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        General >> Problems >> Plugs and leads?
        
(Message started by: Dave on Dec 23^rd, 2005, 10:42am)

Title: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 23^rd, 2005, 10:42am

Morning all,

update on my 24v that won't start. I have tried a new WOT relay, no difference. New coil pack, no difference. New ignition barrel, only difference being that PATS didn't recognise the key and wouldn't turn over at all.

If I have done my testing right (as described by the Ford Technical Support helpline) then I am getting 12v to the coil and the correct switched voltage. That would suggest the coil pack (EI module) but I have one from a trusted source.

I have also checked and re-made all the old alarm connections that I can find.

SURELY it can't just be plugs and/or leads? The plugs have only done 4000 miles. Don't know about the leads, but the car was running great before it just refused to fire up :-/

Any ideas chaps?

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Snoopy on Dec 23^rd, 2005, 9:26pm

Crankcase position Sensor ??????????

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Highlander on Dec 23^rd, 2005, 10:39pm

Hi Dave, did you try that ignition barrel with the old key close by so the Pats worked?

What have you all tried so far??

Theres been a few 24v non starters recently and Ive lost track of whos is whos :-/

Is the engine block getting a good earth?

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 24^th, 2005, 5:30pm

Hi guys,

changed the crank sensor fairly early on - no change!

Stuart - I tried the key right next to the barrel, do I need to hold it next to the actual PATS unit? I didn't try for that long as it was a bit wet!

I tried a jump lead from the engine to battery negative but it made no difference, maybe I need to experiment a bit more with that, that would make sense.....

So far we have tried:
- new battery
- fuel pump relay
- ecu relay
- crank sensor
- EI module (coil pack)
- EDIS
- WOT relay
- various wiring repaired/replaced
- camshaft sensor checked/cleaned
- ECU tested
- fuel pump cut off switch checked
- PATS shows no fault
- fuse boxes ok
- 2 obd scans show no fault

Phew, that tired me just writing it all ;D

Its either got to be something annoyingly simple or major.

Any further ideas?

Cheers chaps

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Highlander on Dec 24^th, 2005, 6:54pm

on 12/24/05 at 17:30:47, Dave wrote:

Its either got to be something annoyingly simple or major.

Is there petrol in it? ;D

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 24^th, 2005, 6:55pm

;D 47.8 litres ;)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Highlander on Dec 24^th, 2005, 6:57pm

So its turning over but wont fire at all?

Are you getting a spark at the plugs?
Petrol getting through ok?

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 24^th, 2005, 7:25pm

Turning over just fine, completely normal. Mechanic that looked at it says it is injecting as the plugs are wet.

No spark at any plugs!

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 24^th, 2005, 11:19pm

Sounds like a nightmare this????

Here is a few for you:

Check for 12V at pin 4 on the coil pack & also at pin 8 on the Eddis module with the ignition on.
Check pin 9 is earthed on module & that you have a circuit from pin 10 (module) to pin 1 (coilpack), pin 11 to pin 2 & 12 to 3

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Highlander on Dec 25^th, 2005, 1:25am

Did it just stop suddenly of was it over time?

Was anything done to the car prior to it happening?

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by scorpio_man on Dec 25^th, 2005, 8:41am

hi dave

i still think it could be a PATS problem. how much would it cost to fmd re-program the unit? maybe ask for a discount if it doesn't work :-/ say 50% off.

hth

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 28^th, 2005, 10:29am

Hi Chaps,

sorry for delay in replying.

Thanks for that info Dave, battery on charge (again) so will check the EDIS asap.

Stuart - it refused to start after standing for 1 week while we were away. We got it going with a new battery and fuel pump relay as that was thought to be suspect (bit too warm). It then ran fine for a short while before cutting out again. Disconnecting and reconnecting the battery a few times got it going again and it ran great for about 10 days before it was stood for 5 days again, then it wouldn't start and hasn't run since.

Before all this it had just had an oil/filter change (done by us at home) which went fine, no running problems at all, its always been very good.

EDIT to add we also cleaned the throttle body/butterfly valves but car ran fine after this.

Andrew - thanks for that. I have tried another key/barrel from Stuart which set off an error code. I also replaced every single fuse in the boxes and swapped some relays the other day which made no difference. I have to question whether I can go through the cost of transporting it to an FMD and them doing the PATS etc it it may not work... :(

Will check the EDIS values and see what we get.

Many thanks guys ;)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 28^th, 2005, 8:32pm

Ok bit more of an update, I think I have done these tests correctly but am going to repeat tomorrow to make sure!

There IS 12v getting to the coil.

There IS 12v at pin 8 on the EDIS module.

Pin 9 of the EDIS module should be earthed - what would this show? Think it may have been about 1.2v (if I was testing the right pin :-X)

Re the circuits this is the bit I want to recheck but as far as I can see today all these are intact and showing 12v (between coil pack and EDIS), as I say I will recheck this tomorrow.

What does all this mean? ???

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 28^th, 2005, 10:50pm

O.K
Pin 9 should be a circuit to the car chassis (earthed) also pin 7 by the way. 1.2V ???

Pin 10 to 1 should be a circuit as in connected to each other, so zero or almost zero resistence.

I was going to talk you through testing everything but thinking about it do this.

Pin 1 on the eddis is the PIP signal & pin 3 is the Saw signal.

If you stop the saw signal to the module from the ECU it should put the Eddis into limp home mode & cause it to give a spark at the plugs if it is O.K.

The engine will not start but the plugs should spark.

If they do it is a ECU/ PATS problem.

If not it's something Eddis which we can test for ;)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 28^th, 2005, 10:58pm

Actually thinking about it the engine may fire up as you have been trying to start it, any fuel in the system will be used up then it should die as the injectors won't be running.

Be prepared for this?

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 29^th, 2005, 9:42am

Many thanks Dave, it is -4 here but I have got up full of enthusiasm again so am on the way out to it, might have got the door open by lunchtime ;D

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 29^th, 2005, 11:31am

Right, I have done the tests properly this time ::)

12v is getting to the coil.

12v is present at pin 8 on the edis module.

The circuits from pin 10,11 and 12 on the module plug to pin 1,2 and 3 on the coil pack respectively are showing almost no resistance.

Pin 9 on the edis module is earthed.

Pin 7 on the edis module - there is no wire to pin 7 on the plug so no connection to the actual module.

On to the next part - I need to stop the saw signal from pin 3, i.e. I need to disconnect the wire from the actual plug?

Will rope in a willing assistant to do this asap.

Thanks Dave, feel like I am doing something useful to getting her back on the road.

:)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 29^th, 2005, 8:56pm

Sounds O.K so far ;)
Pin 7 don't worry about it some Ford Edis systems use it as a screen earth for the crank sensor but if I remember correctly the Scorp don't.

Yeah if you disconnect pin 3 some how. I would dismantle the plug as I don't like cutting cables that are important then reconnecting them ;D

Works like this

Pin 1 sends a PIP signal to the ECU, ECU uses that to run the engine then calculates a setting for the spark & sends it back to pin 3 (saw signal)
If you stop the ECU sending a signal back, the edis will go to default 10 degrees & carry on working by itself with out the ECU at all.
You can then test the edis system reguardless of PATS or anything else.

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Dec 30^th, 2005, 10:24am

Brilliant Dave, will try this as soon as it stops throwing it down. Snow? Think it snowed for about 30 seconds then the rain started ;D

By the way, you have a PM ;)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Jan 6^th, 2006, 2:17pm

Gents!!

a big update on my car!! Brother Ben got it going late yesterday afternoon!!!!! After about 14 weeks sitting in the freezing weather, it runs!!!!!

Basically, he tried to start it on Monday after putting back together some of the old alarm wiring etc, and it wouldn't go - no change.

We then got a set of second hand spark plugs as they have been niggling Ben for a while. We borrowed a set of plug leads to try aswell. He also got a spare ECU temp sensor just to try as it was very cheap. When putting the coil pack back on some dodgy looking wiring was found under where to top radiator hose runs.

Sooo he whipped this off and repaired some more broken insulation as well as rewiring what we think is an earth point or surpressor for the ignition system. At this point he was going to disconnect pin 3 on the edis module plug to try the tests that you kindly described but thought he might as well turn it over again.

This took us to yesterday afternoon - time for the test. First turn of the key - nothing. Second turn - a cough! :o Third turn - a splutter!!! Fourth turn - it sprang into life!!!! :) :) :)

Had it running on the drive for about an hour and it ran absolutely great, need to replace the inlet manifold gaskets are there is a bit of an air leak and check the EGR system as I don't think it went back quite properly but it runs sooo well to say it has been sitting all through winter :D

Ran it again this morning, 1st turn of the key and it fired and ran fine again 8-)

Am so pleased!

Now to replace/check the inlet manifold gaskets and egr system then MOT! (hopefully ;D)

Big thanks must go to all who have helped with this problem - I really hope it is sorted now!

Particular thanks must go to the following:

Barrie for coming all the way from near Blackpool (in a 24v and refusing petrol money) to do an OBD scan - hughly appreciated mate :)

Dave (howiedintheplace) for not only all the cheap parts he has sent but the invaluable advice on testing and repair ;)

Stuart (Highlander) and Dave (Snoopy) for helping out with parts and suggestions :)

Not forgetting Eric, Steve, Andrew (scorpio man), Martin, Baz........ serious thanks to all of you :D

Dave and Ben ;)

PS Have also started new post with this info ;)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Simmo on Jan 6^th, 2006, 6:54pm

Great news Dave, hope all goes well from now on.

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 6^th, 2006, 7:27pm

Oh good another Scorp back on the road ;D

Sounds like the crank sensor wiring may have been the problem to me :)

Good one 8)

Title: Re: Plugs and leads?
Post by Dave on Jan 7^th, 2006, 3:13pm

Cheers guys :)