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        General >> Problems >> Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
        
(Message started by: Baw_Flinger on May 25^th, 2006, 9:37am)

Title: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 25^th, 2006, 9:37am

Serious traffic going in to work this morning and hit a stationary spell for a good 30 mins. All of a sudden, massive amount of steam beltching out of the engine bay, the temp gauge was a bit higher so pulled over and switched off. Under the bonnet, massive amount of coolant dumped and sprayed all over everything on the left hand side of the bay. The coolant bottle has not lost anything but the top pipes are empty and full of air. Also, no mayo in bottle or engine dipstick, so I hope the HG is OK as it never went anywhere near red. Car starts and runs well, then temp gauge starts to rise at a moderate pace on a 1 min turn over I hope it is just a pipe but would a stuck thermostat cause a pressure build up? Any ideas of possable causes? I need to get shares at the Early Learning Center at the rate I am going.

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 25^th, 2006, 9:44am

OK just had a read on the main site at the fault finder (should know better ::)) This is all beyond me so I have my mechanic on his way. Will look at thermostat, rad blockage etc from fault finder. Anybody have any specific experience with this one that may help?
Cheers in advance.

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by jonnycab on May 25^th, 2006, 10:02am

I had a similar problem but mine was slightly more serious. My fan sensor blew out of the manifold along with all the water. On closer inspection the manifold had a crack in it right where the fan sensor fitted in. The sensor had been stuck in with filler by the previous owner.
If there is coolant all over the left hand side of engine bay then the thermostat/fan sensor/temp sender part of the manifold seems like a good place to look.

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by tintin on May 25^th, 2006, 10:12am

i had very similar on my cossie, it was the rubber pipe leading to thermostat. was fine until i hit big traffic, then the pipe would swell and start leaking, steam from the passenger side of the engine, but not massive water loss. let it cool down, topped it up, drove it home no problems, no leaks (explain that one to the AA man ;D)

mine was a pain to get to, had to take the manifold off to repair, might be easier on the 2.3

hope this helps.....

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by bizzay1 on May 25^th, 2006, 11:15am

when my hg went the temp only rose slightly above the middle of the gauge, eventually found it was caused by the inlet manifold being cracked just behind the thermostat housing

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 25^th, 2006, 12:37pm

Just spoke to my bloke and he found a ripped hose. He has checked the thermostat and that is OK. The new hose is on its way to him this afternoon so we wont know if anything is assunder until he gets that on, fill up and pressure test..... The stress is killing me >:(
Thanks guys for the info so far!!

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 25^th, 2006, 3:46pm

Yup, hose only :) Thank goodness but he has advised me to replace most of the coolant hoses as they are all borderline (cracking/balooning). I would advise anyone to check theirs if they have never done so, before the really hot weather comes in :o

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Dave on May 25^th, 2006, 6:43pm

Phew :) - and good tip about checking the hoses!

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 25^th, 2006, 8:35pm

Not only that mate, I came across a wee gem of info from him today. He brought it round and we went for a run and a few more tests. He was not happy with the pressure build up in the system and pointed out that my thermostat was not a Ford one. Apparently the Ford part has a 3mm hole on the rim that helps prevent over pressure when the engine runs really hot. He took out the thermostat and put a 3mm hole in and was happy with the pressure after that. Now, I maybe dont know enough about problems like this but is this not the type of over pressure problem that causes balooning rads in the 24v. As I said, this is probably nonsense on my part but just a thought, was certaily enough to blow a 3" hole in an old hose. Need to check the levels tomorrow, but I think I am up and running now. :)

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by sector-9 on May 25^th, 2006, 11:03pm

Some aftermarket themostats do have a hole in the rim already - usually there is a small 'jiggle' pin fitted loosely to stop it getting blocked up with deposits and scale.

The hole isn't there to stop pressure build up (not exactly) as when the engine is hot the thermostat should be fully open anyway. What the hole is for is to help bleed the system; when you fill it up it is cold and thermostat closed, so it is possible to get an airlock behind it, which means that it may not warm up and open as quick as it should. This is most likely when the thermostat is fitted horizontally as on the old Kent engines though...

Darren

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by jonnycab on May 26^th, 2006, 1:36am

I have found that I have to buy genuine Ford thermostats as the after market ones will not fit in the housing....they are always slightly larger in diameter & once you have stretched the rubber ring around them they just won't squeeze in.

Also Baw...the pipe that was replaced...was it the one that goes from the thermostat housing to the heater matrix? & was it just split or was it ballooned as well?

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 26^th, 2006, 8:19am

Ahhhhh, I picked that up wrong then (had been a very long day) thanks :) Yup, that was the very fellow. Most of it did not look balooned but then again it was completely torn from one end up about 3" and wide open, so hard to say. I cant aford to get all of the hoses done at the moment but the one that needs doing is that large fat one with the little hose that comes off the center and goes into the expansion bottle. This is well swollen and totaly balooning out, but I didnt know any better before.

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 26^th, 2006, 11:58am

Does anyone know the name and part number for the number 2 hose on this diagram? This is the one that looks like a comedy balloon animal in mine and needs replacing ASAP :o

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f274/M249MINIMI/cooldohc.jpg

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by sector-9 on May 27^th, 2006, 11:53am

Radiator top-hose by the look of it.

Title: Re: Help - more toys all over the floor
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 27^th, 2006, 9:44pm

Thanks.

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 28^th, 2006, 6:21pm

Bad, bad, bad!!! Out on a run today and stuck in traffic, bloody thing starts overheating again!! So it would seem that the burst hose was a symptom of an underlying problem.
Is the top rad hose (as above) ment to be rock solid (causing balooning)? My mechanic warned last week that he was not happy with the pressure in that hose, said it should not be that hard. I called him today and I need to get it round to him in the morn. He does not sound to hopefull and recons there is defo something causing a build up in the system which could point to a crack or HGF :( :( Wont know until proper tests are done. After that, I checked the oil and it is gunk free as is the bottle. The oil was quite low and I topped it up, on a run (getting back home) right after the temp gauge ran a bit hot but all of a sudden it dropped about a quarter of the way to blue then rose to normal and stayed there ??? I bled the system, refill and re-bled to death and as a test, removed the thermostat and ran the car. Took for a spin until running temp, then let it run at a standstill for 15 mins. The coolling fans run as normal but I could not get the temp to raise over midway ??? ??? The top pipe was rock solid though, so again, is this normal?

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by jonnycab on May 29^th, 2006, 12:13am

How warm are the pipes going to & from the heater matrix?
In this warm? weather we don't tend to use the heating to much. Turn the heating on max & see if it blows red hot air. If not then it could be that the matrix has a blockage or a very minute leek. A blockage will cause extra pressure on the manifold around the thermostat area, & a leak will let in air & cause alot of bubbling.
I recently had the same kind of problem & after back flushing the matrix a few times the problem still occured. I eventually replaced the heater matrix & on inspecting the old matrix, noticed green gunge at the top (where the pipes go in). This was obviously where the air was getting in but there was never any evidence of leakage in the car, or a smell of anti-freeze.
P.S. my temp guage used to be erratic until I replaced the heater matrix...& now it's fine.

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by mr._floppy on May 29^th, 2006, 12:44am

Just a thought, it is the 4 pot isn't it ?, as the the top rad hose has the T junction to the expansion tank, could it be a faulty expansion tank pressure cap not lifting to allow pressurised water to escape thus causing a " hard " hose and subsequent ballooning ?

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by jonnycab on May 29^th, 2006, 12:48am

You could try a new expansion tank cap....I did...& it made no difference.
So I've got a decent spare cap.

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by sector-9 on May 29^th, 2006, 7:25pm

The cap on the expansion tank is actually a two-way pressure sensitive valve. It's designed to open at a specified positive pressure to protect the system from damage. Also, it will open if any negative pressure (i.e. vacuum caused when the liquid cools and contracts) - normally the pressure generated isn't high enough to blow the valve so there is no vacuum when it cools down (as none has been lost). However, if the pressure becomes so great that the valve opens to relieve it, then when the system cools down it will 'suck' air back in through the cap to balance what was lost.

The system is pressurised because it is sealed until the relief valve opens and as the coolant heats up it expands which compresses the air in the system. The rise in pressure raises the boiling point of the water and makes the hoses go hard - of course, you can run the cooling system with the cap off but the boiling point will then be lower than it would if pressurised and there is a high chance of sloshing hot coolant out of the filler neck...

So, the valve in the cap should open before the pressure becomes so high it damages hoses and stuff.

Darren

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 29^th, 2006, 7:34pm

Thanks guys :). The heater matrix is behaving as it should. I am going to try a new cap and thermostat and see how I get on. We ran it today for a long time before the pressure built up(normaly as soon as the coolant is hot), this is with the center of the thermostat cut out. Could not do a HG test as his gear was on the blink but he said that it should be running crap if it had went, but we'll see. So I'll stick those on order with my new top hose and see how it goes, will keep posted. Money, money, money......

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 31^st, 2006, 6:07pm

OK, now I think I am in trouble :( Today I replaced; thermostat, top rad hose, expansion bottle & cap.
Still no change: Over Pressure in hoses, temp gauge rises a bit above the top squigle line on the temp marking as soon as I am standing still for anything more than a few minutes, which NEVER happend before. Fans kick in, but from then on its a constant battle for the system to keep it under control unless I hit open road then it will go down slowly. Gauge does not rise on a run, only when stopped.
A few times when working on the system, there has been bubbling in the bottle but not today after a run with the new parts and the coolant levels are good. Now, this has been right after a re-fill. Do you need to completly drain the system each time? So far, and I carried on from there, my mechanic has just poped the top rad hose/inlet thermostat housing and let it run out until empty, then re-fill, then let bubble over a bit (reving engine,fans kick in), then top-up. Is this correct? I really dont know about this side of things so I just replicated what my guy was doing when replacing the parts today. Also, I am now running on mostly water through all the 'F'ing about until the problem was sorted then was going to re-fill with the correct mix. Judging by the amount of rust that has come out, I recon that it was mostly water that was in there anyway to begin with. I suppose this is bad? >:( ::)

Mmmmmf, help.........

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by sector-9 on May 31^st, 2006, 9:06pm

Assuming radiator fans both run in the correct direction (i.e. pulling air through from the front) then they should be sufficient to keep the engine cool, even running at low speed. If they stay running for anything over a minute, or step up to full speed then I'd say that the radiator is blocked internally. This could also be the cause of overpressuring, but if it was that bad I'd expect your mechanic to have noticed.

For some reason, my diesel fans ran in opposite directions with one pushing and one pulling. Needless to say, I reversed the polarity to the one that was pushing and now when they come on they go off again within about 20secs so I know that they and the radiator are doing their jobs.

Darren

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 31^st, 2006, 9:24pm

Thanks, but both fans come on for less than 1 min and behave as they should. Cheers. mmfffff......

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on May 31^st, 2006, 10:07pm

PS. Sorry, but I have had the scorp for 6 months now and only just started with this type of shenanigans.....

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by jonnycab on Jun 1^st, 2006, 12:11pm

Just a thought...but have you looked at the water pump. If it isn't working (broken impellor) then I suppose it would overheat in traffic as the water isn't being pumped around. Alot of rust could also be an indication of the water pump impellor blades being completely shot.

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on Jun 1^st, 2006, 8:45pm

Brand new water pump put in about a month ago :(

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Baw_Flinger on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 10:16am

Just had pressure test done, not a happy bunny. It all points to HGF............ >:( >:( >:( >:( I have totaly had it with this F***in car!! Thats about £1k I've spent on it in the last 6 months since I got the damed thing and now this. Need to make some serious decisions today....... :(

Title: Re: Help - more toys, BIGGER PROBLEM!!
Post by Dave on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 10:23am

:( Sorry to hear that :(