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Title: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 4:58pm Hi, Just back from 300 mile round trip, car was nearly empty, so i stopped at a small "garage" to top up. Looked dodgy but i needed petrol. Was 98p a litre, so only put £10 in. After about 5 mins, the car starts to hunt about and a funny smell (best i can describe it is lighter fluid or marker pens). I immediately think, b****r, nuts petrol, stop at tescos and top it to the brim (another 50l), but it is still hunting and smelling. I am 100% i used the unleaded, passenger confirms, does this sound like diesel in the tank? ive never had a diesel so dont know what it smells like. What do i do? just hope it mixes out? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by solarpanel on Aug 28th, 2006, 5:24pm look at receipt if you got one should tell you what you bought |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 5:27pm didnt get a receipt !! the one time....im trying to find the garage on the internet at the moment so i can ring them, not easy.... but 100% sure it was a green pump |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by Highlander on Aug 28th, 2006, 6:04pm What garage was it? maybe someone on here is nearby |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 6:18pm had a friend drive past, its shut now, but is called Scottish Fuels?? on Gilmerton Road (Drum St), just off the bypass will ring them tomorrow to find out what is on their records.....when i rang tonight, there is no answer message giving their name :( i even remember him saying to me "a tenner of unleaded" when i paid, and my mate says they have a BP sign on the unleaded pump |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by nuttyscorp on Aug 28th, 2006, 6:47pm cant see it beind diesel, the nozzle shouldn't fit in you filler neck ??? Russ |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 6:53pm good point well made, makes me feel better i havent been a numpty.... so, what do you think it is? crap in the bottom of the tank feeding through because i ran it half way through the red then only put £10 in? or crap petrol? why is the exhaust fumes stinking now? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by solarpanel on Aug 28th, 2006, 6:58pm was it self serve |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 7:04pm yep think i will run it round the bypass and see if it clears (or breaks !!), i need it for work tomorrow |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by Spannerdemon on Aug 28th, 2006, 7:14pm Wonder if the tank got so low that it's sucked up all the yuk from the deepest parts. I know the filter will pick up solids, but ................... Hope you clear it. :) |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by cossie_al on Aug 28th, 2006, 7:37pm That would be my guess, all the muck from the bottom of the tank. have a look at the filter and you should be able to tell from that. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 7:41pm ok, just been down, lots of white smoke out the exhaust, oil is not creamy, no oil coming out of the filler cap, afraid to drive it having seen the amount of smoke out the back (it smells very petrolly/something else), still hunting and shaking quite badly. on the plus side it does start on the key..... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by bootiful-scorpios on Aug 28th, 2006, 8:23pm hi , what are your water and coolant like ? any need toping up? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 8:45pm i did have to put 1/2l of water in it before the trip (warning light came on), first time since i got the leak fixed in feb, still at max now though..... drove the 300 miles since then without missing a beat and a few hard accelerates since then. the £10 of petrol may be unrelated, just seems a coincidence that it was running great before then, and within 2 mins everything goes wrong..... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by Octavian_P on Aug 28th, 2006, 8:45pm You could empty the tank.....and refill it with new fresh petrol....it may be worth more to fix a broken engine than a fill-up with gas.... This remembers me when i bought a "new type water-based gas"...... >:( |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by taliban on Aug 28th, 2006, 9:07pm there have been a lot of complaints about bp, their top range diesel stuff uses the same colour pump (though different shade) as the unleaded pump. if there's lots of smoke, that sounds like oil, and diesel is oil...... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 28th, 2006, 9:10pm yep, i guess the question is a) is there water/stale petrol in my car and would that produce these symptoms, and do i just "drive it off" b) something more serious is going on in the engine bay |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by RichardMS on Aug 28th, 2006, 9:40pm When you say smoke does it stay in the air or evaporate like steam, If it stays like smoke then it does sound like you have put diesel in instead of petrol. If it is steam like then you may have head/gassket problems. If it started to happen not long after fueling then I would say it is the first option, If this is the case you might have damaged the cat also. Diesel does look and smell a bit like petrol so you wouldn't notice after filling up anyway. Hope you get it sorted soonand keep us posted. [edit] Wynns do an additive that mixes any water, if any, in you're tank and burns it with the fuel[/edit] |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by Octavian_P on Aug 28th, 2006, 10:10pm There is also izopropilic alcohol which mixes with water and burns...it has a 99.6 grade....it is used for taking out water in fuel systems....but i strongly recomand to get the stuff out of the tank....and clean it...... :-/ |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:23am update : i started it up this morning, plumes of white smoke hanging in the air as i drove away, within a mile the temperature was up, and the smoke disappeared. the car is still very juddery on power, and seems to lose power for a few seconds, then pick up again, then lose power again, each one 3-5 seconds. it did make it the 15 miles round the bypass !! i rang the garage, to the response, "oh aye, sounds lilke you put diesel in, no you shouldnt be able to, have you got the receipt, our system doesnt show individual transactions, ach well". so, im thinking diesel in the tank now (or maybe lots of water?), not sure if my heart can take 300 miles to run this tank, will get a price to drain (into a clear container so i can see if anything "separates") and a new fuel filter, on top of the £60 in petrol/diesel lost. any other ideas? my only other option is to try some additives...... if i do get it drained, and there is a mix in there, who do i report the garage to? dont think i can prove it, but if others are complaining as well...... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by jonnycab on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:57am As was earlier mentioned, the diesel nozzle should not fit the filler tube, it is too wide. If the garage is a small dodgy garage then there could be a chance that the underground petrol tanks haven't been changed for a while (should be changed every ten years), & they could be leaking. It's a long shot, but I wonder whether you could find out if anyone else has had problems after filling up at this garage. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 29th, 2006, 10:24am yep, my thoughts too, i will get the drain done tomorrow (£40 + cost of fuel filter), and see what shows up. if there is any diesel/water in there and the car returns to normal i will be putting in a complaint. if not, i have bigger issues...... i am thinking swapped tanks not emptied |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by taliban on Aug 29th, 2006, 10:48am it does sound like diesel, but going on the percentage in there i wouldnt worry too much, its unlikely to do any permanent damage, just makes injectors etc a bit clogged. real damage happens when you put unleaded in a diesel engine, as i did once ::) in an old pug 205, however, the ratio was low and i filled up with diesel, the car ran superb, the petrol cleaned the injectors etc ;D. if you can live with it for a while you could always just keep topping up to bring the ratio down, which is a tad lazy, or drain the tank yourself, refil and sling a bottle of fuel system cleaner through it.... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 29th, 2006, 11:06am i got cut up by a 3-series on the bypass this morning, put my foot down, no blistering acceleration :-[ its getting drained ;) the guys at this garage are good, and reckon if they let it settle they can happily put the top half of the tank back in, saving me £30 at least..... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by Geoff_W on Aug 29th, 2006, 11:53am Even after draining, I recommend a bottle of fuel system cleaner. The Wynns one seems fine but most of the additives people have a product. Good Luck |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 29th, 2006, 11:57am wilco, thanks for all the advice everyone, will keep you posted. at least my heart isnt in my mouth any more, might get some sleep tonight !! |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by taliban on Aug 29th, 2006, 4:43pm it'll be fine tintin, trust me, im a bus driver ;D seriously though, once the tank is drained etc use an additive, preferably a fuel system cleaner rather than just an injector cleaner. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by taliban on Aug 29th, 2006, 4:45pm you you got cut up by what......a BWM (Bloody Waste of Money) :'( |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by bootiful-scorpios on Aug 29th, 2006, 5:13pm would it be possible to get your friend that live nr that petrol station to go back and fill one of them plastic petrol cans at the same pump what you used , so then he would see if there is any thing weird in the petrol , or even bits floating in it ? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 30th, 2006, 2:29pm ok, bad news, garage has just got back to me, they have drained and refilled, but still smoking. They are saying it is oil burning through, so probably valve burnt out or cylinder seal. symptoms again : car running fine, stopped for petrol, started again, car shakes and judders. get home, leave it for 5 hours, start it and white smoke out the back. when it warms up and at speed, juddering almost stops and no smoke. when stopped at lights judders bad and lots of white smoke. maybe unrelated but recently had the fuel pressure regulator valve replaced by a garage, and since then it has had a strange idle (it revs to 1700 then drops to 900 after 9 secs). as i say, may be unrelated. at the moment, my heart is in my feet as i have to consider scrapping the car (after 6 months and total spend including repairs £2k) anyone got any ideas? any offers of help? scorpioman, any chance of an emergency visit with your diagnostic skills? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by bootiful-scorpios on Aug 30th, 2006, 3:25pm sorry to read your last post :'( white smoke coming out seem a little strange , im not 100 % but when its oill gettimg in to a engine all ive ever seen is a blue/grayish smoke that comes out at all times but comes out more on driving, im hoping it is something less nasty for you , |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 30th, 2006, 3:31pm ps i should re-iterate that it was driving brilliantly before this happened, and still happily cruises at 60mph, although with some power loss when accelerating. it does not appear to be getting worse, in fact seemed slightly better this morning on the way to the garage. pps it nows seems to take 15 mins to get warm rather than the usual 3 mins, and is eating fuel (40 miles done ate 1/4 tank) i have done head gaskets on older cars (minis, triumphs), but nothing on this scale. limited tools and no drive-way. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 30th, 2006, 3:33pm thanks for the support bootiful, thats what i thought, more welly = more smoke another thought would be a vacuum pipe off, i looked back at old posts and noticed someone had white smoke when a vacuum gave in. would also explain the odd idle and high fuel consumption of course i could be clutching at straws..... :-/ |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by bootiful-scorpios on Aug 30th, 2006, 3:50pm do you car start first time on the key? and easy ? what is the smell coming out in the white smoke now? has temp gone down or normal? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 30th, 2006, 5:33pm hi, more update, just back from the garage (PS Metro Autocentre, Granton Road, Edinburgh, great guys and talk it all through, RECOMMEND) definately a cylinder down (in my desperation i didnt ask which one :-[ ) when they pulled the lead engine didnt change, they pulled the plug and it was oily, swapped plugs, still no change when lead pulled. im amazed the car cruises happily at 60-80 with only 5 cylinders !! car starts on the key, temperature is normal but much slower getting there, garage are sure it is oily smoke out the back, i say white and oily/diesely they say definately blueish and oily/diesely. they reckon chuck them £100 to strip right down to confirm it is either head gasket or valve, take it from there. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by DazRSK on Aug 30th, 2006, 6:07pm Just reading through this thread - oil does burn with white smoke when extreme heat is applied. I had a turbo petrol once where the turbo expired and white smoke was chucked out the back. The difference obviously between this and steam is that it lingers. When you say smoke, does it linger ? I maybe wrong, but head gasket would normally point to water (steam) being dispelled out the exhaust and you say you aren't losing any coolant. As I say - maybe wrong - but not heard of oil being burned in copious quantities through a dodgy head gasket. The other thing is that petrol engines don't like diesel. You can run old diesel lumps on petrol, as long as there is a small amount of diesel to mix. I have hired some old diesel dumper trucks/forklifts before where the tank smelt petrolly/dieselly where the public have put the wrong stuff in before me. In fact, as long as the liquid can be compressed, older diesels will run on most oil based substances - however, as long as there is a element of diesel to mix. Obviously, it wrecks the modern day common rail engines as they require the diesel as a lubricant as well. The other way around though is fatal. Diesel does not spark and what can possibly happen is that a diesel mix is being thrown in through the inlet valve but doesn't burn. More diesel mix gets thrown in on the next cycle and you end up wrecking valves. If you suck in water through the air filter after going through a ford or deep water, the best way of dealing with it is to remove the plugs and let the water spit out through the plug holes. This would be similar with diesel, as it ain't going to go anywhere. If you don't believe me, try lighting neat liquid diesel with a naked flame - it won't work and the match extinguishes. What has possible happened is that the diesel may have been put into the petrol tanks at the garage, you filled up with diesel, it ran for 2 minutes on the element of petrol left but slowly the diesel filtered through, strengthening the diesel mixture. Then there is too much fluid in the piston chambers, so something has to give way. Well that's my diagnosis, anyway. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 30th, 2006, 6:24pm hi thanks for the advice, the smoke does linger, but the garage drained the tank and said there wasnt any diesel in it.......then again it may have been driven off as i probably got through the 10l i put in (heavier, sinks to bottom? does it mix with petrol? remember i only put 10l in then topped up with 50l of good petrol). anyway cant prove it either way, just need to diagnose what is wrong now, although i now suspect the dodgy garage fill-up may be a red herring..... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by julie_quaife on Aug 30th, 2006, 6:24pm i have heard in the past of main tanks at petrol stations being filled with diesel instead of petrol - don't know about the technicalities of it all though, but if its an old petrol station there may be a risk of this happening? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by derekne on Aug 30th, 2006, 6:59pm on 08/30/06 at 17:33:23, tintin wrote:
This has been interesting. I have been cruising for houndreds of miles with number 3 cylinder off lately. Aparently a diagnostics team said its a valve. It will cost aprx £250-£300 to fix. I had only 50% of power. During a 200 mile journy. The car seemed to learn to cope with this. Someone one on here said it starts to fire in two`s. Anyways I now have 95% of power with the same problem. It will cruise at almost any speed I require. I have even pulled a fully laden trailor. Up a very steep hill for 3 miles. At 70mph with no problems at all. The 2.3 can cope with a hell of a lot. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by howiedintheplace on Aug 31st, 2006, 12:05am The garage sound like they are on to it. They done a compression test? If one plug is oily it can't be a general problem like diesel in the tank it is something to do with that cylinder. If cylinders 2 or 5 it could be gasket or rings. If any of the other's maybe rings or piston. Could be just a valve seal as well which can be replaced with out removing the heads. The bad idle could be a air leak, check the pipe work, including the stupid T connector. Dave |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 31st, 2006, 8:58am cheers dave, have emailed you, will get them to start digging this morning, |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by DazRSK on Aug 31st, 2006, 11:11am on 08/30/06 at 18:24:12, tintin wrote:
Sorry - I wandered off the point I was trying to make. You said that the tank smelt funny - like the petrol was "off" or like an oil based spirit. It could be that when you placed the small quantity of what you thought was petrol into the tank, it was in fact something else. This has probably caused the problem - don't forget that petrol has a unique smell and us car owners deal with it so often, everybody knows what it smells like. I am just sort of feeding off one of your previous comments and I don't think this is as much of a red herring - it's a very unique point to raise. The other thing that garages/RAC/AA willl say it that as soon as have realised you have placed any wrong substance in the tank, do not start the car, otherwise you'll damage the engine. Unfortunately for you, this was not that obvious - you picked up the unleaded nossle and something else came out. Not your fault - it could happen to anyone. If these are the facts, there is nothing you can possibly do to correct what has happened - apart from the current location of your car (the garage). Filling a tank full of good petrol is no good - the engine is damaged. You said you put 50l back in - there would be little trace of the previous substance in the tank, I would guess, therefore, difficult for the garage to come to a dodgy substance conclusion. So you ran the car on the little petrol left, then ran on the dodgy substance. The white smoke initially - like on route back from the garage - was the substance trying to (very unsuccessfully) burn in the piston chambers. The white smke now is the affect of the damage - probably valves or stem guides. Anyway this could all turn out to be irrelevant as your car is now is in the garage. Hope everthing falls out OK and let us know what the issue was with it. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Aug 31st, 2006, 1:45pm yep, i will wait to see what the damage is before pointing any fingers, but its too much of a coincidence (and no prior symptoms) not to be something to do with what was put in it. the smell (and juddering) wasnt when i was filling up, it was when i stopped at the first set of lights 2 mins after leaving the garage. I was right by a "known" petrol station, so i thought i would top up with good stuff. white smoke only appeared after it had cooled then restarted, 10 miles later. i thought damage occured when petrol was in a diesel, but not too bad if diesel in a petrol, but maybe my recollection is not good. garage is starting work on it on tuesday, so i will just be biting my fingernails 'til then..... im thinking of just getting the head off and re-gasketed anyway whilst they are in there..... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by taliban on Aug 31st, 2006, 2:04pm right then, one cylinder isnt firing and the plug is fouled, and a new plug gets fouled. first do a compression test, if that cylinder is way down then its not diesel in the fuel, it could be worn rings etc. if the compression test is ok, then to me it still sounds like diesel in the fuel. diesel is oil and as such wont burn like petrol, it wont damage the engine it'll just clog it and foul plugs, similar to a 2 stroke engine that runs on a mixture of oil and petrol, typically 50:1 ratio, too much 2 stroke oil and the plugs get fouled. the easiest way to cure it is to take out the plugs, pour redex or even neat petrol down the plug holes, leave it for 15 mins, keep turning over the engine to spit everything out, old rags over the plug holes can help to see what comes out, also it will spit it some distance, so be aware what is in front of the car! once your sure everything is cleared put new plugs in. spray cold start through air intake (cold start is a kind of high burning temp neat alcohol) and start the engine. if everything works you could also put a tin of silkolene FST (fuel system treatment) in the tank, this basically increases the octane rating and really does make an engine run much more smoothly, its designed for motorbikes but obviously works on any petrol engine. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by 97stateblue on Aug 31st, 2006, 5:43pm I cant help with the main problem but I think we need to challenge this assumption that using the bottom of the tank picks up dirt that wouldn't otherwise be found. Car petrol systems HAVE To Use the bottom of the tank first, always. The pipe which collects fuel doesn't dig deeper just because you're nearly empty, it always sucks from the bottom. I have not opened up the Scorpio tank, but when we opened up and old Cavalier tank (you're supposed to before disposal but for goodness sake and be careful, it is a BOMB), we found an incredibly clever piece of plastic engineering which contrives to suck everything down to the last five drops of fuel. Hard to describe but it uses the speed of the returning fuel to create a swirl effect which both dispels air and sucks up the remaining fuel (and presumably, dirt). Richard |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Sep 1st, 2006, 6:37pm ok, garage just called, they have been playing with it and seem sure that the problem is now a spark plug blown. im holding my breath still now..... i replaced the plugs 2 months ago, and its had the FPR replaced since then, so im hoping i can get the plug swapped and all will be well.... would this cause the symptoms, or am i just getting happy to be destroyed again? would dodgy fuel cause a plug to blow? or was it just coincidence? and who was the man in the black hat...... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by Geoff_W on Sep 1st, 2006, 8:34pm Well, I had a similar problem on the 16valve, plug tip burned away or otherwise disintegrated, ran like a tractor, still not exactly sure what caused it, but discovered cracks in leads and had to replace an ignition pack later that week, after a period whilst engine management was in learning mode everything settled down for another seventy thousand miles. Erm......are you talking about Eric? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by howiedintheplace on Sep 1st, 2006, 9:03pm A cracked/broken plug would cause a bad idle, lack of power, overheating & general bad running. But you would only get a puff of smoke every now & then not the smoke screen you describe. Also you said they had swapped plugs & there was no change ??? |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Sep 1st, 2006, 9:17pm yep, thats why i am holding my breath, might just be a symptom not a cause.....i had bad idle and poor running, but not overheating, lots of smoke on idle (none when driving) and eating fuel they may have switched plugs and said "yep its still running like a bag of nails" not checked if the other cylinder now not running. to be fair, i went in with "dodgy fuel" so their investigations were probably fairly cursory first time round. on the other hand, they are good guys and seem sure its just the plug, maybe diesel in, white smoke, plug burns out? there was a lot less smoke after 2 gallons burnt off will let you know tomorrow when i pick up another plug and see if it runs ok, another sleepless night ;D cheers for the input Dave, really value your input, i know this garage is good and honest (how many garages would tell you its a plug when you are expecting a head-off job?), but they dont have "expert" knowledge like you, and want to make sure they do this right..... |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by howiedintheplace on Sep 1st, 2006, 9:43pm Err also if a plug gets covered in oil for a while it can burn out or crack. So keeping my fingers crossed for you. The garage will have a better idea mate than me as they can actually see what is happening. It's so hard to guess things based on what people tell you sometimes. Dave. |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by tintin on Sep 2nd, 2006, 10:25am ;D ;D ;D back from the garage, they put a s/h plug in No 1 cylinder, running fine again, £50 all in. so looks like it was just a dodgy plug ??? thanks to everyone who supported me through this scary time ! the plug they put in isnt platinum tipped, and ford are out, so its going back to them for an oil change, new plug and some additives end of this week. cant recommend these guys enough, METRO AUTOCENTRE, Edinburgh. still running a touch lumpy, but thats to be expected, not smoking any more ! and drives smooth again, no judders. still have my idle problem, will post a separate "Problem" for that :D |
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Title: Re: dodgy petrol? HELP !! Post by bootiful-scorpios on Sep 2nd, 2006, 1:01pm :D a bit of light at the end of the tunnel , lets hope its ok for a while now ;) |
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