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        General >> Problems >> Autobox
        
(Message started by: tintin on Mar 13^th, 2006, 11:00pm)

Title: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 13^th, 2006, 11:00pm

Hi all, second problem with my new 24v cossie (the leak turned out to be the thermostat pipe ballooning, all fixed).

Autobox 3-5 seconds engaging D, and quite noisy in low gears (sounds like a jet). However, drives fine, but once done 30mins+ journey, then stops, has trouble engaging D (didnt do it at all last time, had to put it in 1). Then it judders when pulling away, no power until 20mph+ then all is back to normal.

Had automatic expert (Automotive Automatics) look at it last week, he said whining on take off is not major problem, fluid is ok, get it in for a service £130+vat

Time to start saving for a new box? Any tips on reasonable prices? Should i take it off the road until fixed??

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by mr._floppy on Mar 14^th, 2006, 1:05am

I'd look out the black tie, it sounds rather terminal :-/

Whining and a long delay on engaging Drive indicates

worn out internal components, something a service won't

really fix. Start saving now.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Highlander on Mar 14^th, 2006, 5:27am

An oil and filter change seems to have helped a lot of people with various problems, try that first, you might be lucky.

Try and get an OBD scan done to see what problems it shows, might just be a solenoid needing replaced

If you need another box i'd try a second hand one first as I couldnt justify £800 worth of new gearbox in a £2000 car..

have a look on ebay, theres the odd one comes up or if your'e really keen buy a whole car :)

An engine damaged 24v Ultima sold last night for £123 !! you'd get a reasonable box hopefully and make some money back on the parts :)

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by leftofcentre on Mar 14^th, 2006, 11:18am

But then theres the fitting! :(

A tad beyond the home mechanics capabilities.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 14^th, 2006, 12:14pm

May not be good I'm afraid. Mine has no power in 2nd gear and I lost D a couple of months ago, I to have to manualy select 2 then into D when it engages. I also have the turbine noise. Funny thing is, when it is cold and on start up, it behaves fine, then 20 mins later it starts to go bad. An OBD revealed an incorrect ratio in second, so thats that screwed then and I am saving up to get the box done. This is where it gets interesting for me. My local guy is ex-FORDS and is quite at home installing gear boxes (not re-build or recon, just fitting) and has quoted me £150 if I want to find one myself. He was quoted £750+VAT from his contact at Fords for a complete new box and £750 all in from is box specialist for a full recon/fluid/filter job. If that is any use to you.
Other than that, as above, get an OBD done ASAP then make your decisions based on that.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 14^th, 2006, 4:59pm

hmm, thats what i thought, sounds similar to mine. i am going up to the Scottish Meet this weekend hopefully, might be able to get a scan done there?

£750 + VAT would be fine by me, i got the car on the cheap (thought it was the leak he was worried about, the g/box wasnt playing up or making noise when i collected it!!) so happy to plough a bit of money into the g/box. love the car, and otherwise everything works!!would he do mine for me if i ask nicely?

is it worth £150 to service it now, or wait until the scan?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 14^th, 2006, 5:49pm

ps just drove home, engaged after 3 secs (not snowing now!!), drove fine up and down gears no probs, got home, wouldnt go into drive, but quick into 2, then also quick into D

also, going around a mini roundabout at 15mph funny judder from rear end again??

methinks i bought a dog, woof woof :-[

could not having a cover under the engine bay be causing this? dirty sensors etc? apologies for ignorance !!

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by david_molloy on Mar 14^th, 2006, 5:55pm

Sounds to me that better putting £150 towards replacement is best option.
Think it's a bit late in day for servicing.
What does complete new box cover - is converter included?
david

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 14^th, 2006, 6:59pm

Get a scan because it will also throw up anything else that you may have missed. My ford guy pretty much said dont bother with a filter and fluid change as there is definatley more going on there that a change out will not fix. Keep the £150 for a box job my freind :)
£750 for the lot I beleive, of coarse could change suddenly when I go to get it done ;) As they suck air through teeth and so on... ::)

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by mr._floppy on Mar 15^th, 2006, 12:15am

I'm all for a filter and fluid change for a box that is working OK as it may prolong the life of the box for a few extra thousand miles.

Perusing a US Ford Taurus site recently and it seems it's very common to change filter and ATF every 30 K, whether this is part of Ford's Service recommendations I don't really know.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 15^th, 2006, 7:38am

Makes sense considering the amount of work it does and the temp it gets up to, most scorps have probably never seen a change until they fail.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 15^th, 2006, 8:19am

yep mine is 1995, 96k on the clock, FSH from Ford, hahahahaha

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 20^th, 2006, 8:53am

ok, so i have had a scan on the car at the scottish meet (thnks all), one lambda sensor and MAF (cleaned it there and then). No errors on the gearbox.

Anyone any ideas as to why it wont re-engage drive after 20mins driving?? there is a bad judder/grind from the back end when you do get it into gear when you load the power on, usually at lower gears, but also when hard accelerating midrange.

Also, anyone have a good 2nd hand g/box for a cossie? the general consensus at the meet was that it was mechanical (once the MAF was cleaned), and that a new box was going to be necessary.

thnks all

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by sector-9 on Mar 21^st, 2006, 11:49pm

Has anybody here ever dismantled an auto gearbox? I did take a Ford C3 'Bordeaux' gearbox apart once and it wasn't that bad (though I should point out I never put it back together - I only bought it for £15 just so I could take it to bits and see how it worked).

Basically you've got the torque converter, an oil pump, a few sets of planetry gears in individual housings, brake bands and hydraulically operated clutches (wet multi-plate type like in a motorbike). On top of that you've got a couple of hydraulic servos to apply the brake bands. The hydraulic servos and clutches were controlled by the valve block (itself controlled by the gear selector lever); though on the new gearboxes the valve block would be replaced by solenoid operated valves.

Of the above, the torque converter doesn't generally cause trouble, neither do the planetry gear sets. The brake bands and clutch friction plates wear out (burning & contaminating the ATF fluid), and the solenoid valves can stick, though bad electrical connections are more likely. Insufficient hydraulic pressure due to worn out pump, leaking seals, low fluid level or blockages/restrictions will cause all sorts of problems from delays changing gears to complete loss of drive.

Why am I telling you all this? Well if you've got an original Haynes manual for the Sierra or Granada this shows a cutaway view of the C3 gearbox (and I think the A4LD) - it won't turn you into an auto box expert but if you've replaced your broken transmission and still got the old one then it might persuade you to open it up and find out what exactly went wrong with it. After all, if you understand how something works and why it's much easier to diagnose problems!

Darren

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Snoopy on Mar 22^nd, 2006, 9:01am

There is a FULL gearbox manual on the main site if ever you should need it !
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/autotrans.htm

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by mr._floppy on Mar 22^nd, 2006, 12:18pm

I don't know, Auto gearboxes are fairly complex units, with a combination of Electrical, Hydraulic and Mechanical technologies , even basic fluid and filter changes are probably best left to the experts.

Planetary Gears ?
Is that the reason that autoboxes don't have that typical manual box whining noise when in reverse ?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by geraghtyg on Mar 22^nd, 2006, 6:38pm

As far as I know, 2 nd gear on the Scorpio (and I assume all autos) is 2nd gear reversed which is why it's quiet and also why you could technically go over 70mph in reverse :o

Correect me if I'm wrong though

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 24^th, 2006, 9:59am

hmm, gonna stick with an autobox specialist for this one,

[b][/b]ANYONE GOT A GOOD BOX FOR A 1995 COSSIE???

Desperate times now, rapid decline, quite often wont engage D now, and sometimes drops 1st when coming up to a junction :-[

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 27^th, 2006, 8:57pm

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4625847728&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUK%3A1&rd=1

what do you think, he wants £150 for the box? risk it or just get mine rebuit?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Highlander on Mar 27^th, 2006, 9:57pm

Where are you located?
I have one I bought for a spare and never used.
I'm near Edinburgh

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 27^th, 2006, 10:02pm

Depends on miles and any history that it may come with. If He has no idea, you dont buy ;) I need a new box, seen loads for £130-£160 but the guys who are selling them have no idea of milage or if any work has been done on them. Its a lucky dip. You may get one that is just as bad as the one you gut out, or it may have just came out of a scorp that has just had a full recon, one month before the main lump went bang. Who knows?!?! I've decided not to take the chance.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 27^th, 2006, 10:09pm

Highlander, i pm'd you but didnt get a reply, would be happy to take a box off you rather than a stranger. car is sitting waiting to go into automotive automatics (leith walk), so sooner the better.

any history on the box? how much you after?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by sector-9 on Mar 27^th, 2006, 10:14pm

£150 sounds expensive for a s/hand box with no guarantee and it's off an 11yr old car. Personally I'd expect the whole car for that much (less actually unless it had any MOT) - after all the scrapyard will only offer £20...

FWIW my 1995 TD Scop cost £250 with tax and MOT!

Darren

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Highlander on Mar 28^th, 2006, 8:15am

Its all about supply and demand Darren, yes you seem to have managed to obtain a bargain there, they do come up now and again but try and source a second hand box cheaply when you really need one..

I buy cheap Scorpios purely for spares as its the cheapest option, i have paid out £100 for a second hand box when i needed one and i have also bought an immaculate 24v ultima which only needed cats for £250..

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Highlander on Mar 28^th, 2006, 10:46am

PM Sent :)

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 29^th, 2006, 6:47am

Well, my box is finaly starting to give up on drive. A couple of times in the last few days it wont select at all from standstill and I have to rev it (not pretty). So thats 3 months (& 5k) from D getting twitchy to imenent failure. Of coarse, I dont have the money for a proper job so I am having to go back everything I have said previous and get a second hand box. Got one on offer from a member here, so I know it runs, or a 71K one from a breaker with a months warrenty.
God, I hate having my hand forced. >:( :-[

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 29^th, 2006, 8:19am

yep, mine went from no problems when i picked it up two months ago, to no drive in lower gears!! note to all, when you get a new scorpio, 1st thing to do is get the g/box checked and serviced !!

highlander has sorted me out, the car is now in the garage, should be back to me for the end of the week

:D

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 29^th, 2006, 8:36am

Good luck mate, hope it all works out for you. How much are the garage taking off you for the work?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 29^th, 2006, 3:38pm

they muttered £250 + oil/filter, i will let you know when the bill comes in !!

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Highlander on Mar 29^th, 2006, 4:19pm

Did they find anything up with the old box?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Mar 29^th, 2006, 7:01pm

hope they do a good job and find the origonal problem. Let us know how you get on :). I've went down the trusted member route and picking it up on sat for fitting on tue, high milage but I know it works. For fitting, 4 - 5 hours I've been told with new filter/pan/gasket's/fluid. all in just over £200 by ex-fords.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Mar 30^th, 2006, 9:29am

update : garage says the box took 2l of oil, which it didnt need when they checked it 1 month ago, but no obvious sign of leak. selecting drive is definately gone, they are going to take the sump pan of the spare box, and if thats good do a swap.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Dave2302 on Apr 3^rd, 2006, 4:19pm

I am an auto trans specialist, recently retired. The delay is most usually caused by the forward clutch being broken (technical term for worn out ). After a while all the busted bits will block the filter preventing any further drive. A whine in first gear is due to wear in the low gearset and whilst these can happily whine away for years they dont whine when they are o.k. !!. Get your transmission rebuilt by a reputable specialsit my friend and dont bother wasting money on quick fixes. Modern auto gearboxes are far too complicated these days for home repairs and are not comparable to the old C3 's of yesteryear. For a start your torque converter will need replacing as well as your gearbox because a) it will be full of bits of broken clutch and gearset and b) there is a lock up clutch type lined plate inside it which will be just as worn out as the rest of the clutches within the auto box unit. I hope this advice is of some help to you and if you let me know your area I may know of a reputable transmission builder who wont rip you off. Caveat emptor as the Romans used to say !! And good luck with the car in general , Regards Dave

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Apr 4^th, 2006, 11:09am

cheers Dave,

i have picked up a 2nd hand box for a few pennies from Highlander, and left the car and extra box with Automotive Automatics in Edinburgh, with instructions to repair or replace as they see fit. they are taking their time on it (beaten to the ramp by a Maserati) but will let everyone know how it all pans out when i get it back (eventually....)

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Apr 4^th, 2006, 12:35pm

Cool! Mine goes in today, thanks to Paulscorp :)

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by mr._floppy on Apr 4^th, 2006, 3:45pm

I believe that the ATF is prewarmed via a section of the main engine Rad.

So it's entirely possible that the ATF can be contaminated by engine coolant ( thus rapidly ruining the autobox ) should the main rad develop a leak.
So, if you're losing coolant and can't see where it's leaking, then ( if you ain't got enough autobox woes to worry about :-X ) it could be secretly and merrily mixing with the red stuff ???

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Apr 6^th, 2006, 9:13am

Got it back last night and it runs great :D
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1144308257
BTW, my mechanic has kept a very large number of scorps free of autobox problems well past 200K by advising that oil, filters etc should be done every 50K

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Apr 6^th, 2006, 9:38am

good news !!!

mine is still in the garage waiting patiently, i have been tutting and mentioning reduced labour costs ;D

they have checked my spare box and it looks fine, so at least thats one less worry......

there are a lot of boxes failing at the moment, wonder if there is a Spring Gremlin loose? i know they should last, but a more comprehensive fault-diagnosis/description of workings might be useful on the site, not sure if anyone can come up with one?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Highlander on Apr 11^th, 2006, 12:37am

Of course its fine, it came from a reputable seller ;)

you back on the road yet?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Apr 11^th, 2006, 11:00am

back on the road, all running well thanks, see my other post about my battery disconnect/radio code.....

engine seems a bit rougher, is this normal after a battery disconnect, as it all reprogrammes?

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Apr 11^th, 2006, 11:05am

on 04/11/06 at 11:00:36, tintin wrote:

engine seems a bit rougher, is this normal after a battery disconnect, as it all reprogrammes?

Nah, thats just because you dont have a noisey gear box now, you can actualy hear the engine ;D ;)
After a long disconnect, your computer resets to learn mode and throws out all of it previous settings. It then goes in to learn mode until it susses out how your engine should run again. Should settle down.

Title: Re: Autobox
Post by tintin on Apr 11^th, 2006, 11:08am

}{ }{

it certainly nips along now...... ;D

always had a slightly rough idle (800rpm) think it may be the power steering reservoir leaking? one lambda is out as well.....