

re the 'other alarm'. can you follow the wires back and totally remove them? or has this been done?

re the crankshaft sensor. was this a new one?

on the sparkplug test, were all the plugs/leads checked?

have you tried starting in gear (all gear positions)? CAREFULL!

check the relays again for burning, etc. pull all fuses out one by one (clutching at straws)

only other thing i can think off is trying to jump start it, even with the new battery fitted.... you never know!

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 25^th, 2005, 3:32pm

Hi Andrew,

the alarm was removed by a "proper" place who did a pretty good job as far as I can see but I intend to have a proper look again to make sure all joints are sound.

The crankshaft sensor was new from Ford.

Don't think I have checked all plugs and leads, but most of them.

Don't think we have tried starting it in gear actually, tried it in Park and Neutral. Worth trying in Drive do you think? Will check with David on that.

Have looked at all fuses and relays and they look fine sadly, have also tried jump starting from slave batteries and other cars!

Only things I can think left to check are:

-start it in gear
-check old alarm wiring
-try another coil pack

Any other ideas welcomed ;)

Thanks

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Baz on Nov 25^th, 2005, 8:16pm

Dave....I would lean towards the old wiring too. I used to have a Sierra Ghia with an aftermarket alarm on it which I had removed when I bought the car and fitted a new one of my own.. One day wife and me were half way down to Birmingham on the M6 when it cut out. Pulled over to the hard shoulder, and the car restarted again. It ran again for ages and then cut out again. This time it didn't refire so I called the RAC. The guy towed us to the nearest garage and he spent 4 hours working on it! He found that I hadn't actually removed all the wiring from the old system and it was the wiring for the imobiliser that was making and breaking. He put a new bit of wire in and it ran for 18 months till I part exed it for my Scorpio 4x4!

May be that simple??

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 26^th, 2005, 2:19pm

Thanks Baz - good to hear that it can happen! I think I need to have a reet good poke around where the old wiring is/was. At least that may explain why there are no fault codes....

Cheers mate :)

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by charlie_nutmeg on Nov 26^th, 2005, 3:13pm

Hi Dave, I changed a leaking heater matrix on my old 92 2L estate; stupidly I didn’t disconnect the battery before I removed the dash. Somehow I upset the Cobra after market Alarm Immobiliser. Similar symptoms to yours. I had to call out an Alarm specialist who put another positive feed into the immobiliser box under the dash. The car now started but the alarm was temperamental for about two weeks after, so the only thing I can think of was water got into the immobiliser’s brain.
Everything seemed to work fine with all the electrics but as the immobiliser was so intricate into the cars ignition system nothing I tried would actually start the car. I would check to see if the immobiliser has been properly removed and not just partly bypassed.

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 26^th, 2005, 6:35pm

Thanks Charlie :)

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 27^th, 2005, 11:21pm

Any Luck ???

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 28^th, 2005, 10:27am

Hi Dave,

tried starting it in gear and it just clicks which I assume is good?!

Tried a lead from battery negative to engine block - no difference.

Got another coil pack sorted all being well :)

Am going to go out later on, weather permitting, and have a really good look at the wiring where the old alarm was removed.

Though, this morning, when I put the ignition on and moved the gear lever, the open door warning went off as soon as the lever left Park but no door was open! Also the interior lights don't work! This fault occurred when the alarm was taken out - turned out the guy that did it had not made a good connection on a wire. Sounds like it may have gone again so hopefully this may be the fault with another connection?! Definitely want to try another coil too.

Hoping to do some investigating this afternoon, weather permitting ::)

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Danny_R on Nov 28^th, 2005, 1:48pm

Hi Dave,

I wouldn’t give up on it just yet. The problem is probably a very simple one and you will find it. Apart from this starting problem you have a good running car right?

I go with the others on checking the wires where the alarm was spliced in. So many of these 'Professional' alarm fitters just splice where ever they can using nothing more than scotch locks. Check all the wiring and pay particular attention to the little black wire going to the negative terminal on the battery. This is the PATS cable and the car will NOT start without a good connection. Check all the earths on the engine again using a meter, hold the black to the negative terminal and start touching unpainted surfaces around the engine bay with the positive. If you notice you have voltage at one particular location then you have a leak somewhere which is normally a bad earth strap.

You do not mention anything about the actual fuel pump in the tank. Have you had this checked or replaced? Is fuel getting to the fuel rail? There's normally a pressure release valve on the rail that you could push to check if there's pressure. You could also disconnect the fuel line and have someone turn the ignition on and off quickly to see if the pump is working.

Lastly do you get a spark on any of the plugs? I'm not 100% certain on this one but I’m wondering if the car thought the TPS was in WOT mode, would this disable sparks to the plugs from sparking? maybe the Throttle Positioning Sensor could be at fault :-/ Like I say I’m not 100% certain on this one.

I'm clutching at straws I know but these would be the things I’d be checking ;)

Kind Regards

Danny_R

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 28^th, 2005, 1:54pm

Cheers Danny - the more input, the better :)

Like you say it is a great car, and I agree I bet it is something stupid and small, its just finding it.

Would you believe it the car is under nearly 3 inches of snow now!! As soon as possible I am going to go out and have another good go at it. Spent an hour on it last Friday with my multimeter and found the basic wiring circuits look ok which is great, not happy about this old alarm business though. Not happy about the coil but hope to have sorted another with the help of a kind member on here ;)

None of the plugs are sparking as far as I know. I will have a look at this TPS sensor, it is a good idea. Fuel seems to be getting through ok i.e. plugs wet.

Cheers pal :D

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by charlie_nutmeg on Nov 28^th, 2005, 2:45pm

Dave just another point, does your car have a Ford Immobiliser as standard? If so, the aftermarket Alarm would have been wired into it. Also I don’t trust the blue plastic crimp things these car alarm guys use. Soldering Iron and tape.

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 28^th, 2005, 4:12pm

Charlie - it still has the normal Ford alarm and immobiliser, been snowing most of the day here :o but tomorrow I am gonna put the gazebo up over it and work on it regardless. Had to put the battery on charge too so that will be done by tomorrow ::)

Got the soldering iron at the ready 8)

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 28^th, 2005, 9:27pm

dave

that's a good point made by danny, the tps. if i remember correctly, a member's car (eddie?) wouldn't start because of dodgy wiring at the tps.

good luck

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 30^th, 2005, 11:02am

Thanks Andrew - will check that

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 30^th, 2005, 1:40pm

Latest update on the saga!

I have tried another coil pack, still wouldn't go. Not all bad as it definitely rules that out as I got it from a trusted source (thanks Dave (Snoopy)). I have spent ages on it with a multimeter, spent quite a while on the phone to Ford Technical support (£1 per min) and as far as I can tell it now comes down to either a bad earth or the old alarm wiring, every part of the actual car I test comes back ok.

Spent a while looking at the wiring where the old alarm control unit was and some bits don't look great so will try re-soldering.

While I was playing about I found a loose wire, fixed that and the interior lights started working! Found a brown wire that seems to be coming from the engine bay which looks to have broken off/come away from where it should be - need to find where that beggar goes I think! Any ideas?

Other things to check include the WOT relay and TPS wiring.

Gonna get me coffee then off I jolly well. Oh for a garage big enough to get this thing in ;D

Title: Re: 24v Non Starter - still!
Post by Dave on Nov 30^th, 2005, 3:38pm

Another update. Just spent an hour on it and found something that I hope is of interest.

Am in the process of exposing and re-soldering/covering joints from where the old alarm was. Needed a change of scenery so went to the passenger side footwell for a gander.

Where the main loom (I assume thats what it is) comes in through the bulkhead (before it gets to the ECU etc) it makes a sharpish turn towards the n/s. At this point it appears that 3 or 4 wires have, at the very least, lost their insulation. I can't see properly until I take the wrapping off that section completely but it looks like 1 or 2 may have actually broken, not sure yet, but possible.

I will repair this asap but for now, any thoughts? The wires look like they are orange/black, green/black, and yellow /black with a possible solid green one. Hands were a bit cold to delve further ::)

Thanks