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        General >> Problems >> Advice on diesel engine needed
        
(Message started by: sector-9 on May 29^th, 2006, 7:35pm)

Title: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by sector-9 on May 29^th, 2006, 7:35pm

Does anybody know what grade of oil should be used in the VM diesel? I've put 15W40 in it which I believe is correct, but the engine is very noisy and doing lousy mpg so I'm wondering if I'm using too thick a viscosity?

I towed my small caravan up to Leeds this weekend and it couldn't manage the hills in fifth gear. Now it's only a small caravan with nothing loaded into it, the boot almost empty and nobody in car but me. The caravan weighs around 650Kg and the hills I'm referring to are the gradients on the M1 - nothing that steep. Not only was it disappointingly gutless, it also drank fuel so fast that half a tank wasn't enough to tow 190 miles.

This isn't good - my main reason for having this car was the expected better economy and towing ability but so far it's been a real disappointment (even when not towing) and I'm seriously considering selling it and buying a smaller car. Ideally I'd like to take it to a diesel specialist and let them figure out what's wrong. At only 78K miles I'd have thought it'd just be an adjustment or injector clean rather than new parts but I can't afford to throw money at it unless I can be certain of curing it's drinking habit... :'(

Darren

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by Highlander on May 29^th, 2006, 7:57pm

what sort of mpg are you getting with it?

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by Kjetil S on May 29^th, 2006, 8:44pm

This chart (http://www.fastford.no/upload/smorekart.gif) says 0W40 for all Scorpios.

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by taliban on May 29^th, 2006, 8:55pm

i think the book figures for the diesel are 26-30mpg round town and up to 40mpg on a run. but, book figures are never real world, my 2.5td is on 144000 miles and gives a return of around 24mpg commuting, but around 33-38mpg on a run.
mine however does have a bit of a smoking problem (only under acceleration) which i've tried curing with new filters, injector cleaners etc, next step is to clean the EGR, hopefully that'll sort it and i might get better mpg....

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by scorpio_man on May 29^th, 2006, 9:03pm

hi darren

i'd try a 10w-40 diesel oil.

re performance. is the turbo holding boost?

have you seen the tsb about the smoke issue?

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by taliban on May 29^th, 2006, 9:05pm

im sure my scorpio handbook says 15w 40 for the 2.5td, however, i cant see it hurting trying 0, 5 or 10w 40.
oil changes arent cheap though, with filter change it holds something like 6.6 litres if i remember correctly, it also has 2 sump plugs.....

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by taliban on May 29^th, 2006, 9:06pm

tsb? what be that then?

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by taliban on May 29^th, 2006, 9:08pm

how do you know if the turbo is holding boost? or if it works for that matter...

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by Simmo on May 29^th, 2006, 9:16pm

I think Andrew means a 'Technical Service Bulletin' which is an 'alert' or notification to dealers about specific problems with a particular car.

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by scorpio_man on May 29^th, 2006, 9:45pm

pm's sent regarding tsb.

hth

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by sector-9 on May 29^th, 2006, 10:16pm

Thanks for the TSB - unfortunately I've already seen it and it only covers the 'new' (125BHP) diesel engine, not the earlier one which mine is.

I'm getting around 30mpg commuting and probably 32mpg or slightly more on motorways at 70mph so it looks to be par for the course. Still disappointing for a diesel though...

I remember somebody (mazzyj?) saying they got >40mpg on a steady motorway run at about 65mph so I assumed mine was somehow not quite right. Problem is, I've never seen or heard another diesel Scorp to compare mine with - hopefully somebody will have one at Harewood?

Turbo is definitely working and once up to about 2200rpm it can tow even in fifth gear without losing too much pace. Unfortunately this is about 70mph which is illegal and doing 60mph the revs are below 2000 so the engine quickly runs out of steam on the hills. In fourth gear it's fine and doesn't slow down at all on the hills, but then it's noisy and uses a lot of fuel considering it's not fantastic to begin with.

I'll try changing to a thinner grade of oil next month, but I'm not expecting it to make much of a difference. To be honest, if I can only expect mpg in the thirties then I have to wonder what to point of it is. I'm seriously considering going back to a Rover 414 which does roughly the same mileage, copes with the same weight caravan, but costs less in tax and insurance.

So does anyone want to swap (or buy) a low mileage diesel Scorpio? Basic model but got satc, cruise and e/windows/sunroof.

Darren

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by mazzy_j on May 30^th, 2006, 11:57am

Quote:

I remember somebody (mazzyj?) saying they got >40mpg on a steady motorway run at about 65mph

Yes that would be me. I'll be at Harewood so you can have a gander around mine, take it for a drive and see how it compares.

I use 10W40 ('Ford XR' i think its branded) oil, get it on discount from Ford's at about £8ish (can't remember exactly) for £5L, much cheaper and better quality than Halfords on brand stuff. If you want I could get you all the Ford service bits for you're diesel on the cheap (50% off most things) if you're interested.

I also have many a spare VM engine part, injectors, injector pump, pushrods, camshaft, flywheel... basically a stripped down engine sitting in my garage you could always try bits from.

Matt

p.s. Just a thought, have you tried checking to see if any of the brakes are binding, or a 'sticky handbrake'?

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by mazzy_j on May 30^th, 2006, 12:26pm

Taliban, not quite sure how one goes about cleaning the EGR but i've disconnected mine completely and it certainly pulls stronger without it ;D If you want to see the negative effects of the EGR take the big pipe off going into the inlet manifold and shine a torch inside... It won't be pretty.

Diesels have a tendancy to smoke anyways under heavy acceleration, a puff of black smoke is normal just so long as its not blue smoke which = trouble :(

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by taliban on May 31^st, 2006, 9:21pm

i take it the EGR is easy to remove/blank then without causing any damage?
mine gives out more smoke than it should (i've had diesels before), but it burns absolutely no engine oil which is a good sign. i'll try losing the EGR, if that doesnt help then i might have to look at the injectors, they might need re setting or replacing, i hope not as they're about 50 quid a piece for recon :'(

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by mazzy_j on Jun 1^st, 2006, 9:21am

Blocking the EGR really is an easy peesy job. Looking at picture look for a silver looking thing on the side of the inlet manifold connected by a small pipe from the exhaust manifold (left side of engine). Pull off the little black pipe on the silver EGR componant and stick a screw (what i did) in the end of the hose. This hose is a vacume hose which when the engine is under certain loads will pull on a diaphram in the EGR and so letting the exhaust gasses into the inlet manifold. Try it, see how it goes :)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d94/mazzy_j/turbo3.jpg

Matt

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by DazRSK on Jun 1^st, 2006, 10:53am

Mazzy_j - I have just bought an oil burner a few months back. The pipe you mention about disconnecting from the EGR - in the picture, I can see 3 black pipes running up to (probably near to) the EGR. I guess you are highlighting the centre one pipe which goes to the front edge of the EGR (under top EGR bolt and to right of bottom bolt) ?

Also, will there not be any adverse long term affects by disconnecting this ?

The other question I have for all of you with oil burners - I have just noticed more "unusual" sounds coming from the turbo, under boost, just recently. I am sure that when I bought the car a couple of months back, dependant on rpm/amount of throttle, the turbo spun up but tended to keep a constant, but progessively higher pitch whistle as rpm increased. What I am getting now is under light throttle, a constant pitched whistle can be heard but as I put the foot down, the note changes to a higher pitch but then fluctuates - like, I guess, a bird chirruping, if you pardon the explanation. There is no smoke from the back and it's not using any oil but I am just concerned that the turbo is about to expire. However, under light throttle, it seems to be the usual constant whistle. Have any of you experienced this sound ? What are your thoughts ? It is bizarre, as I have never heard a turbo fluctuate its pitch so erratically.

Thanks for your help

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by mazzy_j on Jun 1^st, 2006, 11:15am

Hi there, the vacume pipe is the one labelled in the bottom most right of the picture, it attaches to the silver 'flying saucer' shaped part on the EGR 'diaphram'. Mine's been disconnected for about 3k miles with no adverse effects, the reason i disconnected it was actually because of the adverse effects of having it connected! All the EGR does is dump the waste exaust gasses back into the inlet manifold (supposedly to reduce NoX emmisions i believe), so basically the engine is eating its own poo :-X With it disconnected it means that 100% fresh air reaches the cylinders which will then in turn burn better :)

A high pitch whistle usual indicates turbo bearing wear :( However, mine whistles (more of a quiet whistling/whoosh sound) when the turbo comes on boost and has done this for the 11k miles i've had the car. Bearing in mind my car has upwards of 217,000 miles on it i suppose its to be expected. A regular oil and filter change will help keep the turbo in top condition, i also leave the car for about 10secs at idle before switching off to let the turbo slow down.

Matt

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by DazRSK on Jun 1^st, 2006, 11:56am

Thanks for your advice, Matt.

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by sector-9 on Jun 1^st, 2006, 10:09pm

If the turbo seems to be cycling up/down then that could be because of the EGR valve opening (though it shouldn't except on light throttle or idle), or possibly the wastegate (bypass valve which opens at a set pressure to protect the engine and turbo) is set too low and opening before it should..?

Darren

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by DazRSK on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 12:27am

I have done some more analysis on this turbo issue this evening. Disconnecting the front turbo pipe, I felt the shaft for play on the bearing and to be honest, it's pretty good. Also, by spinning it in my hand, I could not feel any courseness.

I spoke to a turbo reconditioning place today and they have suggested looking for leaks in any of the intake pipes and the manifold gaskets. So I took the Scorpio down the road merely for a few hundred yards with the front turbo pipe disconnected and proved no leaks in the intake pipework, because it continued to do this fluttering. I haven't checked the gaskets but I am sure you would hear if there was a leak there.

I was probably over-stating the noise in my previous posting - it isn't that bad but is noticeable and is just a whistle/whoosh. To be honest, on light throttle, you can hardly hear it. But I am concerned by this cycling up and down.

Darren - how do I check those items you have mentioned, short of replacing them ?

Thanks

Daren

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by mazzy_j on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 9:51am

To check the EGR is working open the bonnet and rev the engine , and you should see the 'membrane' on the back of the EGR move in and out as it opens and closes the valve depending on the engine revs.

Matt

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by DazRSK on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 10:31am

Matt - thanks for this bit of advice. Whilst working in this area under the bonnet last night, I took your advice of disconnecting the vacuum pipe from the EGR and left it off. I can't tell at the moment whether it has made a difference - tbh, I would like to resolve this other issue which is clouding my mind at the mo.

Now since I have disconnected this pipe, will this have an affect on the membrane i.e. disconnecting this pipe doesn't manually override the movement of the membrane, does it ? I'm sure it probably doesn't but I thought I would check. Afterall, it's no good me going out there looking for movement which I have already prevented.

Sorry - I know these questions maybe dumb - I know what the EGR valve does, but as to its operation/how it operates, I'm beaten. I know that if I look in the tech pages on this site, there is a lot of stuff about it. Just haven't got around to reading it yet.

Thanks again.

Daren

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by sector-9 on Jun 3^rd, 2006, 3:35pm

Assuming the EGR valve itself hasn't seized partially open (unlikely) then with the vacuum hose removed it will stay firmly closed.

The wastegate looks very similar, but smaller, and you can get to it by removing the furry heat shield from around the turbocharger - it will be mounted on the turbo itself and have a short pipe connecting it's diaphragm assembly to the output from the turbo.

The correct way to test this is to disconnect the pipe from the turbo outlet and attach a hand pump and pressure gauge. Note what pressure opens the wastegate and compare with the spec (which we don't have). You can adjust it via the threaded link rod between the diaphragm and the wastegate valve itself; though turbos aren't my speciality and I could be wrong...

Darren

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by mazzy_j on Jun 5^th, 2006, 10:19am

As Darren says, with the vacuum hose disconnected it will stay closed. I've just been reading up a bit more about EGR and found this which (if you're interested) goes into a bit more of the theoretical side of things: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=243418&f=66&h=0

Matt

Title: Re: Advice on diesel engine needed
Post by DazRSK on Jun 5^th, 2006, 11:28am

Guys - thanks for your advice. Plenty of things now to go on.

With the wastegate - what I may do is take the car to a turbo specialist where they may be able to check the wastegate. Once I get into checking the pressure, I am not sure what I am checking it against - ie as soon as I have a reading, will this be good/bad/OK ?

With the EGR - what I might do is reconnect the vacuum hose to prove to myself it is working, then disconnect again once I am comfortable that the EGR is shut.

Thanks guys - this has been very helpful. Matt - thanks for sending the link. I shall take a look at this shortly.