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        General >> Problems >> 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the plug
        
(Message started by: SteveS on May 6^th, 2006, 9:11pm)

Title: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the plug
Post by SteveS on May 6^th, 2006, 9:11pm

Hi Everyone,

I am a forum and cossie newbie....

Just collected a 96 2.9 24V Cosworth which has been standing outside in front of a friends garage for 18 months.

Good battery, cranks nicely but won't start.

No PAT's alerts form the dash LED.

Checked fuel cutoff in boot and the button is depressed - is this correct?

Used OBD11 setup from UKOBD which uses the Digimoto software and this reports nothing on the error codes.

Removed one of the plugs - not bad condition - crancked engine and I do get a smell of fuel from the head.

Don't get a spark from the plug when earthed and the engine crancked.......

The Low Tension (four pins) connector on the Electronic Distributor has been hacked by someone in the past and has the wires exposed but connected.

About 2 inches too the right of the distributor there is what appears to be a "condensor" (3cm square) which is bolted to the engine block with one wire coming out of it (appears to have an exit moulding for two wires)..... This wire hangs down about 6 inches and goes no where......

Any thoughts of what to do and thanks for all the help I have got from the site so far.

Many thanks,
Steve Starr

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Baz on May 6^th, 2006, 9:48pm

Steve...welcome to the mad house!

The button in the boot should be fully depressed.

First thing to try will be the connections to the battery. When it was reconnected, were all the cables put back? There is a tendancy to miss one of the thin black wires which always drops down out of sight and is missed. Without this wire, the engine will crank forever and will not fire. Worth a first look

Baz

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 7^th, 2006, 8:05am

Hi Baz,

Thanks for the welcome and encouraging "mad house" comments.

I have just checked the car and both the battery terminals have two cable tags atatched.

The negative terminal has a heavy duty tag which feeds two large black cables and the other tag feeds two smaller cables which disapear into a piece of "ribbed" loom cover.

Couldn't see any other cables in the area which weren't connected.

The fuel cutoff in the boot is depressed into it's shroud surround so that looks OK.

Thanks,
Steve.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on May 7^th, 2006, 8:14am

Steve, Have you read this http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm. Does the PATS light illuminate because the 'Fault Finder' says if it does not check the PATS fuse. I assume that means fuse 31 in the battery side fuse box. If someone has played about with the wiring could there be a fuse blown in another circuit?.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 7^th, 2006, 3:38pm

Hi Simmo,

The PATs light comes on for about a second when ignition is switched on - which I believe is OK.... No error codes are flashed.

Before posting my Forum request for help I went through the relevant parts of the "engine wont start" pages.

All the fuses / relays etc in the fault guides have been checked and appear OK at first pass.

My main concern is the un-connected "condensor" type thing on the block next to the distributor which isn't connected to anything. This is a visible real fault but I don't know what it does or where it should be connected to...

Any wiring diagrams about??? would be helpfull.

Thanks,
Steve.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on May 7^th, 2006, 3:45pm

Look at this page http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/eecvlooms.htm and be sure to scroll to the very bottom where the link will take you to the full diagrams. It says Sierra..BUT..it is for the Scorpio.Good luck.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by scorpio_man on May 7^th, 2006, 3:48pm

hi there

wiring diagrams for the scorpio ;)

http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/sierra_el.html

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on May 7^th, 2006, 3:52pm

Have a read of this post as the Earth straps are a major feature.http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1128943046;start=15.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 7^th, 2006, 3:55pm

Hi Simmo / Scorpio_Man,

Thanks to the links.... Just what I needed....

Just had a quick look at the engine management diag and found out that the unknown unconected bit on the block is the "Ignition Transformer Capacitor" which sounds quite important to get a spark....

Mine is disconected and I didn't know where it goes... I do now...

Thanks a lot - Out to the dismal day to play with this new knowledge.

Cheers,
Steve.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 10^th, 2006, 8:35pm

Hi Guy's,

Still haven't got a spark on the plugs....

Found a crashed Ultima with same engine at local scrapppy and bought some parts on the basis that it was running when it was hit from behind so engine bits should be OK.

Replaced the Electronic Distributor on the block, Ignition Unit bolted to the wing behind the the water bottle and Ignition Tranformer Capacitor by the Distributor.... Fitted new platinum tipped plugs (wrong ones in the car) and still no spark.

Verified the integrity of the wiring between the Distributor and Electronic Ignition unit... All OK.

I have 12V on feed into the Distributor (green wire) with key in run position.

Drops to 10V during engine crank?

Replaced the batteries in the remote key fob and coded it to the car using the red key procedure else where on the site... All bleeps at the right times and all functions of remote work OK.

PATs light comes on for about 2 seconds when the key is inserted then goes out (no further flashes).

The OBD11 interface shows no error codes and displays the coolant / air temp OK so that seems to work......

When I crank the engine the OBD11 display shows RPM up from zero to about 200... Does this mean the Crank Position Sensor is working as it shows RPM or does the RPM input come from somewhere else??

Any thoughts on what it could be or what to do next.

Many thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 10^th, 2006, 8:44pm

10V when cranking is about right; the starter motor takes a helluva lot of current and will drop the voltage of even a big new battery. This is also taken into consideration though - older cars with a conventional coil used a ballast resistor in series when the engine was running (the coil itself runs on about 9V) - this was switched out of circuit when cranking.

As you are not getting any fault codes, and there is the smell of petrol in the cylinders then I would guess that the fault is in the HT portion of the ignition circuit. Generally the ECU is able to detect faults in the LT side such as open or short circuits (and flag up an error if so), but monitoring the HT side is more tricky.

You could try removing the spark plug leads from the ignition source and (with the ignition turned off) check for continuity between the high voltage terminal and vehicle bodywork. Unfortunately I don't know the electrics for the petrol engine but I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 10^th, 2006, 9:06pm

Hi Darren,

Thanks for the reply.... I will check the leads in the morning and I have a spare set that came with the bits I bought from the scrappy yesterday.... Maybe I have been spending my time looking for a difficult fault and not checked the obvious.....

Will let you know the outcome.

Thanks, SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by martin_rowe on May 11^th, 2006, 8:28am

'Distributor', cosworth dose'nt have one it usts a DIS coil pack, triggered by the ECU, check crank sensor down by the front pulley & all associated wiring, deffinatly check for missed wire at battery if that has been dissconnected.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 11^th, 2006, 11:32am

Hi Martin,

I have a crank sensor on order from FMD which is due in at lunch time today....

I have checked the battery again and the negative terminal has a heavy duty tag which feeds two large black cables and the other tag feeds two smaller cables which disapear into a piece of "ribbed" loom cover.

The two large cables disapear down through a large gromet and the two small cables run along the top of the wiper area towards the drivers side fuse box.

I cant see any other cables..... Should there be more?

In previous posts I mentioned the Distributor but you are right I was referring to it incorrectly - it is in fact the DIS Coil Pack.

Re the Crank Sensor - Is it easy to replace as I can see and get to the bottom bolt but the top one seems to be behind a little pully??

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on May 11^th, 2006, 12:21pm

Steve, Martin is referring to a third cable which is present on some cars. It is a single black wire,more flexible than the other two,and which can fall down behind the battery when disconnected. On my 2ltr 16 valve it runs through a separate grommet just in front of the front left hand corner of the battery. The other two wires are combined with a single terminal on the negative side. The positive feed is similar in that the two heavy duty red cables are combined in one terminal.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by martin_rowe on May 11^th, 2006, 12:56pm

That would be the aux belt tensioner, spring loaded, use spanner to move out of the way, do you say there is only one lead on the pos terminal (two wires), shouldnt there be another thin one, will go out & check over dinner time.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by martin_rowe on May 11^th, 2006, 2:04pm

battery has 3 wires to each terminal.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 11^th, 2006, 3:07pm

Thanks Guy's..... I will go a hunt again as it appears from the replies I may still have one black lead missing.....

There are two leads / terminals on the red.
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 11^th, 2006, 4:53pm

Hi Martin,

OK Chaps... On my vehicle I have the following:-

Positive - Two tags - One with one lead and one with two leads
- Two leads - Both go through the gromet down towards the starter motor
- Single lead - Goes to the battery side fuse box

Negative - Two tags - Both with two leads
- Two large leads both go through the gromet
- One then terminates on the chassis as the earth
- One continues down under the engine
- Two small leads - both go into ribbed loom
- The loom then goes off through the bulkhead towards passager
- A spur off the loom goes accross the bonnet towards the wiper motor

I have looked everywhere for a third lead and cannot see / locate - Should I have one??

I picked the car up in a non running state not don't know what was there before.

Re the tensioner two posts ago..... Mine seems very hard to move out of the way... How much force should be needed..... The car has been outside idle for 18 months... could it just be stiff??

I will persivere and get this thing going... Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks,
Steve.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on May 12^th, 2006, 9:24am

Hi Steve,

I had exactly this problem a few months ago with my Cosworth, took a while to get there but in the end it was a wiring fault.

When I bought the car over a year previously, it had a water leak from the pipe that goes between the heads. This was sorted but the antifreeze had rotted the insulation. I repaired and reinsulated the wires between the heads, but what the real problem came down to was where the water had been exiting at the front of the engine, all over the crank sensor etc wiring.

I had mine ODB'd two or three times and it never showed any faults. Changed the EDIS module, the coil pack, plugs, leads, all sorts but in the end as a last ditch attempt I took off the top radiator hose and saw what a mess the front wiring was in (not that easy to see, need to take top hose off, coil pack off, and take wiring wrap off).

After 4 months sat right through winter, it started straight up and ran like a beauty :D

This was my wiring between the heads which was repaired:

http://i3.tinypic.com/ziq69s.jpg

The wiring at the front was in much worse condition but access was much easier.

Worth a look mate :)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by fordcos on May 12^th, 2006, 9:33am

i agree check the wiring its a well known fault on the cossie im in the prosess of doing mine in the same area. new loom at fmd £1400.00 but no longer available. my loom is going into an electrcal dealer to be totaly rebuilt.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 12^th, 2006, 10:46am

Hi Dave and FordCos,

Thanks for the advice..... I am off to get a big fried breakfast (a bit late) then tackle the looms as this may well be the answer as I've changed almost everything else...

I will keep you posted on progress.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 12^th, 2006, 4:19pm

Thanks Dave and FordCos,

I have removed the top radiator hose and examined the loom... which was a bit rubbish...

Found the insulation on the two leads going to the CKP were chaffed and probably shorting.... Separated the two wires and cranked the engine and still no spark BUT this time the OBD11 reading for RPM showed 200 during the crank cycle......

So I am assuming the sensor is OK and feeding data to the Electronic Ignition unit.... So it's not the sensor.....

But the good news is I now have a brand new spare one for the future.....

Still no spark but will continue to investigate.....

Thanks Chaps,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 12^th, 2006, 9:11pm

OK Chaps,

Bit of progress....

- I have made a new mini loom to connect the Crank Position Sensor to the Ignition Unit
- I have made a new mini loom to connect the LT side if the DIS Coil Pack to the Ignition Unit

Now when I crank the engine with a spark plug on a spare lead I still dont get any sparks when the engine is cranking BUT as I release the key from start back to run I get a single spark from my test plug AND usually a missfire "bang" from the exhaust (three out of four times).

I have checked the input voltage to the DIS Coil Pack (green lead on pin one) and I get 12V with the key in the run position and 11V during engine crank.

Any ideas on what to do next????

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Snoopy on May 13^th, 2006, 7:33am

IS the ignition switch OK? just a thought.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on May 13^th, 2006, 12:43pm

Very interesting, you are getting there I think :)

Another thought, I know you get 12v on the green wire to the coil pack/DIS, do you get a switched voltage on the other 3 pins during cranking?

The fact that the RPM value changed on the ODB when you played the the crank sensor wiring suggests the wiring is a bit ropey.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on May 13^th, 2006, 12:51pm

if the symptoms was on an earlier car i would have said it sounds like a ballast resistor
but i don't think there fitted on the Scorpio

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by fordcos on May 13^th, 2006, 12:51pm

all the wiring damage is normally where the loom goes through the engine valley under the waterways you need to remove the inlets and the injector rails remove the water outlets and inspect the loom properly. a lot of sensor wires run in this loom section and will stop the engine running if shorting out

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on May 13^th, 2006, 12:57pm

How far back into the loom, towwards the multi-plugs, did you go with the re-wiring of that little silver ignition transformer thing? I stripped back til it looked ok, but then decided to go a bit further and it was bad there too - make sure you have actually gone back far enough with it!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 13^th, 2006, 1:17pm

From your description it sounds like the coil pack is working fine. The single spark as you turn off the ignition sounds normal. Basically the coil pack receives a permanent +12V supply from the ignition switch and has three (it fires spark plugs in pairs) switched ground inputs from the EDIS module.

Because it is the collapse of the magnetic field in the coil pack (by removal of either ground or +12V input) which generates the high voltage for the spark, the EDIS simply removes one of the ground connections - depending on which pair of plugs need to be fired - to generate a spark then reconnects it again so that the magnetic field can build-up within the coil pack. You switching off the ignition is causing the field to collapse and generate the spark. The ignition capacitor is a suppressor to reduce interference and can be removed if suspected faulty.

The EDIS module receives power for it's own evil schemes via fuse F37 in the auxillary fusebox - this also provides power to the fuel injectors so unlikely to be at fault. However the crank sensor connects directly to the EDIS module which then provides an output to the ECU and instrument cluster. The EDIS module itself can generate a spark without the ECU (in the event of a sensor fault) using just the input from the crank sensor, although the timing will be fixed and engine performance seriously reduced.

You can check the coil pack by disconnecting the white/blue, white/green & white/black (or brown/blue, brown/green & brown/yellow on newer cars) wires going to the EDIS module and tapping each of them to a good earth point - each time you do you should get a spark at two of the plugs. The blue stripe wire fires cyl 1&5, the green stripe wire fires cyl 3&4 and the black or yellow stripe wire fires cyl 2&6. TBH, I don't think the problem will be here but you need to make sure that as much as possible is working before fault finding.

Provided that checks out okay and all six plugs can spark when you do the test you can then check for a pulsed output from the EDIS module when the engine is cranking. To do this connect a low-wattage test lamp between battery positive terminal and one of the above wire colours. With the ignition on the lamp should be lit steadily and should flicker when the engine is cranked. Repeat for the remaining two wires. If one or more of them work (but not all three) then it is likely a faulty EDIS unit or loom. If the lamp doesn't light at all then check the earth connection and power to the EDIS module (and the bulb!). If the lamp lights steadily but none of the outputs cause it to flicker then check the input from the crank sensor using a multimeter set to AC millivolt range - should get about 0.2V with the engine cranking.

I think that's enough to be going on with for now - I don't think the problem is the ECU as the EDIS should still produce sparks using just the crank sensor. FWIW I suspect a fault in the loom which is dragging some or all of the three switched ground wires down to ground - if they were all open circuit then you'd still get no spark when you turned off the ignition and you've said you've replaced the EDIS module and coil pack...

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 13^th, 2006, 3:14pm

Thanks Guys,

Wow Darren your post was very informative and a bit like a mini novel but has cleared up a few "unkowns"......

I will go and check the three EDIS inputs as suggested and let you know what happens.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 13^th, 2006, 8:31pm

If you think that was long, you should read my post on 'brain' surgery! ;)

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on May 14^th, 2006, 2:44am

Keep them coming Daren !. ;)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 15^th, 2006, 5:59pm

Hey Darren and Simmo.....

OK... I followed Darrens suggestion for manually operating the DIS Coil Pack.

- Built new Temp loom.
- Connected the positive feed direct to the battery +
- Connected the three coil leads individually to earth via a push to make switch

I verified my test spark plug and lead on my wifes Astra engine and the lead I am using and the spark plug work fine with a big bright spark and associated crack noise as the spark jumped.

On the Cosworth when I depressed and released the switch connecting the coil to earth I received a very small spark (hardly visable) once every seven or eight swith operations. This was the same for each of the three coils.

I then replaced the DIS Coil Pack with the one I bought from the Scrappy..... Very similar results (one small spark every seven to ten switch operations) and was the same for each of the three coils.....

Could be the DIS Coil Pack is duff with the same problem as the one from the scrappy????

I bought a new DIS Coil Pack from e-bay yesterday which should come this week some time...

Any thoughts on the test results above?? The same problem on two DIS Coil Packs??

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 15^th, 2006, 6:07pm

Seems unlikely you've got two coil packs with identical faults but you should use a push-to-break switch for testing. Can you check the resistance between the green wire and each of the other three grounds (one at a time)? Also check the resistance between the six HT outputs and the metal earth of the coil pack. Finally, check how much current is being drawn by each coil winding when connected directly to the battery.

For all three of them to be generating a weak spark I'd say you've got a high resistance in either the LT or HT circuit. The only points which are common between the three coils are the green wire (for LT) and earthing (for HT). Looks like you're on the right track though - have you checked the output from EDIS (using low wattage bulbs) when cranking engine?

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 16^th, 2006, 10:18am

Hi Darren,

Removed all the wires (LT and HT) from the DIS Coil Pack and tested with a digital volt meter.

- Between the Green and each of the three coil triggers is about 1.5 Ohms
- Between the HT pairs is about 12K Ohms

On the DIS Coil Pack that was originally in the car I have an open circuit between the two HT leads that are connected too the the first coil. So that pack has a definate fault and is about to be binned......

I will check the earths and the current being drawn for each coil this afternoon and let you know the results.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 16^th, 2006, 10:51am

Hi Darren,

Linked the green common direct to battery positive terminal and put an ampmeter between the battery negative terminal and each of the three coil tags one at a time. Each coil drew about 11 Amps when the circuit was made.

Didn't get a spark on the test plug for any of the coils?????

Really confused now............. Pulling out hair from aldershot......

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 16^th, 2006, 11:20pm

Hi Chaps,

Tried the above again this evening for a sanity check and and I do indeed get sparks when I disconnect the negative supply to each coil. BUT the spark is very "weak" and it needed late evening lack of light to see them.

Should they be weak like this or should they be visible in day light like my Astra's are?

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 16^th, 2006, 11:59pm

Should be a good strong spark. Just a thought, but try using a pair of HT leads and (grounded) plugs to test each coil. Not sure if it'll make a difference but looking at the diagram it would appear you have an incomplete HT circuit unless you use two per coil - or at the very least ground the unused HT output of each coil under test.

The current draw by the coil pack sounds about right. I know 11A is a lot but the coils are actually step-up transformers and though they vastly multiply the input voltage they also greatly reduce the current! Of course, it does mean that the wiring between the EDIS and the coil pack has to be spot on to be able to provide the full current needed; and it's quite likely the EDIS module gets very warm when in use...

The pairing, though I'm sure you already know, is 1&5, 3&4 and 2&6. This also means my earlier posting about the ground connection to the coil pack is wrong; it probably doesn't have one!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 17^th, 2006, 8:39am

Hi Sector-9,

Thanks for the info... The previous post about re the HT to ground is wrong but I checked anyway looking for shorts or insulation breakdown..... The HT pots to ground were all open circuit.

I did the previous tests with single plugs and pairs of plugs with the same results.

The new (clean one from ebay) has just arrived in the post so I will fit and try that this afternoon.

Keep you all posted and thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 17^th, 2006, 6:46pm

Hi Darren,

Fitted the new DIS Coil Pack this afternoon and with the manual method I get a spark (still faint) on all the HT pots so the new one and the one from the scrappy work the same (spark on all the HT pots but weak).

Ran the test with the test lamp you suggested in the last post on the previous page and with the lamp connected to the positive terminal it does not light with the key in either the run or start position. This is the same for each of the three coils.

When the rain stops I will check the earth and positive feed to the EDIS as suggested - AND I put the battery cover on before the rain started as this seems very important from reading all the posts...

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on May 17^th, 2006, 6:56pm

Steve, dont know if you checked out the earth strap thing but I once had similar symptoms because of that.

I checked mine with a jump lead from the neg terminal to the engine block.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 17^th, 2006, 8:35pm

Hi Highlander,

I haven't checked the earth strap as the engine cranks OK on the starter so I have "assumed" the earth was OK.

I will check as you suggest tomorrow.... It is peeing down buckets of rain here for the last hour.... What drought?

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 17^th, 2006, 9:36pm

If you're getting no output from the EDIS then either it's faulty (and I know you've replaced it already) or the loom between it and the coil pack is shorted to ground.

Not sure what you mean about the post being wrong - have you tried grounding one side of the HT on the coil being tested to see if that improves the spark on the other side? Unless both sides of the coil connect to each other (either directly or via spark plugs) then you've got an open circuit - the engine block normally provides part of the path but if you're testing out the car you'll need to bear this mind.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on May 17^th, 2006, 11:08pm

I have not read through all this post but have you checked the pick-up on the crank.

Eddis is really a very simple system, don't make it complicated ;)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 18^th, 2006, 8:52am

Hi Guys,

I have built a new loom direct from the EDIS to the DIS Coil Pack and the crank sensor gives out about 200mV when cranked and the OBD port shows 170 ish RPM when the engine is cranked (I think this shows the sensor is working and the EDIS is sending the PIP pulse to the ECCV)?

Re the OBD... When I crank the engine I get a reading of about 170 RPM on the OBD interface for about 2 econds then back to 0 although I am cranking the engine for say 10 seconds. Also whe I crank the engine the Timimg reading shows 10 (I assume degrees) which I believe is the LOS strategy stetting. Also the Tacho in the car doesn't show any RPM?

I am going to replace the four wires that link the EDIS to the EECV and provide new power and earth to the EDIS (then I will have replaced all EDIS wiring).

Any other thoughts?
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on May 18^th, 2006, 9:09pm

Hi
Well it sounds like you know abit about the edis.

Forget about the ECU, get the edis into into LOS by stopping the return saw ECU signal.
If still no spark you have a basic edis fault.
Just test each component of the edis in turn.
If it sparks then it's either a ECU or PATS fault.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 23^rd, 2006, 8:15pm

Hello again chaps,

This is a bit of a saga but percivering (even against the weather)....

Just to recap on the last four pages and where I am now.....

Symptom - No spark at the plugs...

I have three DIS Coil Packs...
One originally from the car
One from a rear ended scorpio from the scrappy
One from e-bay (rated as used but working when removed)

I have totally by-passed all the cars wiring and am testing the DIS Coil Pack in the car.

- The common positive feed direct to the battery POS terminal
- Each of the three coil triggers linked by individual switches to the battery NEG terminal
- Two spark plugs and leads for testing (verified working by testing on another car)
- Each spark plug body connected directly to battery NEG terminal

When the circuit is made for each individual coil an ampmeter connected in series shows about 11 Amps of current being drawn.

There is about 1 Ohm resistance between the positive common and each of the coil trigger.
There is about 2 Ohms resistance between coil trigger to coil trigger
There is about 10KOhm resistance accross each pair of HT pots (one faulty on original pack)

The above is the same for all three DIS Coil Packs.

I dont get a spark on any HT lead on any of the DIS Coil Packs testing as above.

I bought a standard HT coil today from the local factors and used that for the tests above and I DO get a spark (still weak I think (no reference point as car never worked)) but there is a spark which I can see...

Conclusion is all three DIS Coil Packs are faulty with the same fault... Which is hard to believe ? ? ?

Can someone confirm the layout of the DIS Coil Pack for me as a sanity check please... Looking from the front of the car...

LT
- Left Pin - Common positive feed
- Coil 1 trigger
- Coil 2 trigger
- Right Pin - Coil 3 trigger

HT
- Left pair Coil 1 HT
- Middle pair Coil 2 HT
- Right pair Coil 3 HT

Any suggestions or telling me what I am doing wrong will help.... Wifes giving me stress with "get rid of that heap of junk statements".

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 23^rd, 2006, 10:45pm

The resistances you give appear to be correct (no data to work from but 1ohm at 11amps would equate to a battery terminal voltage of 11V). Not sure what the resistance between each pair of HT outputs should be but as they are the same across each of the coil packs then we can assume they are correct.

So, the common elements still in the circuit are the spark plugs and HT leads. Are the spark plugs gapped correctly as recommended (typically 0.8mm) and are the leads 'supressed'? If so then they will have a high internal resistance themselves, added to that of the coil which powers them.

The next test to do is to somehow connect the spark plugs directly to the HT output pairs of each coil, bypassing the HT lead itself, and seeing if that improves the spark. Alternatively you could connect a short length of wire between the coil output and the spark plug but bear in mind that the insulation on most wire will not withstand the voltage produced by the coil so it needs to be well away from any metalwork and more importantly, you! It won't melt or anything but the insulation won't be sufficient to prevent electrocution or shorting to earth hence needing to be kept clear.

Also, if there is a metal earth tag on the coil pack (perhaps one of the mounting holes) then this will also need to connect to the spark plug 'bodies' (i.e. whatever you are using as an earth). I don't think this will be the case as the diagram doesn't show the secondaries as being centre-tapped as I would have expected. Still, you can tell if it is by measuring resistance between one HT output from the coil and the earth tag. If it is centre-tapped then you'll get a reading approx. half that of what you reported. If it's not then you'll get no reading (open circuit).

FWIW, it appears from the diagram that the coil pack primaries are wired the same way as a three-phase motor in 'star' configuration, and the secondaries aren't centre-tapped...

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on May 23^rd, 2006, 11:39pm

The coils sound O.K.

Check the engine has a good earth.

I would be double checking the crank sensor & module + wiring again.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 30^th, 2006, 12:00pm

Hello again chaps,

This is a bit of a saga but percivering (even against the weather)....

Just to recap on the last four pages and where I am now.....

Symptom - No spark at the plugs...

I have three DIS Coil Packs...
One originally from the car
One from a rear ended scorpio from the scrappy
One from e-bay (rated as used but working when removed)

I have just received a fourth DIS Coil Pack from ebay which was rated as used but working.... It has the same resitance in the LT side and the same resistance accross the HT pairs and open circuit between the HT pots and chassis earth.

I have totally by-passed all the cars wiring and am testing the DIS Coil Pack in the car.

- The common positive feed direct to the battery POS terminal
- Each of the three coil triggers linked by individual switches to the battery NEG terminal
- Two spark plugs and leads for testing (verified working by testing on another car)
- Each spark plug body connected directly to battery NEG terminal

When the circuit is made for each individual coil an ampmeter connected in series shows about 11 Amps of current being drawn.

There is about 1 Ohm resistance between the positive common and each of the coil trigger.
There is about 2 Ohms resistance between coil trigger to coil trigger
There is about 10KOhm resistance accross each pair of HT pots (one faulty on original pack)

The above is the same for all four DIS Coil Packs.

I dont get a spark on any HT lead on any of the DIS Coil Packs testing as above.

I bought a standard HT coil from the local motor factors and used that for the tests above and I DO get a spark (still weak I think (no reference point as car never worked)) but there is a spark which I can see...

Conclusion "I dont know as I am confussed and fed up....."

Can someone confirm the layout of the DIS Coil Pack for me as a sanity check please... Looking from the front of the car...

LT
- Left Pin - Common positive feed
- Coil 1 trigger
- Coil 2 trigger
- Right Pin - Coil 3 trigger

HT
- Left pair Coil 1 HT
- Middle pair Coil 2 HT
- Right pair Coil 3 HT

I have also tested with the spark plugs directly in the HT pot pairs to bypass the HT lead internal resistance.

As I have bypassed all the car wiring with new cables for this testing I haven't checked the engine earth and EDIS wiring again as this is not used for these tests. Until I get a spark manually there is no point re verifiing the car looms.

Any suggestions or telling me what I am doing wrong will help.... Wifes giving me stress with "get rid of that heap of junk statements".

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Kjetil S on May 30^th, 2006, 12:33pm

Tried with another known working battery?

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 30^th, 2006, 12:53pm

Hi Kjetil,

I haven't tried with another battery as the one I am using gives 11 Amps when requested to each of the coils and if used to crank the engine it turns over very well.

Do you think the battery could be the problem?

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Kjetil S on May 30^th, 2006, 3:29pm

I don't know. But it couldn't hurt to try, since it seems like you've tried everything else.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on May 30^th, 2006, 4:17pm

Yep someone else had that, battery cranked the engine no problem but wasnt good enough to start it

(if it is the battery your good lady will be well impressed ;))

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 30^th, 2006, 5:17pm

Hi Chaps,

Took the test rig to the spare Astra..... Tested the leads and plugs I am using on the Astra by removing one of the leads from the distributor and running the engine on three cylinders.....

Nice spark on the plugs and if I moved the lead away from the distributor the electric "ark" jumped about 1 inch.

Plugged in the test rig and no spark using the DIS Coil Pack (all three of them)...

I then earthed all three of the LT inputs and broke/closed one of them and still no spark....

Could someone please verify the pins I am using in my last post as I am doing something fundementaly wrong as I can't have the same fault on all the coils of three DIS Coil Packs..... There must be something I am doing wrong......

Help Please... Please... Please...
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on May 30^th, 2006, 6:42pm

i found this dont know if its any help
DIS MODULE & SENSOR CHECKS

Here’s a little trick that will literally show you if a DIS module and its crankshaft sensor circuit are working: connect a halogen headlamp to the spade terminals that mate the DIS module to the coils. A headlamp is recommended here because it puts more of a load on the module than a test lamp. If the headlamp flashes when the engine is cranked, the DIS module and crankshaft position sensor circuit are functioning. Therefore, the problem is in the coils.

If the headlamp doesn’t flash, or there’s no voltage to the module or coil pack when the engine is cranked, the problem is most likely in the crankshaft sensor circuit. On most vehicles, a bad crank position sensor will usually set a fault code, so use a scan tool to check for a code. Or, check the crank sensor itself.

Magnetic crank sensors can be tested by unplugging the electrical connector and checking resistance between the appropriate terminals. If resistance is not within specs, the sensor is bad and needs to be replaced.

there is more here
http://www.aa1car.com/library/dis.htm

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on May 30^th, 2006, 7:25pm

not sure if this is what you want

http://www.wrenchead.ca/HTML%20Presentation%20folder/img067.gif

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 30^th, 2006, 9:14pm

Hi John,

Thanks for the info it is exactley what I needed.... unfortunatley it confirms that my home made test wiring loom set up is correct which leaves me still confussed....

In simple terms my testing is to connect the pos feed of the DIS Coil Pack direct to battery + connect each of the LT coil feeds to to battery - via a switch....

When the switch is on the coil is "charged" and when the switch is turned off the collapsing coil field in the primary induces a pulse in the secondary (HT) which causes the spark (in theory).

Only I don't get a spark using any of the three coils on the four DIS Coil Packs I have.....

I will go and check again now it is dark in case there is a spark but I can't see it in day light..... I will update the post in 30 mins.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 30^th, 2006, 9:54pm

Hi Chaps,

My neighbours think I am mad.... working on the car at night with no lights.....

OK.. Success... In the dark I get sparks (faint) from each of the HT pots on all three coils on both the DIS Coil Packs I just tested..... which are consistantly sparking each time I remove current to each of the LT leads.....

So tomorrow, weather permiting, I will reconnect the EDIS with the new loom I have made and perform the checks mentioned earlier in the posts.... I have already verified the crank sensor works now it has a new loom to the EDIS (by using a voltmeter and the OBD11 software reports RPM during engine crank).

Update will follow tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your help so far,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on May 30^th, 2006, 11:12pm

Good luck with it. I'd be suprised if it does work without a strong spark (needs higher voltage to jump in the compressed vapour mix), but it seems like trying is all you can do now.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 31^st, 2006, 8:16am

Hi Darren,

I would agree with you with the need for a strong spark to bridge the gap when the cylinder is compressed..... But I get the same "sort of spark" from every coil on three different DIS Coil Packs......

Hard to accept that all the packs are faulty with the same problem unless this is a known problem?

Going to carry on with the car now and test the EDIS6 and looms to the ECCV.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on May 31^st, 2006, 4:11pm

Hows it looking, Steve?

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on May 31^st, 2006, 4:33pm

I'm still going with the bad earth theory, did you check it with a lead from the block to the -ve terminal? And a new/good correctly rated battery?

Wouldnt be the throttle position sensor would it? WOT(dunno what you've checked to date)

Did i read the last posts right that you are now getting a spark although very weak? (bad earth ;))

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on May 31^st, 2006, 6:54pm

Hi Highlander,

I haven't checked the earth yet as during the previous tests I had plugs etc connected by cables direct to battery -ve - Will check as part of next tests.

The battery isn't the correct power rating (it came from an escort) as the one in the car didn't hold charge - Have new 680Amp on order.

Not looked at the throttle sensor - would that effect starting - when I view the OBD11 live stats and depress the throtle pedal the reading still says 0% - Is this right? - I was working on the basis that it would report it's setting when the engine was running?

Did some more tests today and will review the previous posts you guys have made to check my notes then post an update.

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on May 31^st, 2006, 11:29pm

If the throttle position sensor detects WOT (Wide open throttle) the engine will crank but not spark

The cable might be stuck?

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by nodge on May 31^st, 2006, 11:52pm

Been following this thread for a while now. Sorry I can't offer anything constructive but it's gripping stuff :) Better than the Da Vinci Code. The suspense is killing me ;) Can't wait for the "It's started!" post when I'm sure everyone on here will give you a big round of applause. Keep at it Steve and I'm sure you'll get there.

Nodge

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 1^st, 2006, 10:08am

Hi Nodge,

Thanks for the encouragement and you are right... I cant wait for the "it's started post"........ I will continue to progress as after all it's "ONLY" an engine.... How hard can that be.

My wife is very supportive with "Get that heap of cr*p off MY drive" each night she comes home" where would we be without family support?

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 1^st, 2006, 12:22pm

OK Chaps.... Next Chapter,

- I have replaced the battery with a BOSCH unit rated at 70Amps 640Amps
- I have checked and cleaned the engine/chassis earth strap
- I have checked and cleaned the battery -ve to chassis lead

I have replaced every wire on the EDIS6 plug with four new looms

- one with two wires to the Crank Sensor
- one with three wires to the DIS Coil Pack for the LT feeds
- one with four wires to the EECV under the passanger foot well
- one with two wires direct to the battery + and - terminals (+ via a switch)

Still no concistant spark at any plug but the odd missfire type sound when the key is released from start to run after cranking (maybe one missfire sound every six or seven cranks.

I have used an oscilloscope to check various signals and the Crank Sensor, as measured at the EDIS plug, is giving 2V AC peak to peak sine wave.

I have carried out the tests suggested by Darren on the last post of page two re checking the DIS Coil Pack manually and the EDIS6 module.....

DIS Coil Pack.
The DIS Coil Pack provides sparks on each HT lead for the corresponding LT coil when each tag is maunally released fom earth.

EDIS6.
Connected a low-wattage test lamp between battery positive terminal and each of the LT feeds in turn.

With the ignition on the lamp is not lit at all on any LT Feed

With the engine cranking the lamp is still not lit for any LT Feed at all BUT sometimes as the key is returned from start to run the lamp does flicker momentarily

The same occurs with the spare EDIS6 unit

I then connected the +ve terminal on the DIS Coil Pack directly to the battery +ve terminal and repeated tests with the same results.

Questions.

Does it matter which way round the leads are for the crank sensor to EDIS6 wiring?

Should the engine still run in LOS mode with the four wires between the EDIS and the EECV disconnected?

Does the EDIS6 unit need to be bolted to the car for grounding reasons to work as when I am testing the spare it is just floating and not bolted to anything?

Does anyone have a spare known working EDIS6 module I could borrow to aid the testing process?

As always any comments and support welcomed.

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jun 1^st, 2006, 12:23pm

I just couldn't bear it if after all this time and effort he does get it to start .........only to find the autobox is completely broken too..........

I fear it will be the straitjacket and rubber room for SteveS :'(

The curse of the 24V Scorpio claims another victim :-/

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Snoopy on Jun 1^st, 2006, 4:22pm

Well From what you are saying then it fires just occasionally as and when the key is returned from the "start" position to the "run " position.

It may sound strange but have you checked the ignition switch and the associated bit of the loom under the steering column cover.

It seems as though you get some volatge to the coil when the key is turned back>

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 1^st, 2006, 7:09pm

Hi Snoopy,

I haven't checked the ignition switch etc as the last part of my previous tests was to connect the +ve feed for the DIS Coil Pack to the battery pos to bypass all the car stuff and I have already connected the pos feed for the EDIS6 directly to the battery.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 1^st, 2006, 7:22pm

on 06/01/06 at 12:22:57, SteveS wrote:

Does anyone have a spare known working EDIS6 module I could borrow to aid the testing process?

I have one you can try Steve, send me your address and i'll post it off to you

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jun 1^st, 2006, 9:56pm

Well congratulations on getting this far - many would have given up by now. It's encouraging you've been able to narrow down (at least one of) the faults to the output from the EDIS module.

Now what you'll need to do is try the EDIS and test bulb(s) using as few inputs as possible. You'll need to temporarily disconnect the three wires going to the ECU, and the one for the instrument panel tacho; the PDF schematic shows their colours. Without any input from the ECU the EDIS will be forced to run in 'limp home' mode, but at least it should then work. It is possible the ECU is sending a bad signal to the EDIS hence the intermittent output...

Take a voltage reading at the battery terminals whilst cranking and then repeat but this time between the power and ground wires of the EDIS multiplug - make sure they are roughly the same - though I doubt this is the problem. Also check for a voltage on each of the EDIS outputs when engine stopped but ignition on. I would expect them to be at 0V but it is possible they could rest at +12V which would explain the bulb not lighting.

You may also want to see what voltages you get at each of the three ECU to EDIS wires when ignition on but engine stopped - it could still be something unrelated such as an immobiliser fault inhibiting the EDIS...

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SaveTheNight on Jun 1^st, 2006, 9:58pm

Hi Guys and apologies for my continuing abscence ! we are still manic down south but intending to be more evident again soon ... and Hiya Steve ..
just spotted this and have to say you certainly have " staying power " !!!! .... I haven't read all of the post but you have some great brains kicking in from the guys and you seem very capable yourself too .. however this would say to me that you just ain't in the right place as nothing yet has made even a slight difference from what I have seen ,despite all your fine efforts< and it would have done >. The forum works so well because although the Scorp can be a nightmare at times, your problem has to be pretty special not to have been covered by somone here .. and coincidences aren't really common on the Scorp although the faults are ... I would like to go back to basics and ask why it had stood at your mates garage so long ... was it running back then ? ..or was there a fault ? .. a bit of info would help .. my advice for what it's worth would be not to trust the PATS code or lack of it .. but firstly to substitute the fuel and management relays if you can < hmmm 17 and 19 from memory but the lads will comment on that if I'm wrong> as both will cut fuelling and affect spark to save killing the CATS .. the nearly firing suggestion is fairly common when you have a low spark ,as the spark increases when you let off the starter draw on what we call " back of the key " effect.. so relays first ... then throw an EEC < ECU > in ...as my guess would be that .. hold back a while from redesigning the whole wiring system lol ... and if not then a second hand PATS module and ignition key < to hold close to the ignition switch transponder whilst trying to fire her up > ... Dave < howie > or highlander or others will surely help with bits to try ..i'll have a look too and see if I can find some to send you ... regards ....STN ...good luck too ..you DESERVE IT !!!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 1:05am

Oh boy sounds like your having fun. :-X

Well could be lots of things, ECU & PATs are old favourites as savethenight has said but I guess you just want to see a spark now, if you cut all the ECU returns to the Edis it should spark mate don't matter if it's a ECU, PATs fault etc as long as you have 12V feeds to the edis & coil as Darren has said.
If not something with the edis system is at fault.

It is possible it may start but it shouldn't as it has no injection triggers.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 6:04am

Just to say that StN is correct ....of course...Relay 17,Fuel injection pump and 19 is Engine management system. I am sure everyone wishes you the best of luck and most can't wait to find out the actual cause of the problem!!.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 7:41am

Morning Chaps,

Thanks for all the posts last night - it may seem strange but I find all the help is most encouraging and I will get it going just to meet some of you at the various meets and say thanks in person.

Highlander is kindly going to send me a spare EDIS to try and I will have a play with the car again when I finish work this afternoon (may even have the day off as the weather is nice for a change). Sent Highlander a PM with the address.

I will have a go at the tests Darren suggested and disconnect the EDIS and EECV connections (I put "bullet" connectors in this loom to make it easier).

The car was left 2 years ago when my mate got a real flash job which came with two company cars, a merc for him and a mondeo for the missis. It was used each day untill then and regularly did 200 miles a day. He had had problems with the crank sensor in the past with a real bodge on the wiring to fix it.

Will update you later with some "positive" progress.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 10:01am

If it came to it I have a spare ignition barrel and (black) key that I bought from Highlander, you could see if he still has the PATS module and try them out :)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 11:40am

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the offer... But until I can get Darrens tests (lamp flicker when cranking) to work with every part of the cars wiring bypassed I think ingition barrel / pats may be later if they appear faulty.

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 1:20pm

I have a complete key/barrel/pats module from a 24v exec if you need to try it

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by tintin on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 1:45pm

Hi,

i am by no means a mechanic! but could this kind of symptom be caused by tracking on the leads/EDIS somewhere? just when i got tracking on my audi coil, i got weak/no spark.....

just a (probably stupid) thought ;D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 4:09pm

EDIS6 on route ;)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 8:30pm

Hi Highlander,

Many thanks for the loan of the EDIS6 Sir! do you know when I can expect to receive it?

I have done a bit more playing and am in need of a quick sanity check please....

From all the help I have received from you guys and my testing the next thing wrong appears to be the EDIS6. Can you chaps have a look at the summary below and let me know if any of I disagreeumptions are wrong.

Assumptions
1 - An input from the crank sensor at 2V AC peak to peak at the EDIS plug is OK?

2 - It doesn't matter which way round the two leads are from the crank case sensor as the output is a 2V AC sine wave?

3 - With the four leads between the EDIS and EECV disconnected the EDIS should revert to Limp home mode and provide ignition firing pulses purely on the input from the crack sensor?

4 - With the four leads in point three above disconnected I have effectivley bypassed the EECV control input and any possible problem with PATS?

5 - By wiring the +ve feed for the DIS Coil Pack directly to the battery +ve terminal I have bypassed the reliance on the fuses, the relays and the ignition switch to provide power

6 - By wiring the +ve feed for the EDIS6 directly to the battery +ve terminal I have bypassed the EDIS reliance on the fuses, the relays and the ignition switch to provide power

7 - By wiring the -ve feed for the EDIS6 directly to the battery -ve terminal I have bypassed any potential earthing problems with chassis ground

8 - With the EDIS powered and earthed and the engine NOT cranking, each of the three feeds to the LT side of the coils should be held at -ve by the EDIS to energise the coils

9 - As the engine is cranked the input from the crank sensor is used by the EDIS to determine the position of number one cyclinder (ie TDC or similar)

10 - As the engine is cranked the EDIS uses the pulsed input from the crank sensor to work out when to fire each HT pair

11 - Each HT pair is fired by the EDIS by momentarily removing the -ve from the relevant LT lead to cause a coil collapse and hence an induced pulse (spark). -ve is then re-applied to the LT lead to charge the coil for the next spark

12 - With an LT coil resistance of about 1.2 Ohms each LT circuit will draw about 10 ish amps of current?

13 - With the ignition on and the engine not running / cranking the three energised LT coils will draw about 30 amps between them?

14 - If the ignition has in the past been left on and the engine not running for a "long" period of time, 30 amps will have sunk by the EDIS and it's cabling and this "may" be the cause of an EDIS failure? ? ? (Guessing here)

15 - With the EDIS connected to the EECV and using the OBD11 port I get an RPM reading of 170 during engine crank - This input comes from the crank sensor? and the fact that the OBD11 is reporting RPM on crank implies the crank sensor is working and the crank sensor part of the EDIS is working as it sends the value to the EECV which then reports to the ODB11 interface?

16 - I have fitted a new 70 / 640 Amp battery which provides 12.3V with no load and drops to 11.1V with engine cranking (measured on the EDIS multiplug). This is OK?

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Both the EDIS units I have draw around 40mA when powered on without being connected to the DIS Coil Pack.

When static or cranking the engine none of the LT outputs are ever at -ve so the EDIS continues to draw just 40mA

With the three LT leads connected to the DIS coil pack the current drawn by the EDIS is still 40mA which again shows it is not grounding the LT outputs.

I have checked the LT outputs with an oscilloscope and each lead is held at 12V (provided via the -ve feed to the DIS Coil Pack common) and is never pulled down to earth.

Conclusion
Both my EDIS modules are faulty with the same fault..... Not earthing any of the three LT leads.

The conclusion is a leap of faith based on the assumptions above so if any of I disagreeumptions are wrong I will have to rethink my conclusion.

Cant wait for the spare working EDIS to arrive from Highlander (thanks) to test my theory...

As normal please read, digest, laugh out loud and tell what I have got wrong or ommited.

Thanks,
SteveS.
PS - Will be discussing book rights when the beast works - "How Not Too...."

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 10:54pm

Should be there Saturday morning, posted first class, came off a running 24v :D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 3^rd, 2006, 7:37am

Hi Highlander,

The EDIS arrived a few minutes ago..... Getting another cup of tea then going to investigate.

Once again, many thanks for the loan.

SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on Jun 3^rd, 2006, 9:27am

1. I remember a 5 volt reading when I have tested them in the past. Maybe the sensor is not close enough to the pick-up. Just a thought?

2. The trigger is made when the voltage passes 0 so I guess it don't matter. But I would have to test a system to be sure. Yes AC.

3 & 4. Yes the Edis will run in LOS. It's a independant system & will run at 10 degrees. The ECU controls the advance & PATs can stop it working etc. If you stop all the returns if it's O.K it will work no matter what PATs or the ECU thinks ;)

5 & 6 Yes you have cut out the middle man but still put a fuse on each feed just in case.

7 Yes all negs to the battery including earthing the coil.

8 Not sure with out looking at my notes so pass.

9 Yes it has a 36 tooth sensor with a gap thats your TDC.

10 - 14 I need to look at me notes ??? but sounds right to me.

16 A good battery is important but I think you have ruled that out by fitting a new one, jump lead the two togeather if you want to be sure.

Good Luck.

4

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by David_South_West on Jun 3^rd, 2006, 12:19pm

Just a thought...is there any fail safe system on scorpios...such as low oil pressure or engine temperature that stops the engine running..I know WOT stops engine firing just wondered if here is anything else!!!
I guess you have tried disconnecting the battery for a few hours and letting everything reset.

Good luck

David

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 4^th, 2006, 6:33am

Steve, after the early start yesterday you've either got it going and,flushed with excitement, driven off into the wide blue yonder or the b.....y thing still isn't running and you're on a high building ready to jump!!!. Just put us out of our misery....please....! ;) :D.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 4^th, 2006, 10:25am

....hanging by a thread here.... ;D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 4^th, 2006, 7:52pm

Hello Chaps,

Very disappointed.... same symptoms and the first two units...... spent about 20 mins early Sat on it then decided to spend some time with my family who can return all the love I give to them as opposed to the "heap" on the drive.

Spent all the time this weekend building a new pond in the garden (another on-going project) and just decided to re visit the rest of the world........ Hello.... I have a day off tomorrow so I will have a real look at what I am doing wrong.

If I had known I had a "real time audience" I would have issued more "breaking news" stories.

Howiedintheplace - thanks for the answers for the points on the friday night post - Anyone else got some little gems tucked away that may help me solve this?

Tomorrow I will sit down and review all I have done as it doesn't make sense.

Just a quick thought.... If the EDIS grounds the three LT leads until it needs to fire one of them then momentariliy goes open circuit to colapse the relevant coil... Then it must be sinking almost 30Amps almost all the time..... The ground connection on the EDIS loom looks more like a 5Amp cable... Does the EDIS unit need to attached to the chassis for earthing reasons? ? ?

Whilst the car (still no name) is still a "heap" I am determined to get it going and give it a name....

Keep you all posted.
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on Jun 4^th, 2006, 8:44pm

Don't loose faith mate. Times like this I go & have a cupa, forget about it for a hour then come back with a fresh mind.

I would start from stratch starting with the crank sensor & just work your way in circuit order testing each part of the edis with no inputs from the ECU etc.
Edis is a good system.

Probably something simple, the hard ones always are :)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 4^th, 2006, 9:28pm

Steve I can only pick up on what was said earlier about connecting up a second battery with a set of jump leads. We have read many times about all sorts of problems that have eventually been cured with a new battery which is providing the power needed for these engines. Even 'new' batteries have been found to be faulty. As for a real time audience I'm sure most of the 'regulars' are willing you to succeed and I bet it's the first post they go to to see how you are getting on. I for one do. Good luck.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jun 4^th, 2006, 11:02pm

What you say about the current draw does seem very likely. I'm not sure about needing to be bolted to bodywork to provide earthing but at 30A it'll certainly need it for heat dissipation! If the ground wire looks too thin to handle what we think is the likely current requirements then it is quite possible it grounds the coil pack through direct contact to the bodywork - which would also satisfy the heat issue.

Have you or the previous owner coated the mounting face of the EDIS with thermal compound in an attempt to aid cooling? If so (or if there is any other form of insulator between it and bodywork) then I'd try your tests again but use a jump lead clamped onto the EDIS mounting and battery negative terminal.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 5^th, 2006, 9:09pm

Hi Chaps,

Had to go to work today after all so only just had a chance to "play"....

I have built a little test rig with three low wattage lamps linked to the 30 Amp feed cable for the DIS Coil Pack -ve feed. the lamps are connected to the individual LT feeds where they go into the DIS Coil Pack so I can see the status of all three LT feeds at the same time without having to hold anything together.

With each of my three EDIS modules none of the LT leads are pulled to ground when the engine is cranked.... The only thing that makes sense is no input from the crank sensor......

Checking the crank sensor output at the EDIS plug I get 1V AC when measured with a multimeter... When I put an oscilloscope on it shows a wave form going from +2 to -2 volts with eighteen 2V pluses and minuses then a longer 3V pulse lasting for what appears to be two time slots then repeats (I guess this is the input from each tooth and the bigger gap is the TDC missing tooth). Which looks OK I think.

On a recent post Howiedintheplace said he thought the level should be more like 5V so it is possible that it is working but not enough voltage to trigger the EDIS? The sensor is about the only thing I havent changed so I will tomorrow morning as I have a new one.

Problem is I cant seem to get to the top bolt that holds it in place... The botton one is now out...

Anyone got any help on removing the crank position sensor please.......

Off to the pub in a moment to tell my mates of another failure day..... Can't be many more left.... When I finally get the engine started I need to take it for an MOT as the last one expire at the end of 2003.... More fun to come.

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 5^th, 2006, 9:57pm

Steve, if the beer didn't help perhaps this will!!. http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engineman/cosworth/24vCKP.pdf.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on Jun 6^th, 2006, 12:54am

Steve

Just checked my notes the 5 volt signal is the SAW return.

The crank sensor must give at least a 0.5V +/- signal for the edis to arm so it appears yours is O.K as about 2v is right.

Test the PIP signal it should be +12V to ground that's when one of the ignition coils should be firing.

Coil primary resistance 0.6 ohms for the 3 coils. (use pin 4 then 1,2 & 3)
Coil secondary is 9.2K for each coil (probe 1 /6, 2/5 & 3/4)

You should get three PIP cycles per every 360-degrees crank.

PIP is the output to the ECU & is pin 1.

Module will work with a 9 - 15 volt power input.

Good Luck.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 6^th, 2006, 9:59am

Hi Simmo and Howiedintheplace,

Thanks for the info.... I tested the output of the crank sensor again this morning and on the oscilloscope the output wave form and the TDC "gaps" is not concistant over a period of time.

I plugged in the new crank sensor and held it 1 or 2 mm away from the toothed wheel whilst a friend cranked the engine and the output voltage was twice that of the original and seemed a more concistant wave form.... So I am going to replace it as it is the only "component" I haven't changed yet.

Simmo sent me a link to the crank sensor removal page which I have seen before but my problem is I can't seem to get too the top bolt. It would appear that the belt tensioner may be in the way?

Has anybody changed the sensor before? and could you let me know what you had to remove or how you got to the top bolt......

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 6^th, 2006, 10:32am

Steve,

when we had the non start fun a few months ago we changed the crank sensor. A mechanic got the old one off and replaced just the bottom bolt.

When we finally got it running we replaced the top bolt from above using a small 1/4 inch drive (makes access easier) and, IIRC, an 8 mm bit.

Another tip that may help when refitting, use a little bit of insulation tape/masking tape etc to hold the crank sensor bolt in the socket otherwise it will keep falling off. Do not use too much tape as you need it to break the seal as you turn it.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 6^th, 2006, 3:44pm

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the tip... I will try again this evening and post the update... hopefully it will be good news...

SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 6^th, 2006, 4:17pm

Fingers crossed for you :)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 6^th, 2006, 4:51pm

ive got more than my fingers crossed

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 6^th, 2006, 9:11pm

We're all holding our breath.....!!.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 6^th, 2006, 9:56pm

THE "BEAST OF BODMIN" LIVES....... LONG LIVE SCORPIO's

At long last - - - - Thanks for all your help and support chaps.....

The short version of the last 100 posts and 1800 reads is. . . . .

- The cranks sensor worked but lower voltage than the new one
- The original EDIS module is DEAD
- The original DIS Coil Pack has an open circuit on coil one HT leads
- The wiring loom for the crank sensor was shorting / broken under water pump hose
- Previous repair had crossed the crank sensor wires

Only ran it for 30 seconds as loads of bits have been taken off and not re fixed as well as a few wiring looms are "hot" and need to be routed properly.

Have taken tomorrow off work to rebuild and have a quick road test - it hasn't run for over two years so getting it through the MOT is the next hurdle.....

I will update tomorrow as to the next set of problems.

Thanks again,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 6^th, 2006, 10:01pm

We'll all sleep easier in our beds knowing that!!!!!.Well done and good luck tomorrow.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Kjetil S on Jun 6^th, 2006, 10:05pm

Congratulations!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Mummra on Jun 6^th, 2006, 10:48pm

:)Crongatulations Steve, glad you finally got it to run :)

I do have to admire your determination and staying power.

Nice one
Dave

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jun 6^th, 2006, 11:09pm

Excellent work (and patience!) - let's hope it rewards you with little or nothing needed for the MOT. :D

Incidentally, could you post what voltage readings you get from the new crank sensor onto the 'give advice' section - might save somebody less methodical a lot of time!

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 7^th, 2006, 12:33am

Multiple faults!! cant beat it! ;D

Magic Steve, glad you stuck with it ;D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 7^th, 2006, 2:58am

:) :)Congratulations steve :) :)

i think i would of given up long before you

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by howiedintheplace on Jun 7^th, 2006, 10:05am

Well done Steve.

At a guess I would say people in the past have tried to fix the car & caused some of them faults as that is common.

The crank sensor should give a wave form like this

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/sum1.jpg

As long as it's over say +/- 1 volt it should be o.k but if the wave is not right then that will be a problem as you said.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 7^th, 2006, 10:06am

Brilliant news, Steve - well done for staying with it ;)

Let us know how you get on today, and lets have a picture of the beast!

Cheers :D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by nodge on Jun 7^th, 2006, 12:31pm

Great stuff Steve :) :) :)

Well done m8.

Nodge

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 8^th, 2006, 12:19am

Evening Chaps,

Put all the looms in the right places and bolted everything back in.... Not too many bits left over...

With it all back together she idled without hunting but the fans were on all the time - traced to duff wiring for the water temp sensor.... replaced the loom and the fans stopped.... let it idle for 15mins and the the temp guage went up and the fans cut in.... Excellent.

Went for a few miles of road test (bit naughty) and at the start it creaked and weezed and made some wierd noises...... But after three miles all settled down and drove like a limo (not really used power as all 30 limits).

Booking MOT tomorrow but it looks good.... a few dash error lights on like ABS etc but will check looms tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help and I think I can close this post as the title is no longer valid.... I will open new ones as I find other problems and hope to meet some you chaps at the next scorpio meeting.

Thanks again,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 8^th, 2006, 6:46am

Well done Steve. How about you stick with this post until the MOT is over?. It's become a ritual to check this page and I'm sure we'll all miss it but at the same time be delighted to know you're up and running. I guess the 'weird noises' bit was partly the car 'learning' all the settings again which is what happens after work like yours and it does take a few miles to get its brain in gear again I understand. ABS often dirty wheel sensors by the way. Good luck.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 8^th, 2006, 7:36am

Thanks Simmo,

I will follow your suggestion and keep the post open untill the MOT is completed. I only went 3.2 miles so I guess it was still "learning" as you say. I also think some of the noise was rust wearing off the brakes etc as it last ran in Sept 2003.

Cheers for now chaps,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jun 8^th, 2006, 7:39am

ABS lights often stays on if they have been sitting a while, sometimes a few miles running is all it needs ;D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 8^th, 2006, 7:45pm

OK... Hopefully the ABS will solve it's self...... The aircon doesn't get cold so I will have a look at that tomorrow and.....

The MOT is booked for Monday.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 9^th, 2006, 7:27am

Steve,Have you looked at this page re the air con. Sometimes a re-set is all that is needed,whatever all the details you need to get an idea of the problem are here. http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccreset.htm.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 9^th, 2006, 2:09pm

.... and bear in mind that air con needs to be used to keep working properly. I guess it hasn't been used since it was laid up nearly 3 years ago so will probably need a check over and regassing.

Cheers

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 9^th, 2006, 8:20pm

Hi Dave and Simmo,

I performed the system check function in the page Simmo pointed me to and the left hand display comes up with 50, 52 and 58 any ideas what these relate too?

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 9^th, 2006, 8:38pm

hi there

i'd do the reset a couple of times. sometimes doesn't clear first time. :-/

use it for a few days and see how it goes after being off for so long. :)
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccreset.htm

hth

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 10^th, 2006, 1:52pm

Hi Chaps,

Managed to get the beast of bodmin in for an MOT this morning.....She failed as expected but only on four items....

- Both headlight beams to high
- Emissions on idle
- Emissions on fast idle
- ABS warning light on

I thought the ABS was an extra feature and as long as the brakes passed the required decellaration all was OK.... Will look at the ABS but may disable the light for the re-test if it's not an easy fix.

Will have a look at the emmisions and error codes after the footie...

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 10^th, 2006, 3:26pm

Thats a pretty good result actually, well done!

Emissions - may just want a bit of a run and some injector cleaner, along with a helping of right foot.

ABS - check all plugs, wiring and be prepared to clean the sensors, again may just need a bit of use.

Don't know how the headlights are adjusted but it surely can't be that hard. Then again ;D

Cheers

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jun 10^th, 2006, 3:29pm

Unfortunately you cannot disable the ABS lamp - the test will check for proper operation of it which includes coming on for a few seconds first thing. A conventional braking system has a reducing valve for the rear wheels to stop them locking up. On an ABS system there is no such valve as the wheels are controlled independently by the electronics.

Your emission problems may be down to the O2 sensors or temp sensor (or their wiring!), though headlamp alignment should be fairly easy to sort.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jun 10^th, 2006, 4:29pm

Steve, Does this diagram help re the lights? http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/headlamp.gif.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 10^th, 2006, 7:05pm

Hi Chaps,

Thanks for the advice.... I have just had "one of those moments".... I haven't fitted the platinum tipped plugs I bought for the car. The ones in there at the moment aren't platinum but cheap champions..... Job for the morning as well as an OBD11 check.

Do you know where the ABS control module is so I can have a look at te cabling.... Also should there be error codes in the EECV for the ABS failure? Also the traction control lamp is always on.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 10^th, 2006, 8:09pm

Here is the module, Steve:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/abssystem.gif

should be just below the ABS pump I think.

Do the ABS and traction control lights come on straight away or only after you are doing more than 15mph? Either way it sounds like connections to the rear sensors or the sensors themselves as they are used for both ABS and traction control functions so a fault will light both warning indicators.

Have a look at this as it details connectors to check:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/abssystem.htm

Cheers

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 10^th, 2006, 9:44pm

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info in the last post... I will add this to my spark plug change tomorrow morning and let you know how I get on.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 11^th, 2006, 7:58pm

Hi Chaps,

Didn't get much done today... Family stuff really messes up your weekend....

Changed the plugs and she seems to idle more smoothly - may just be subjective.

The MOT failure on emissions were for both fast idle tests.

First one
CO level should be less than 0.30% mine was 0.42%

Second one
CO level should be less than 0.30% mine was 0.44%

Just ran an obd11 scan and I have two error codes...
- P0141 - O2 Sensor Heater circuit malfunction - Bank 1 Sensor 2
- P0158 - O2 circuit high voltage Bank 2 Sensor 2

I have just read the catmonitor.htm page which gives loads of info.... So I am going to look at clearing these two codes before another £40 on another MOT

Any advice would be welcomed... Going to put the car on ramps now ready for the morning.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 11^th, 2006, 8:24pm

try puting cataclean through the fuel tank it will knock you co levels in half

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jun 12^th, 2006, 10:10am

Check the wiring to the sensors as this can chafe on the chassis and give a fault code, think I may currently have this problem and have similar codes.

A technique that some garages/owners use for clearing out the fuel system a bit is to take the car round the block (a mile or two) in 2nd gear at about 30mph. This would have the revs at about 3000-3500 ish and would blow it out a bit. On the 24v Scorpio you may have to put the 'box in 1 to get those revs - worth a go as you obviously can't go far at the moment.

Cheers

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 12^th, 2006, 7:26pm

Hi Chaps,

Cheers for the catclean tip John.... I will get some of that tomorrow...

Cheers Dave for the wire chaff tip.... I put the car back on the ramps this afternoon and bank one sensor two had a wire cut right through and one severly chaffed through the insulation.... Bank 2 sensor 2 plug was covered in oil and one of the pins looked corroded...

Cleaned then all up and fixed the bad wires.... went for a 5 mile normal run and both the OBD11 error codes have gone.....

So with the errors gone so the engine management will go into closed loop, the injector cleaner I put in yesterday and Johns tip for the CatClean I can hopefully get through the MOT when I fix the ABS fail problem.

Going to get a cup of tea then have a read of the ABS web pages then tackle the job..... Getting there slowly but surely.....

Post more soon.
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 12^th, 2006, 7:46pm

steve

this is what i found on web i have tried it myself
and it works
:) :)

How does Cataclean work?
It prevents and corrects faults caused by carbon deposit build-ups in injectors, valves, the cylinder head and the catalytic converter
Cataclean will help keep your engine running at it’s optimum performance
Simply pour it into your fuel tank
What benefits will I see with Cataclean?

You have improved fuel consumption giving you more miles to the gallon, therefore saving on fuel costs. It could cut your fuel cost by up to 20%
Reduce your exhaust emissions by up to 60% and help pass the emissions test on the MOT. Cars can fail there MOT if the exhaust emissions are too high.
Helps to protect the environment by reducing harmful exhaust emissions into the atmosphere.
A dirty catalytic converter may affect your engines power. By using Cataclean you will improve your cars power – enabling you to change gears less often.
Does Cataclean work on every car?

It is suitable for both petrol and diesel engines, turbo and non turbo with or without a catalytic converter.
You may not see improvements on non fuel injection engines, but won’t harm the engine
:) :)
what it dont say is you need to only have about 15lts of fuel in tank (it does on bottle) then do at least 15 miles in one go so it can get to work

i took my frontera when i had it to mates garage and emission levels were high put cataclean in and levels dropped while we had sensor up exhaust
i then took it for mot and the levels were lower still
i then took it to auto tune work shop had a diagnostic done on it to clear a few faults and it had dropped lower still

i use to get it from the web but my local parts place sells it for £14.99p

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 17^th, 2006, 10:05am

it seems to have gone quiet on the news front

any update please

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 18^th, 2006, 1:21pm

Hi Chaps,

Sorry for the quiet period, I had to make an unscheduled trip to Holland on business and only got back yesterday.

OK.... Ordered the Cataclean which should come on Monday... Took the Beast back for another MOT yesterday as I had fixed the ABS (rear wheel sensor) and put engine / injector cleaner through the system....

Emissions on fast idle still failed but down from 0.42% to 0.31% with a pass limit of 0.3% so almost there..... BUT.......

Failed on the near side indicator telltale lamp not flashing on the dashboard.... POXY requirement...

I thought the MOT was about mechanical safety and road worthyness... not ensuring a numpty driver has a dash light when indicating in case he forgets...

Just printed off the page for removing the dash to replace the lamp... Think I will chage all of them as it looks like it is a lot of work just to change one bulb... only to find another one goes a week later...

I think the dash is a job for tomorrow... Keep you posted and hope you all had a good weekend and the York meet was good if you went.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jun 19^th, 2006, 11:16pm

Don't lay the instrument cluster face down - keep it vertical whilst you work on it (there should be a label to that effect stuck to it). Also, several of the warning lights are actually LEDs soldered to the PCB and are not (easily) replaceable - nor should they ever need to be - however I think the tell-tales lights are good ole' fashioned filament bulbs with non-removable plastic bases.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 22^nd, 2006, 9:27pm

Hi Chaps,

Found time (and courage) today to take the dash to pieces and remove the instrument cluster..... Changed all the bulbs in the cluster for good measure and re-assembled.....

They all still work..... and the duff one.... Hooray Hooray....

Going to book another MOT tomorrow and will let you know how I get on....

Almost there now and fingers crossed....

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 23^rd, 2006, 3:07am

steve

fingers crossed

so when i get home from work you have posted its passed

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jun 26^th, 2006, 4:47pm

steve
any news yet on MOT

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 26^th, 2006, 8:24pm

Hi John,

MOT isn't booked until Thursday as I cant get the time off work until then to sort it out.....

Will let you all know as soon as there is news (good or bad)...

SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 8:04am

Hi Chaps,

Well.... What can I say..... She failed again... This time with the horn sounding like a "grating" noise...... They are taking the *******

Off to the scrappy to get a new horn this morning then book the re-test.....

Let you know the outcome later......

SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by martin_rowe on Jun 30^th, 2006, 8:28am

no stipulation in the MOT for what your horn sounds like or volume as long as its works when switched & the tone is constant.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Snoopy on Jun 30^th, 2006, 8:50am

Have a GOOD read of this or even print the relevant section out and take it with you ..... Might just help.

http://www.ukmot.com/6-2.asp

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 10:42am

Hi Chaps,

Thanks for the info on the horn.... I have another problem now......

When I was driving back from the MOT yesterday the ABS and Traction control lights came on and stayed on.

I took the multiplug off of the ABS control module and from there checked each of the wheel sensors using a multimeter.... Three of them showed about 1000 Ohms and one was open circuit (rear passanger). Lifted back seat and fault was between mutiplug and the sensor.... Took it off - no obvious cable issues so I went to the local scrappy and took one off a scapped scorpio.... Fitted the new (used) sensor and it now reads 1000 Ohms from the ABS control mudule multiplug.....

But the ABS and traction warning lights are still on.......?

From the ABS section on the web site I have read that the Teves MK 20 module needs a "factory" reset.

The questions I have are:-

- How do I tell if I have a Teves MK 20 ABS module?
- If I have this module would the traction control warning lamp also remain lit?

or do I have another problem as well..... This car WILL pass the MOT someday.

Thanks,
SteveS

PS - New horn fitted and sounds great.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 30^th, 2006, 10:50am

hi there

try disconnecting the battery for a few minutes. i've got the mk2.0 system. when my light came on (rolling road setup) it just took a disconnect and all was well again.

hth

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 10:59am

Cheers ScorpioMan,

I will disconnect the battery then go for a fried breakfast in the run around and reconect in about an hour.

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 2:08pm

Hi Guys,

Reconnected the battery and both the ABS and Traction control lights are lit.

Disconnected the multiplug from the ABS control unit and the Traction control light goes out BUT the ABS lamp stays lit ? ? ? ?

The wiring diag shows the ABS lamp (LED) being wired to pin 21 on the ABS control module so with the module unplugged it should not light...... However.... with the multiplug connected.... if I cut the wire at the multiplug (21) the ABS lamp goes out.

Very confussed....

I am going to disconnect the multiplug and check each of the eight sensor wires for connections to earth...

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 2:47pm

Hi Chaps,

The eight sensor wires are OK.

Checked all the pins for correct earths and power and all OK.

Have booked into FMD on Monday to get the ABS reset in case it is a treves mk20 unit - don't know how to tell....

Going to the pub for an afternoon beer as feeling LOW.......

The questions I have are:-

- How do I tell if I have a Teves MK 20 ABS module?
- If I have this module would the traction control warning lamp also remain lit?

or do I have another problem as well..... This car WILL pass the MOT someday.

Any one got any ideas as I am confussed....

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Mummra on Jun 30^th, 2006, 3:26pm

Hi Steve

When I had a problem with my ABS, the only way I was able to tell which system I had was through the wiring, they are wired slightly differently. I used the wiring diagrams HERE (http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/sierra_el.html) to determine which system I had.

I also had the Teves mk20 system with the ABS light staying on all the time, I did not have TC though. I did not have to get mine reset after fixing though, battery went flat and when I charged it back up the light was gone.

Dave

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 30^th, 2006, 3:32pm

hi there

they're a different shape.

the 2.3 in these photos has the mk2.0.

hth

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/technical.htm

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jun 30^th, 2006, 3:49pm

Pheee-yoooo

I'm catching up on three weeks posts. Great news that the Beast has started, just the MOT to go .

Must be costing a fortune on MOT re-tests, many garages do pre-test inspections to catch those piffling bulb/wiper/horn potential failures.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 7:09pm

Hi Chaps,

Thanks for the replies...... As you guys do........ Without the support of the site members I would have scrapped it weeks ago... THANKS CHAPS...

Dave, Thanks for the wiring diag info.. I hadn't seen the two types displayed on the page... I have just printed off and will compare them to check which I have and let you know.

The MOT's are expensive.... I have had three now and two re-tests.... Soon be there.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 7:13pm

Scorpio-Man,

Just checked the photos and mine is the same as the photo's of the 2.9 engine....

Which implies I have a real fault still and a FMD reset wont help as it is not a Teves MK20.

Where do I go from here? Any ideas?

SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 7:24pm

Hi Chaps,

I have reviewed both the wiring diags for the Teves MK20 and the Other....

I deffinetly do NOT have the Teves MK20 system....

So with all four sensors OK and measuring 1000 Ohms at the ABS multiplug, none of the wires to earth and all the Fuses OK....... Where do I look next?

Could the ABS module be faulty?

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jun 30^th, 2006, 8:24pm

I have the Teves MK IV system like I think you have and it has been a right b****** to trouble-shoot. Like you, I get a little over 1Kohm per sensor measured at the ABS multiplug, but the light stays on. I've tried another ABS module and same fault so problem is either wiring or sensor even though resistances appear to be fine.

Try testing for millivolts from each sensor with wheel stopped and rotating. This morning my ABS light was off all the way to work, tonight on way home it comes on above 15mph but not otherwise so is obviously a wheel sensor. I disconnected the battery and left it off overnight to reset my ABS module.

Incidentally the ABS light will be on permanently with the multiplug disconnected! It's bizarre but if you look at the multiplug you can see there's a metal clip thingy which shorts the warning light pin to earth (via the other pin) when it isn't plugged into the module. Think it might be deliberate so you can't just unplug the module to turn the light off...

My MOT isn't due until October and I'm going to be getting an oscilloscope soon so I'll be able to see exactly what each sensor is outputting. The fact your TC light also came on would indicate a rear sensor at fault. Try spraying each sensor with water then checking it's resistance/output voltage after a few minutes to see if it's changed at all.

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jun 30^th, 2006, 9:35pm

Hi Darren,

Thanks for the post... Some food for thought as they say......

I would agree with the rear wheels as a starting point as the traction control failure lamp is lit and always has been.

But as the thing is failing self test at ignition switch on. From what I understand this just looks to validate the sensors being present by looking for a 1000 Ohm resistance.

I will disconnect the battery now (before going to the pub) and try again in the morning when I will have time to think this through logically...... With the effort I have put in to get the Beast this far..... a "Simple" ABS fault must be solvable.

Update the post tomorrow.

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 1^st, 2006, 8:31am

Morning Chaps,

Re-connected the battery and both ABS and Traction Control warning lamps are still lit.

Going to review the wiring diag now and make a plan of action - any tips?

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jul 1^st, 2006, 12:09pm

Will lit dash warning lights for the ABS and TC lead to a MOT failure ?

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by fordcos on Jul 1^st, 2006, 12:31pm

ABS light instant fail

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jul 1^st, 2006, 5:49pm

Don't give up, the wheel sensors cause all sorts of problems and sometimes from switch-on without having moved at all!

This is history of my ABS problems for you to compare with:

1) ABS working fine. Jetwashed wheels and engine bay
2) ABS light on above 15mph
3) ABS light off (hot day)
4) ABS light on all the time. Disconnected battery overnight.
5) ABS light on, but will go off and stay off if ign. turned off/on whilst car rolling above >15mph (until next time).
6) Tried different ABS module from scrap car - no difference.
6) ABS light goes off briefly following self test then comes back on again within a second or two, car not moving.
7) ABS light off and working fine.
8) ABS light on above 15mph.
9) ABS light off and working fine.

There doesn't seem to be any pattern to the ABS light's operation except it is more likely to work fine on a hot day. I think you need to drive the car >15mph after replacing a sensor before it will turn the light off, but it seems an obstinate system at the best of times! >:(

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jul 1^st, 2006, 6:44pm

I wonder if deliberately activating the ABS system , braking hard on a gravel road or suchlike, might it reset the system and extinguish the warning light ?

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 1^st, 2006, 10:07pm

Hi Darren and Mr Floppy,

Seems I am not alone with the ABS thingy as per Darrens problems above...

I haven't moved the car since replacing the sensor so I will do so tomorrow and try Mr Floppy's idea..... To see if the ABS really does work...

Let you know how I get on..... I hope to beat Englands result to day with SteveS 1 MOT 0

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 2^nd, 2006, 9:37am

Hi Chaps,

Darren you are a "diamond" with the last post..... Took the beast out this morning for a road test as suggested and at 15 MPH the ABS and Traction Control warning lights went out and now operate correctley.

All the listed faults are now rectifiied so it's back for another MOT.... The only thing I cant check myself is the emissions...... but I have used injector cleaner and done 20 Miles and then put a can of "Cataclean" in with the remaining three gallons of fuel and done another 20 Miles so I need to see how I get on at the MOT.

I think my local MOT station opens on Sunday with a no appointment arrangement..... I will go and see after I get back from clay pigeon shooting....

Feeling much more positive now.... update you when more news is avaliable....

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Kjetil S on Jul 2^nd, 2006, 11:24am

Fingers crossed!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by scorpioghia on Jul 2^nd, 2006, 1:38pm

did it pass ???????????

dont keep us in suspence is it a party or a funeral ;)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 2^nd, 2006, 3:03pm

Hi Guy's,

Couldn't fit me in so it is booked in for 08:30 on Tuesday..... Watch this space about 10 ish on Tuesday....

SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Snoopy on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 7:09am

One bit of advice make sure the cats are fully hot before taking it for a test.. If possible give it a good run at high revs even up to rev limiter to clean out any residual rubbish.
Worth taking a slight detour just to do that .

I always give mine a good run before taking it for test.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 7:25am

Hi Snoopy,

Good idea..... Will take it on the long route via the dual carriageway and lock it in a low gear (will 10 miles be enough to get it "hot" ) .

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Snoopy on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 7:33am

OH YES that should do I usually give it blast in 2nd up to rev limiter and then drive normally . Maybe its just physcological but it gives me confidence in the system.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 4^th, 2006, 10:58am

Depressed..... Failed on emissions at fast idle....

They were worse than last time..... Even though I have since used some injector cleaner and the "cataclean" cat cleaner....

Emissions at fast idle should be less than 0.3%

Last time there were 0.42%
This time they were 0.51%

Going to do another OBD11 scan to look for any errors then ? ? ? ? dont know what..... any ideas what to do or where to look ?

Cheers,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Kjetil S on Jul 4^th, 2006, 5:34pm

The cats themselves?
Oil leaking into the combustion chamber?

(Just ideas though, FAR from an expert on the areas)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 4^th, 2006, 6:20pm

Hi Chaps,

Checked the OBD11 port and no error codes..... Found some cats from the link on this site for about £70 each plus Vat..... Local Kwik Fit want £300 each... Am I looking at the right things, the picture looks the same, or do the exhaust people just make a massive markup?

I've looked through the Ford TIS CD I have and the removal / fitting looks OK assuming no bolts or studs shear....

Any one got any advice on CAT changes easy / hard / horror?

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by sector-9 on Jul 4^th, 2006, 11:54pm

It could be the O2 sensor(s) themselves (especially as you've had trouble with them already), such as reacting too slowly which they tend to do as they get old. Perhaps this could explain the fail at fast idle but not at base idle? I don't think the emissions are failing by that much so it may not need the cats replacing.

I can't really suggest any tests for them but IIRC a healthy one should give a 'switching' output between high and low at least once a second. You'll probably want an oscilloscope to compare the switching speed of each though I suppose an analogue multimeter may suffice. Even better, if you can find anybody with a laptop and OBD-II software/lead then you may be able to extract real-time sensor values from the ECU which could help. Unfortunately my knowledge of such is very limited.

In any case, it's considered good practice to replace O2 sensor(s) whenever fitting a new cat...

Darren

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 5^th, 2006, 12:20pm

Hi Darren,

I will have a look at the outputs from the O2 sensors just to see what is happening. I have a laptop with OBD11 software on which I have used so far when the car is stationary... I will take it for a spin with a mate and run it dynamically to what happens.

I am going to take the car for a 20 mile run at 70 mph then back into the MOT place to have the emissions checked again..... It may not have been hot enough yesterday as I was running a bit late and didn't go that far.

If I can get the emissions down before end of play today they will issue an MOT without the full retest.

Let you know what happens later.
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jul 5^th, 2006, 12:27pm

PM sent Steve

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jul 5^th, 2006, 2:40pm

Good luck Steve, on the edge of my seat here!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 5^th, 2006, 5:29pm

Hi Chaps,

Still no good.... Emissions exactley the same.....

But on the good side I now know the car will run at 5,500 RPM for 21 miles without blowing up or liquid squirting out anywhere......

I guess I've got to look at the O2 sensors and Cats now...... Shame I don't know which "side" is causing the problem......

I think tomorrow I will look at extending the wiring for the O2 sensors as suggested by Darren and looking at the "switching" on my oscilloscope to try to see a problem with one of them.....

Any other idea's chaps....

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Highlander on Jul 5^th, 2006, 6:07pm

Another PM sent Steve

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave2302 on Jul 5^th, 2006, 8:15pm

Hi, you dont need to extend wiring on your Lambda's, your OBD software and lead should allow you to check the fuel trim left and right thus you can see if it is just one side playing up and identify which one. Regards, Dave

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jul 6^th, 2006, 12:21am

The Cosworth's devilishly complicated EGR and EVAP systems malfunctions can lead to emissions probs.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 6^th, 2006, 7:45am

Hi Mr Floppy,

If I had problems with the EGR or EVAP systems would I get OBD11 error codes for problems or would I have to know how it all worked to diagnose issues.

I've never worked on either of these systems as I have spent my time on starting the beast and working through all the electrical problems so far.

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jul 6^th, 2006, 9:34am

Check the wiring to the sensors on the exhaust as they have been known to chafe through which will cause problems and may not show any errors!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by scorpio_man on Jul 7^th, 2006, 9:32am

hi steve

see my reply to this post..... http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1152175961;start=0#8

hth

you would need all 4 lambda's and both ltft's.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 7^th, 2006, 2:00pm

Hi Scorpio_man,

Read the post and will do the scan as suggested... Only problem is my OBD11 software isn't the VE you guys all recomend and wont let me do all you suggest.

This morning I ordered the triple lead set from Alex Peper in the states and when it arrives I will complete my tasks.

Going to check the O2 sensor cabling this afternoon as suggested by Dave, clean the MAF and look for any loose pipes etc as I guess these could all effect the running of the engine and influence the final emission output?

Cheers,
SteveS

Will let you know

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jul 7^th, 2006, 2:04pm

Loose EGR pipes and vacuum pipes can affect running and emissions as far as I am aware.

Another quick thought Steve, have you changed the oil? Dirty oil can send emissions sky high. As the car has been sitting around it would need a change straight away followed shortly by another :)

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 7^th, 2006, 2:07pm

Hi Dave,

Not changed the oil.... Will look through the site for the correct type and do that this afternoon... Any supprises with the oil change? ? ? Do I need a new plug or seals? ? ?

Thanks,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jul 7^th, 2006, 2:13pm

Ooooh thought you had for some reason. Shouldn't need a new plug but do be careful with the old one as people have had trouble with them rounding occasionally.

Oil filter access is a bit tight with a cross member near it but it isn't too bad and doesn't require anything beyond a chain wrench unless it is REALLY tight then put a screwdriver through it 8).

You just need fresh oil, filter and sump plug washer which I think is plastic! Prices from FMD for the filter and washer are the same as motor factors so might aswell go there if it is near.

In the 24v you should ideally use fully synthetic, something like 5/30w or 10/40w but everyone has their own preference. I actually 10/40w semi synthetic as I am not sure what the car has run on in the past, in my situation fully synthetic could cause leaks.

My suggestion would be a good quality semi synthetic then change it again in about 100 miles when it has got all the crud in suspension.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jul 7^th, 2006, 5:00pm

Obviously if it's burning oil due to engine wear it'll never pass the emissions test.

No clouds of blue smoke on cold start-up or acceleration I hope ? :-*

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 7^th, 2006, 7:07pm

Boys and Girls - The Beast of Bodmin has PASSED it's MOT........

One of the rear O2 sensors had some more ify cabling... Replaced and went for retest..... Emissions just scraped through at 0.28%

Doing an oil change now as it's been driven for 21 miles twice at 5,500 RPM with 3 year old oil in it..... And just had the car washed as a present for passing... Need to find out where the oil filter is as I have a new one to fit.

Get the tax tomorrow and wait for the next problem to start a new thread...

Thanks again for all your support and advice through these troubled times....

SteveS signing off from this thread..... Until next time (probably tomorrow) with the next chapter.

Thanks,
SteveS.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Kjetil S on Jul 7^th, 2006, 7:47pm

You should give it a goooood coat of polish as well. It deserves it now as it has been a good girl ;D

Congratulations, mate!

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Simmo on Jul 7^th, 2006, 7:50pm

Well done Steve !. This must be the longest running,most watched thread for a long time. Good luck. You certainly deserve it!.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by john_smiffy on Jul 7^th, 2006, 7:57pm

congratulations bet your a happy bunny now

http://www.heathersanimations.com/fireworks/13.gif http://www.heathersanimations.com/fireworks/14.gif

http://www.heathersanimations.com/Transportland/auto110.gif

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by Dave on Jul 7^th, 2006, 8:03pm

Woo hooooo ;D ;D ;D

Good man, well done indeed!!!

And three cheers for the beast!!!

Nice work Steve, enjoy driving her :D

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by mr._floppy on Jul 7^th, 2006, 8:15pm

I've a feeling we'll be hearing a lot more from Steve, :'(

The Beast will be back ! ( is there a 666 on its VIN ? )

Reminds me of that Stephen King film Christine.

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 7^th, 2006, 9:12pm

Thanks for all the messages chaps....

I have put my name on the list for the meet in Hayling Island at the end of the month and hope to see some of you down there ? ?

Cheers,
SteveS

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by macw on Jul 13^th, 2006, 12:00pm

Steve,

I have the same problem on my 2.3 did you manage to get your moved. They want £150-£200 to replace the tensioner at my local garage. The belt squeels when it is warm. I tried to move the tensioner with a 20cm spanner but it just lifted the engine. If anyone has experience with stuck tensioners like where to oil, is it safe to hit it with a hammer etc this would be much appreciated

Mark

Title: Re: 2.9 24V Cosworth wont start - No Spark at the
Post by SteveS on Jul 14^th, 2006, 10:37pm

Hi Mark,

I didn't get the tensioner to move more than a few mm ..... I managed to get the crank sensor off with it in place - sorry not much help on the tensioner.

SteveS
PS Got a few strange gear box issues to look at but my new OBD11 three interface lead arrived from the states today so tomorrow is load the VE software and battle with the USB to Com converter and see what I find wrong.... Will do a new post if (ho ho ho) I have need of your vast experience chaps.