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        General >> Problems >> Cooling system
        
(Message started by: jonnycab on Mar 15^th, 2006, 12:03am)

Title: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 15^th, 2006, 12:03am

Hi all, newbie here. I have a similar problem to Christopher_Dean. I have a 98 facelift 2.3 Ultima.
Temp guage reads normal . All of a sudden it drops into the blue & then goes back up to the middle again, then goes back to the blue again & then back up again. It keeps doing this over & over. When I turn the heater on high. I get a sudden blast of hot air then it will gradually get cold. So I open the bonnet and feel the heater matrix outlet pipe and it feels tepid, but the inlet pipe is baking. The bottom rad hose is also tepid and the pipe from it to to expansion tank is cold.
I have a new thermostat (they've been known to be faulty from new). Just put a new water pump in. I have flushed the heater matrix backwards & forwards, flushed the rad backwards and forwards, and flushed the engine both ways as well.
I can't find a leak & the water doesn't go down but there doesn't seem to be that much pressure (pipes squeeze easily).
I previously owned a 95 Ultima & never had this kind of problem.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by mr_d on Mar 15^th, 2006, 7:00pm

Hi there i have the same problem with mine. Ive got 2.3 estate 97. Done the same as you new water pump, thermostat, temp sender. Got no preasure in hose pipes, over filled coolant and got preasure on hose pipes. Going to flush and fit new ford thermostat and expansion tank cap.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 15^th, 2006, 10:33pm

I have noticed that the pipe leading into the heater matrix has ballooned at the thermostat end. Would this cause a lack of pressure into the matrix?

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by mr_d on Mar 16^th, 2006, 7:55am

wouldn't think it would cause low preasure. Might restrict water flow to heater

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 16^th, 2006, 10:26pm

Replaced the matrix inlet pipe.........no difference.
I have now:-
1) replaced the thermostat
2) replaced the water pump
3) completely flushed whole cooling system backwards & forwards
4) new pressure cap
5) replaced heater rad inlet pipe
6) refilled system very slowly with 60/40 mix of anti-freeze
7) ran engine for one hour with rad cap off & jacked up on front o/s, revving it every so often

I am now wondering whether indeed I have been sold a dud brand new thermostat by Ford.

Anyone else have any more suggestions

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 16^th, 2006, 10:33pm

I have also drained all the oil out to check for water. There was evidence of water so put it back in (it's only done 500 miles).

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by tony on Mar 17^th, 2006, 7:16am

Hi jonnycab,

I take it you mean there was no evidence of water ;D

Still points to the thermostat as the culprit I think. You could check that it opens by putting it in a pan of water and bring it slowly up to temperature, ideally with a thermometer to check the temperature at which it opens (if it does). It could be a dud - its not unknown.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Annelk on Mar 17^th, 2006, 8:52am

the correct 2.3 thermostat should be marked 88 I seem to remember.... incase you have the wrong one.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by mr_d on Mar 17^th, 2006, 9:59am

Ive got preasure now on pipes. What i done was to fill the expansin tank to the top(over fill) and run as normal. Temp gauge sits at half way and dosnt drop like it did before. Still no heat from heater until rad fan comes in. Hose from themostat to heater gets hot, but hose from heater to water pump still cold. The hose from themostat to heater is on bottom of matrix. Does anyone know if this is right, could you let me know if yours is the same.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 17^th, 2006, 10:08am

Yes...sorry..... I mean't there is NO evidence of water in the oil.
My matrix inlet hose is also on the bottom & I think this is correct.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Simmo on Mar 17^th, 2006, 10:28am

This may help you. http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/matrix.htm.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 18^th, 2006, 12:10am

The heater matrix is not blocked as I had heat last week. I am flushing it via the outlet/inlet pipes & then the opposite way round & no gunge or rust exits. The water runs clear and no resistance is evident (hosepipe doesn't force itself out the pipe), the water shoots out at the same rate that it goes in.
I tried the CC reset and it came up with the code '52'. Is this normal ?, as this code is not listed as a fault. If I press the air circ it then shows '00' which I know is normal.
The only other thing that I can think of is maybe a faulty fan switch.
Anyone ever had the experience of a faulty fan switch before & what were the symptoms?

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Snoopy on Mar 18^th, 2006, 6:58am

Code "52" could be the blower switch or the air distribution faulty seee here for fault codes http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccreset.htm a 5 instead of a 0 is sometimes normal.
From the sounds of it you might have an airlock in the heater matrix.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 18^th, 2006, 9:13pm

Thanks Snoopy for the advice. I didn't realise a '5' could be the same as a '0'. On the assumption that there was a fault with the blower switch, I pulled the CC switch panel out and took it apart. I then sprayed some switch cleaner onto the pots (in the hope it would soak in), put it all back together & plugged it back in. I then took the car for a drive and as the engine started to warm up....hey presto....there was heat....it was lovely. I checked for fault codes & all it showed was '00'...... happy days!!!!!
Unfortunately the heat only lasted for half an hour. I re-checked for faults & '07' was displayed.
The switch has always been a bit erratic....i.e...blower on halfway & all of a sudden it would go off, or air con button would light up even though it wasn't pressed. Would it be a case of just putting in a new switch panel or would the module have to be replaced?

p.s. the engine temperature also stablised and stayed slap bang in the middle without so much as a jerk. This I can't explain, unless the CC module can somehow affect engine temperature.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Snoopy on Mar 19^th, 2006, 7:43am

"07" is an indication the HBC is playing up and needs replacing... Quite a few on here have had to replace them so worth trying to get a replacement from a later car. IT is a very easy job to replace the HBC and test it http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/hbctest.htm The SATC module is a very rare replacement but I have just heard of another going and sold the one I had but someone will have one .
The SATC Module is here http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/aircon/acmodule.pdf

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 21^st, 2006, 12:51am

Thanks again Snoopy for the advice. I checked the HBC & all is fine in that department. The CC panel did have an intermittent fault but the switch cleaner on the potentimeters seemed to sort that one out. So there are no longer any fault codes.
As for the lack of heat, I managed to finally sort that out today. I was kind of resigned to the fact that I was going to have to perform the major operation of pulling the dash out and replacing the heater matrix.
I thought I'd try one more backflush and refill.
I left the hose pipe in the heater matrix outlet pipe for about half an hour on full power & then another half hour on the inlet pipe (God knows what the water meter is going to read). It was running clear all the time, but there could have been very small particles of rust gradually being washed out, which you wouldn't really be able to see.
Before refilling the system, I pulled off the small pipe on the expansion tank & pushed a three foot length of TRANSPARENT tubing into it up to about six inches. I then gaffa taped the other end to the under-bonnet so the top was two & half feet above the expansion tank (a couple of feet would probably be ok, it was just that this was the length I had). Next I re-filled the cooling system up to the max mark on the tank. I then started the engine (expansion cap off, but not sure it really matters).
Now the good bit...... As the engine started to warm up, I revved it occasionally and could see the blue anti-freeze going up the TRANSPARENT tube followed by.......AIR !!!!... The anti-freeze then dropped back down & the air was expelled. The beauty of this is that you can see it coming out while sitting in the drivers seat.
When the engine was hot and the heater was hot and no more air could be seen coming out of the transparent tube (just anti-freeze going up & dropping back down when revving). I connected the small pipe back on to the expansion tank, topped it back up with about half a litre of anti-freeze (level was just below min) and replaced the pressure cap.
I'm not sure whether it was the 1 hour matrix flush or the 3 foot transparent tube that did it, but who cares....
I have heat again !!!! hallaylloooyahhhh

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Snoopy on Mar 21^st, 2006, 6:29am

Good result in the end. We all might have learnt something from this . Thanks for the explanation.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Mar 29^th, 2006, 12:45am

Just had to re-fill my cooling system again due to the cooling fan switch popping out. Did the transparent tube method again & it was a success. The heater matrix seems to have an airlock that cannot be disspelled from just raising the car at the front & revving with the expansion cap off. The only way I can get all the air out of the system is by putting a long pipe in the small expansion tank pipe.
P.S. from cold start up to hot this method takes 20 minutes & if you're thinking about changing your matrix, try this first, it may save alot of hassle. Obviously airlocks are a problem in the Scorpio heater matrix.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Christopher_Dean on Mar 29^th, 2006, 5:00pm

Well done Jonnycab,

I wish I had persiverd with flushing the matrix out, instead of taking the entire dashboard out. But worth it in the end.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Apr 4^th, 2006, 11:13pm

Heater's cold again & matrix outlet pipe is cold.........hmmm........It looks like a matrix change. Flushing the matrix & getting rid of the airlocks worked for a while but I suppose there is no getting away from the inevitable. Matrix obviously must have a restricted flow & seems to block up easily.
I've printed off the procedure & will start tomorrow. Can it be done in a day?.....lets see
Oh well.......here we go........

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Apr 6^th, 2006, 8:53pm

Two days now.... I might have had it done if it were not for the fact that new matrix (states Sierra/Scorpio on Box) wouldn't fit in the heater box due to the end being too large & so wouldn't fit through the halfway hole in the heater box (£29 matrix). I've taken that one back & ordered one from Ford (£91) & will get it Friday.
One more thing that may be a helpfull addition to the matrix removal described on this site is that removing the brake pedal or at least swinging sideways towards the accelerator by removing the long bolt & nut at the top does help immensely.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Apr 8^th, 2006, 7:44pm

Finished.............. Heating is now working perfectly.
The old matrix wasn't completely blocked but was severely restricted (blowing into it took a lot of effort), so anything other than water (rust & other particles) passing through it was obviously blocking the very slim passageways.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by Jim on Apr 9^th, 2006, 8:20pm

I had the same problem fitting the matrix, but it is only a seam half way down the heater apature. Quick cut with a hacksaw blade gave it enough flex to push the matrix through (only fouled the casing not the tubes). However the Ford Scorpio matrix is also longer than the standard Sierra/Granada one and so has a greater heat capacity.

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by jonnycab on Apr 9^th, 2006, 10:00pm

When I spoke to Ford about the matrix, they asked me if I had climate control (which I do), because if you have this then it is a different matrix to Scorpios that just have normal air-con or no air-con at all. I went for the more expensive Ford matrix as I want it to last. I suppose I could have filed the middle hole in the heater box to make it bigger, but I figured that the original more expensive matrix would do the job properly & last longer. Lets face it, who wants to do that job again in a years time?

Title: Re: Cooling system
Post by sector-9 on Apr 9^th, 2006, 10:43pm

Does anybody have a broken HBC and/or SATC module they'd be willing to give me? I don't need them for my car but I'd be interested in taking them apart and seeing what it is that's failed in them (probably a power transistor), hopefully if I can find out I can make a guide to repairing them.

I'm not an electrician or electronics expert by any means, and there's probably people on here better qualified to do it, but if nobody else fancies the challenge...

Darren