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        General >> Problems >> Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
        
(Message started by: RebGershon on May 30^th, 2006, 9:01pm)

Title: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on May 30^th, 2006, 9:01pm

Can someone tell me how to get to the timing chain- to see if its come off sprockets following severe death rattle and now non-start-without an engine out job.

I don't want to try turning over the engine incase I do more damage.

TIA

Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Simmo on May 30^th, 2006, 9:31pm

Have you read this ?.http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/timingchain29.htm. One big job by the looks of it.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on May 30^th, 2006, 9:58pm

Too big a job for my limited skills but thanks for the link. Maybe its time to sell the car for parts!
Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on May 31^st, 2006, 9:37am

Could you not just take off the inlet manifolds (30 mins work, few screws and 6 bolts) to get to and remove the camshaft covers to see if the chains are still on the sprockets?

EDIT I notice you are in Manchester, whereabouts roughly?

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on May 31^st, 2006, 6:01pm

Dave,
I could try your suggestion if thats all that I would need to do. Would I need to replace any gaskets before reassembly?

I live in Prestwich about 5 mins south of Jct 17 of the M60. Are you local?

Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on Jun 1^st, 2006, 1:15pm

Not far away mate, about 10 miles south of Manchester, down the A34 in Wilmslow.

My brother stripped all this gubbins off mine a few months ago to sort a wiring fault (non start) and it isn't difficult at all.

He chose not to replace the gaskets until we knew if it would fire up. It ran fine but we then took the inlets off again and replaced them as we knew the engine was ok (car was likely to be broken for bits if it hadn't have started then!).

Basically, if you can get to look at the camshafts you should see the chain going over 2 wheels. If it is either not there, or is slack then you have a big problem.

What exactly happened when this noise occurred? Where you driving? Did you try and restart the engine? Did it sound normal or turn over more quickly?

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 1^st, 2006, 6:29pm

Dave,

Below is the story as posted on the scorpio list.

Since buying my cossie from an auction in June last I had an incurable problem with the fuelling system. Bob L***** did a scan which showed a faulty Lambda sensor (drivers side-pre cat). As the car was using more fuel and running rich I decided to take it off the road in October with the intention of trying to sort out the fuelling problem in the summer ie now. I had periodically run the engine over the winter months and had notice extended timing chain rattle. Taking on board all the advice about parking (I have a steep driveway and therefore parked facing downwards) I have used the FOT method, as recommended, for turning over the engine to take up the slack in the timing chain.

I got a replacement lambda sensor which I fitted at the weekend and decided to do a scan with my OBD lead tonight. She started ok but the scan was still
showing faults so I switched off (by now the engine was warmed up) checked the wiring and restarted. This time I heard exceedingly bad chain rattle so switched off did FOT for a few turns but still had bad rattle. I tried
restarting but the engine wouldn't fire.

I suspect that the timing chain has finally jumped the sprockets and am afraid to try turning the engine over again for fear of doing further damage-if not already seriously done. Similarly, I don't want to call out RAC for fear of them further wrecking the engine by trying to start it.

That's the dtory so far-the above was placed on the list last week and I haven't really had a lot of replies.

Any advice/help you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Highlander on Jun 1^st, 2006, 7:26pm

Just as Dave says , have a look at the chains first

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on Jun 2^nd, 2006, 9:29am

Aye, you need to get the inlet manifolds off. Start with the one on the drivers side as that one comes off easily. Of course either chain could be broken, but you are best off starting there.

We have done it so let me knwo if you want a "step by step guide".

Actually I will PM you what we did just so you have it.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 5^th, 2006, 12:22pm

Many thanks Dave.

If the weather is dry I might have a go when I get home from work this evening. I'll pm you if Im hve any problems.

Do I need any special tools?

Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on Jun 5^th, 2006, 1:41pm

No special tools required. Start with the o/s (drivers side) as that is very simple.

You will need a half decent socket set maybe with a "bendy bit" to make it easier, screwdriver, pair of plier to ease any hoses off, think thats it.

Just take your time, block off the air holes revealed when the inlet manifold is off in case anything should drop down (had a bit of a panic until my 8mm socket piece turned up :-X), and be careful with the gasket as you should reuse it at this point.

When the inlet manifolds are off I think the cam cover is just a handful of bolts (maybe 7).

Have a look at this, it is extremely useful but you don't need the whole thing for this job, just pluck the bits out from about step 5 so you have a reference :)

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engines/24v/24VCylHeads.pdf

Cheers

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 6^th, 2006, 11:43pm

Ta for the extra info.

Will keep you posted.

Geoff,

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 9^th, 2006, 10:57am

Looks like very bad news!

I got the drivers side rockerbox cover off last evening and found the following:

1. a piece of plastic lodged in the rocker box just behind the timing chain housing-it must have flown up there.
2. a further piece of plastic retreived from the housing.
3. A metal cylinder about 1½" long with a wide,milled slot at one end was jammed between the chain and the housing towardds the top left corner-retrieved with a magnet.
4. On further inspection inside the housing with a torch I could see the chain had come off the centre sprocket and loose but still attached pieces of the chain guide.

At this point I closed the bonnet and pondered!!

Any further help/suggestions in getting this car back on the road would be greatly appreciated.

Yours hopingly,

Geoff.
:'( :'(

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on Jun 9^th, 2006, 1:40pm

Oh dear :-/

Sounds to me like a chain tensioner, or idler cog (if the 24v has one) has broken.

As it happened without the engine running as such all may not be lost.

Give it a little while and more knowledgable chaps will be able to advise on what has broken and possible fixes.

Could the piece of plastic and the metal cylinder have been one of these?

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/p9020001.jpg
Well done for getting this far :)

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by martin_rowe on Jun 9^th, 2006, 3:31pm

if you are brave, the next step is the other cover off, with the right tackle, you can do a compresson test even with broken chains, but never known one not to damage valves, metal cylinder is part of the tensioner, its a huge job even for the experianced, but very rewarding when its done right, expect parts bill of 6-800 +vat.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 9^th, 2006, 6:58pm

To Dave,
the cylinder does like like the metal bit in your blown up picture of the tensioners but the plastic bits are straight not like the ones of the tensioner.
The engine was running when I heard all the noise but I quickly switched off.

To Martin, if the parts bill alone is 6-800 + vat, it doesn't sound like it makes economic sense to try and repair plus I don't have the tooling required for an engine out job or a place to do it. If it were just the tensioners and guide it wouldn't be too bad but if valves are broken as well that's a whole different ball game for me.
By the way the chains don't look snapped, there is still tension in the drivers side one that I have so far exposed.

Lets' hope like you say there may be someone who knows more about the problem and how to fix it.

Regards,

Geoff. :'(

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on Jun 9^th, 2006, 7:02pm

I reckon a compression test as Martin suggested is the way to go here, this will tell you whether the engine has suffered any damage.

24v Cosworth engines do come up for sale for around £250 though, might be worth considering as a possible "easy" option. You could also have someone give the replacement engine a good checking over before it even went in the car.

Cheers :)

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by howiedintheplace on Jun 10^th, 2006, 12:10am

Hmm well it will be alot of work to put right.

Sounds to me the drivers side chain guides have broken up letting the tensioner fall out & that centre cog is the oil pump it's come off.

I would go with the others here.

Check to see if the timing is set correctly, you will have to try & get the chain back on that cog as well. If timing is O.K then thats good. Now do a compression test.
Becareful you can bend valves by turning the engine over by hand.

Good Luck.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 11^th, 2006, 12:35am

How do I do a compression test and check timing is set right?
Is this an engine out job?
Has anyone on the forum/list done this?
Is it possible to do this witout first replacing tensioner and guides?

Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jun 26^th, 2006, 10:21am

Further to my last post to which i have not had any reply, I would ask again how to do a compression test as suggested by Dave et al. Also howiedintheplace suggested getting the chain back on the cog-will this be possible without removing the whole timing chain cover and the broken tensioner?

Looking at the main site's description of what to do, does anyone have Steve Collister's e-mail address so that I might liase directly with him as someone who's done the job without taking the engine out?

Awaiting your replies-hope there'll be lots.

Geoff.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by Dave on Jun 26^th, 2006, 11:01am

Geoff,

sorry I didn't reply about the compression test, I am not totally sure how it works but as I understand it you get a compression tester which screws into one of the spark plugs holes. This has a gauge on it which tells you what compression the engine has. You would have to turn it over and, given the situation, would be best done by hand and slowly.

Dave and Martin would know more I expect, including how to get the chain back on the lower cog. As it has not snapped and is loose this should be quite possible.

I am not on the "list" (Hotmail only :-[) but would think someone would know Steve's address from there.

Hope this helps a bit :)

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by martin_rowe on Jun 26^th, 2006, 1:02pm

to do compression test you need the right tester / adapter, as the plugs are a long way down inside the head, engine needsto be turned over with the starter, timing cant alter unless chain broken, chain cant jump unless theres no teeth on sprocket, if you know what you are doing you could do a cylinder loss test to check for bent valves, but there again you will have that if there is a chain / gear problem, set of valves ( one head) set chains, gaskets, guides ect will be approx £1100.00 plus a whole load of time, I recon best part of 20 hours to do right, head will need re face, & seats re cut for new valves, then theres the other side head to worry about.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by RebGershon on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 9:52pm

Dear Fellow Forum Members,

Further to my recent requests for help and advice under the title of "URGENT HELP REQUIRED-ULTIMA COSSIE ??ENGINE DEATH", I'd just like to take this opportunity of thanking all who contributed.

It became obvious that even though it might be possible to replace the chain tensioners & guides, ther might be valve damage as well so I thought about a replacement engine. One of the breakers on e-bay was offering an engine from an 'N' reg cossie with only 77k on the clock. The guy said it ran fine but that I wouldn't be able to listen to it starting from cold/running as they have to remove all fluids from the cars when they come into the yard-so I only had his word for it! I found a guy who would fit it for me and the total cost with engine would have been around £500.

Steve C thought it might be a worthwhile exercise but then as the car is due for MOT next week and might well fail on something else, I have reluctantly decided that perhaps now is the time to cut my losses and advertise the car for sale as a non-runner on e-bay and spend the money on something else-what I don't know. I'm a little reluctant to look for another cossie only to have similar problems again, even though I enjoyed driving the car for the relatively short time I had her running.

Many thanks again to you all.

Geoff Rose.

Title: Re: Timing Chain & Death of Engine?? Cossie
Post by howiedintheplace on Jul 3^rd, 2006, 10:31pm

It is expensive.

I think perhaps you have done the right thing if it looks bad.