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        General >> Problems >> Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
        
(Message started by: adowds on May 1^st, 2006, 5:29pm)

Title: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 1^st, 2006, 5:29pm

Was out driving around today when the car lost power, ran terrible and the O/D light started flashing at me. This was just after pulling away sharply from some lights.

Ignition off and on sorted it, but it this the start of something hellish that'll cost £10k to fix? Car is a 95M 24v Ultima saloon with 125k miles up.

I think I remember reading something about this fault on here but can't find it again.

Tell me it's a 50p sensor inside the glovebox or some similar easy repair...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 2^nd, 2006, 8:31am

Wish I could tell you that it was a 50p thingy, but I suspect it is not.
Are you continuing to get poor power out of any one gear, if so which one? Has the light kicked in again at any point since? Colour of oil ? Any other odd behaviour?
If you are getting really crappy power in one gear, it would normaly meen that the break bands are dieing. Mine went in 2nd and an OBD gave an incorrect ration code. Drove like it had the power of a 1.6l and on steep hills, your lucky if I could get 20mph on hills that I could normaly pull away on no problem. The OD light only came on a couple of times under a heavy foot. Another thing was, my oil still stayed pink throughout :P
I would suggest an OBD, check/clean your MAF (as per the norm ::)) and see what you get. But if you are getting a baddly performing gear and get an OBD code to back this, you could be looking at a box rebuild, new or second hand unit :'(

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 2^nd, 2006, 3:05pm

It's gone off now and I've driven a few miles without it coming back. The tranny fluid is still red, but is a little bit dark I think.

Have ordered an OBD cable, and will try the MAF cleaning too.

How much is an autobox recon if that is the problem? Around £1k I bet?

Oh well...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by tintin on May 2^nd, 2006, 4:03pm

Hi,

just been through similar, see my earlier postings, ended up getting a s/h box from Highlander, and got a local automatic shop to fit it, ca £400 all in. no more box problems.....cant say the same about the rest of the car ;D

may not be this, but doesnt have to be £1k if it is......

cheers

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 2^nd, 2006, 5:15pm

Thanks Tintin, that's encouraging! as you say, it may not be that bad. One thing at a time!

Al

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 2^nd, 2006, 7:10pm

Same here, bit the bullet and got a second hand unit from paulscorp. All in all, £320 inc labour but only trust members when it comes to a second hand unit. With a breakers or ebay job you really take yur chances!

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 2^nd, 2006, 7:22pm

Aye, guess so. But are there that many low-mileage Scorpios about still? Is buying a 90k box and fitting it risking the £3-400 for that job a bit?

It seems like even a box in good order sold in good faith with red fluid etc, can still go pop suddenly with little warning.

Has anyone has a box reconditioned? How much was it?

Going to go out and do the MAF thing in a bit, wish me luck! OBD cable ordered today, £70 inc from www.ukobd.co.uk

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 2^nd, 2006, 9:37pm

Well, did the MAF thing, although it didn't seem too dirty. Put it back together, went for a run, all seemed good...

But reversing back into the parking space, the box wouldn't engage reverse, and the OD light started flashing again. Switch off and on, and it was all okay.

Guess I need to do the OBD thing and see what errors I'm getting. But it don't look good, eh?

Is there any other option apart from waiting with my AA card until I break down? Isolate the OBD errors, and maybe bite the bullet with a recon/secondhand box I guess? I presume Ford dealers are a waste of time at this point? Worth trying an automatic transmission specialist? Anyone know one in Surrey? I'm in Croydon and there's one in Yell.com that's nearby.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Simmo on May 2^nd, 2006, 9:59pm

I've just looked on 'Honest Johns' website (Telegraph motoring) and he lists King Automatics at The Chalk Pit.College Road,Epsom KT17 4JA. Tel 01372 728769.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 2^nd, 2006, 10:01pm

Cool - thanks for that Simmo!

Epsom's pretty near, will put them on my phoning list...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 2^nd, 2006, 11:23pm

There are of coarse no givens when it comes to a second hand box, one from a memeber can fail as fast as the next one. You can only know that it works before you pay your cash. A full recon can be £650-£850, depends where you are.
As it turns out, the majority of boxes CAN last well past 200K, a regular oil/filter change can prolong the life of a box to acheive this fig. A hell of a lot of scorps are still on there first oil/filter when they fail, and this can be well into the mid 100K mark. A recon is of coarse money well spent in the majority of cases, but most recons only repace the bits that are worn, and leave the rest, ready for a possable future prob (OK 10k'S later maybe). This is not a fun problem at all but unlike complete engine failure, may not be the end of the world.
BTW, what year do you have? If it is 95, It is well documented on the site about the older loom failure causing all sorts of probs as well.... :)

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 2^nd, 2006, 11:28pm

It is a 1995 car, yes...

Is this the engine bay loom thingy? I'm thinking that the random nature of the errors may point to an electrical problem as it happens... Will check this out tomorrow. Is the only damage the visible stuff from the engine bay? You don't have to drop the gearbox to spot the damage?

I know what you mean with the recon/used box quandary. Would an oil change be worth a go before changing the box do we reckon?

By the way, top screen name Bawflinger. You another Jock? I'm from Greenock, but live down in that London now...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 3^rd, 2006, 1:12am

LOL, Yup origonaly from East Kilbride, also living in southern Jessie land (Just NW of London, High Wycombe). A visual inspection of the loom around the engine bay can be a good indication. Any visable Splitting, cracking or corroded outer sheaths can be bad news right away, but the loom can be damaged on or around the box, which is not vewable from the bay, thats a job for a ramp. An OBD should tell you what you want but there are a few tricks. An electrical (loom or connection)problem may cause false codes but can be sorted out by taking a reading first to see what you get. Then disconect the battery for at least 30 mins, then take it for a long run. The false codes (if any) will disappear but the real ones will stay as the true problems will still be there until you fix them. At least, I'm sure thats the way it goes........... :) An oil change is prob a moot point until you check out the possable problem, could be throwing good money after bad.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Simmo on May 3^rd, 2006, 9:40am

Al, Another one for you to try, www.hardyengineering.co.uk. Near junction 9 of M25 (Leatherhead).

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by stafford on May 3^rd, 2006, 7:09pm

see what the OBD comes up with and do some research..Id ring around some auto specialists ..just to test the water ..ie how do they sound? Are they knowledgeable about this box? What options will they give you? good luck with the OBD scan thats the first step...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 3^rd, 2006, 9:28pm

OOOOOkayyy.

went for a run, with the OBD cable laptop in place, and provoked the OD flash. No bad symptoms from the motor, just the light flash. But the digimoto lite didn;t show any erroe codes or anything. Came back home, had dinner, went back out and plugged lappy in again, get threee error codes:

P0135, P0141, P0155

According to the excellent code list, these are all oxygen sensor faults. What does this mean??? Can failing 02 sensors cause the OD light?

I think I need to spend more time with the software, clear these faults and see what else arises.

Kinda encouraged there are no tranny error codes. This is probably misplaced happiness of course...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 4^th, 2006, 4:27pm

Mmm, dont know about that one. Perhaps someone else can help with those. The funny thing is mine also rev'd N thumped into 3rd which is normaly a sign of a faulty solenoid but never got a code for it on a scan :-/

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 4^th, 2006, 8:47pm

Well, it's all getting worse. Got a code 1747 now - EPC solenoid short circuit. And the box is going pretty spastic now - not engaging, slipping, thumping, all the rotten stuff. All the O2 sensor errors are still coming up too.

I guess there's no advice other than start phoning automatic transmission shops...

Gutted. I've been spending a load of cash getting the proper mats for it, replacing pollen filters, sorting the keys at the dealer, all the right stuff. Now it's going to nuts itself in a multi-hundred-pound way.

Maybe I should have got a nice wee focus 1.4 on the finance after all.

The only thing in my favour is the tranny oil is still red. Hmmm.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Matt on May 4^th, 2006, 9:31pm

hi

Just on an off chance, remove the facia around the gear shifter and check the cables

i recently had some strange box problems but the one that made me strip that part of the car down was that i was getting the tone saying the car wasn’t in park when i was,

i found a heart breaking site, all the cables under there had melted together and the S button melted solid too

the cables run off under the front passenger seat and then all the way along under the dash ( dash out job :( )

like i said it's an off chance but may as well have a look, it's very simple to strip that part of the car down

Matt :-/

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 4^th, 2006, 9:37pm

Cheers mate, will add that to the list of checks.

I had it idling outside a minute ago to check the fluid again, and it had a wee panic attack - big misfires, rough as hell idle, etc etc.

Maybe it's not the box - will do a load of ignition and fuel checks this weekend I reckon.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Matt on May 4^th, 2006, 9:45pm

hi

i think i may know what that is as ive had simlar, first, check that the multi plug is pluged into the MAF sensor (muggins here forgot one time ::)) also when i disconected my battery and connected back up, i started the car and like normal gave it some gas, the car hated that, it struggled to rev and when i came off the car is misfired and died, had troube starting it again, but i disconnected the battery again, left it off for 10 mins and reconnected, i started the cars again but just let it idle for 5-10 mins before reving it, engaging gears, it was much much better for it.

i think the ecu needs time to readjust before it behaves it's self, also check the ht leads havent been disturbed

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 4^th, 2006, 9:47pm

I did take the MAF sensor off to clean it the other day.

Maybe try the battery off tonight, eh? Anything to consider apart from the radio code?

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Matt on May 4^th, 2006, 9:49pm

have a go, but like i said i only left it 10 mins and it cleared the rubbish engine performance

also make sure nothing will be taking power , (like foot well lights etc) or the'll be sparks and blown fuses

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 4^th, 2006, 9:50pm

I'm on it.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by sector-9 on May 4^th, 2006, 10:47pm

If it's reporting a solenoid short circuit then it's almost certainly a problem with the loom (solenoids usually fail open circuit so it's probably fine). I'm not sure but I think the EPC solenoid controls gearbox hydraulic pressure which would explain it crashing into gears, if it engages at all!

Your other clue is the O2 sensor errors - there are two on the V6 and the chance of both of them failing simultaneously (along with all the other problems) is slim...

Get the front of the car up on ramps, disconnect the battery and then physically check the loom from the gearbox forward. Wipe it clean with an old rag and then flex it back and forth as you work along it. Any crumbling, breakages or charring is bad news.

There is a known issue of loom damage on the 24V, which manifests as gearbox problems inc. flashing dash lights and OBD codes - see here: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faults_wiring.htm

Darren

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 4^th, 2006, 10:50pm

Aye, I'm thinking this more and more. The faults are too random and inconsistent.

There's a weep from the power steering header tank which has soaked the two massive bolt-together connectors below it in fluid. So that's all pretty mucky. Got to be worth taking them apart and checking/cleaning? And, as you say, check wires from the gearbox back.

There's not a lot of space down there right enough.

I've read the loom damage pages, good stuff on there.

Thanks lads!

Al

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 4^th, 2006, 11:38pm

Battery off for an hour, no change. Worse if anything.

Big old strip and clean of wiring and components this weekend it is then!

Cheers lads, will keep you informed. Any other input very welcome...

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 5^th, 2006, 8:44am

If you disconnect the battery for a short time only, it normaly (::)) have minimal effect. When the battery is disconnected for 4 hours or more, the ECU starts from scratch is if the car had just been fired up for the first time from factory. This has the effect that the ECU will run on the standard ford settings until it re-learns normal operation for that engine.
Reading the above, it certainly does point away from the autobox itself. Go for the complete loom check and see what you get. BTW, I also had a leaky PS bottle which had coated the loom in that area but it caused no damage from what I could see when cleaned up, but then again I have the older loom. I think the bad one is coolant leak for looms.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by sector-9 on May 5^th, 2006, 8:31pm

If you disconnect the battery then it will idle worse for a while after reconnection. The ECU looks at things like the O2 sensors to adjust the fuelling at idle and stores the correct values in RAM. Unfortunately RAM is cleared everytime you disconnect power so it will have to re-learn those values each time. As you know you're getting spurious errors relating to different sensors, the ECU isn't getting valid signals to be able to set a good idle so it will be worse.

You almost certainly have a loom fault and if you find and fix it (cut out the damaged section and replace with new wires - colours don't matter as long as they are at least as thick as the original) then you'll probably solve all or most of your problems in one go. Once you've found the damage it should only take 30-45 minutes to replace that section and maybe a few pounds for crimp connectors and suitable wire. Until it's sorted though you're wasting your time with anything else...

Darren

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 6^th, 2006, 10:02pm

Investigations continue...

It was too wet to lie underneath the motor today, so I opened up the three big connectors on the drivers side inner wing. Two square bolt-together multiblocks and the multipin connector into the ECU in front of the suspension turret.

They looked slightly grubby, so they got a good clean with solvent/IPA and a spray of WD40 (they'll get a proper greasing with the right stuff later). Back together, and there's still a bit of a misfire and gears not selecting correctly.

I had a look at the HT leads and two of the passenger side leads look like they have some surface corrosion on the plug contact. So I'll be replacing them all anyway (where's the best supplier for these?) - but is it possible that dodgy HT leads can be causing/contributing to these running problems? Misfire I can see yes, but could this affect the gearbox too?

Going to take it into the work underground car park tomorrow and stick it up on the stands to have a good rummage about underneath and look at the tranny wiring.

Keeps it all interesting, eh?

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 7^th, 2006, 1:58pm

Spent the morning changing oil and filter and poking about further...

Found a definite HT lead fault. No. 1 lead was shorting inside the plug tunnel at idle - you could see the spark arcing to the casing through a split in the rubber. Taped this up temporarily and idle is now better. But tranny probs not improving. I think I got the 'cattle grid' problem I've heard mentioned on here when I went for a run just now.

So can dodgy HT leads cause any of the problems I've mentioned? I've ordered some new ones anyway - they need to be sorted.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 8^th, 2006, 11:35pm

This is like War and Peace...

Been checking more stuff. The HEGO sensor fuse is blown and keeps blowing replacements. This is the heated oxygen sensors, right? Does this mean one is shorting out? How can I tell which of the four it is?

Do they have three wires? One ground, one 12v power, one sensor voltage signal? Meter for a dead short across 12v power and ground I guess?

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by sector-9 on May 8^th, 2006, 11:45pm

Not sure how many wires they have but assuming three or four - two will be for the internal heater on the sensor (which requires power), remaining will be output/ground from sensor itself. Unlikely the O2 sensors themselves will be at fault (the heater is just a resistor which invariably fail open circuit) - like I said before, probably a fault in the loom.

You must check the loom before you continue trying to diagnose your problems - everything you've said points to it being the culprit and although you might find other problems in the meantime you could be plagued with varied and intermittent faults if it is...

Darren

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 8^th, 2006, 11:57pm

Yes, I'm pretty much checking everything I can see every chance I get. There's a lot to look at, with it being a new car and all.

Which specific areas do you think I should look at now? I've checked and cleaned the big multiblocks on the driver's side inner wing and they're fine. There's no obvious damage to the wiring I can see there. Underneath, the wires I can see around the transmission look okay, again with no obvious damage visible.

The water damage problem is the next one to check I guess but this means inlet manifold off, so is a bigger weekend job!

I'll have another look at the loom around the drivers side cylinder bank. The pics on the site suggest the chafing may be further back than I was looking.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by mr._floppy on May 9^th, 2006, 12:37am

If I could use a great line from Blackadder:

" I've got to admire your balls " ;D

If enthusiasm and determination were the key to getting your car working perfectly then it would running as smooth as Devon Cream and purring like a contented kitten in no time.
Keep it up lad, you're a credit to us all, and if it wasn't for this gammy leg and my thingyy bladder I'd be out there with you :-*

Seriously mate, hope you get a breakthrough soon :-*

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by adowds on May 9^th, 2006, 12:44am

I learnt a long time ago (with motorbikes) that they seldom fix themselves! And paying a garage £1k isn't much fun ( and cheating...) So until/unless I run out of ideas, stuff to check or find it's the type of heavy engineering I don't have the facilities to sort, I'll keep at it! I don't need the car day-to-day and if I'm honest I bought it as a bit of a project car anyway.

The job would all (of course) be a d**n sight harder without this excellent website to keep me at it. I feel like I owe a few of you guys a pint of strong continental lager already...

Your support, and that of your bladder, is much appreciated!

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by scorpio_man on May 9^th, 2006, 5:41am

hi there

look at the wiring across the slam panel. this is a bit of a nasty point. :(

hth

btw, the lambda's have 4 wires.

Title: Re: Oh no!!! O/D light flashing!
Post by sector-9 on May 9^th, 2006, 10:58pm

This link might help: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/gearbox1.htm

I don't have a petrol Scorpio so I can't comment other than what I've read but it seems to be round the back of the engine, around the cylinder heads where it all goes wrong...

Darren