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Title: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 11th, 2006, 11:23am ok, car went into the garage today to get the engine sorted. asked them to sort out the vacuum pipes (thanks TT) and replace the n/s cat sensor, and see if it helps (car is currently running closed loop) the mechanic was pretty negative, he is convinced the big ends are away. the rattle only happens when cold and at idle, as soon as the engine is revved at cold, rattle disappears, and also no rattle when warmed up. just started doing this recently and overnight...car also sometimes loses power. im struggling to separate cause and symptoms !! would a poor running engine cause a big end rattle? i said if it was big end, it wouldnt be repaired, so all we can do is fix the rest.... or is this false economy? |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 11th, 2006, 11:34am It'll be interesting to see what a scan shows after the sensor is replaced. Could it possibly be the cat breaking up causing the problems? The sensor is going on the same side where the noise is isnt it? P.S. got some rubber for those 12 spokes yet? ;) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 11th, 2006, 11:45am rubber is on hold until car starts behaving {} yep, started with overfueling on that side, changed FPR, not overfuelling now but sensor has always been a bit iffy, my thought is either car running rough or blocked cat (or combo of both) is causing noise in the block, but garage is [/b][/i]convinced[b][i] its big ends..... would big end noise go away when engine warms? has anyone ever had a big end go on a 100k engine? seems a bit early.... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 11th, 2006, 11:48am I think you posted about this before. Anyway if a mechanic thinks it's bigends I would go with that as it's a noise that you learn. But usally big ends are barly audible when cold getting louder as the engine heats up, also they are noticable when you rev the engine & on over-run. If you hold the engine around 2000 rpm they should be real loud. They will not effect the engine performance. Big ends are fairly cheap to replace. Your problem sounds more like timming chains (I think yours is a 24V). Noise when cold & at tickover fits the profile can also cause slight power loses but that's probably to do with the vacuum pipes & cat sensor as you call it. Basically when cold oil is thicker & tickover produces low oil pressure which means your tensioner will not be pushing against the chain guide with the force it should. This then lets the chain move about probably taking chunks out of your plastic guides. The above can also be caused by worn big ends as the wear would allow the oil pressure to drop on tick over. A real can of worms this :-[ I would try a engine flush & the right oil & filter & see if it makes a difference. If not then something has worn out. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 11th, 2006, 1:22pm yep, sorry to repeat, just need reassuring maybe :D hmm, interested about the oil, it did start shortly after i asked them to do an oil change.... wonder if they fitted the wrong filter, or used rubbish oil.... rattle is at 900-1500rpm, as soon as it goes over that, it disappears, even when cold how much is not much for big ends? |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by mazzy_j on Nov 11th, 2006, 4:47pm As Highlander says, i'd check your cats first as my 24v does to the word what your describing and i know the o/s cat is broken on mine :-X if not that then next on the list would be the chains... Matt |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by taliban on Nov 11th, 2006, 8:05pm i know nothing about cats, so im with howie. if the garage did the oil change check the level, chains rattle more when cold and oil not up to pressure. some years ago an exhaust place was doing an offer, 10 quid for oil and filter change, i thought ideal, cheaper than i can do it and convenient. afterwards the engine was rattly, i checked the oil level, they'd filled it to the minimum. if you change the oil, check the old oil for swarf, if the big ends are going there is often a tell tale sign with lots of swarf in the oil. i doubt the parts for doing the big ends are expensive, but its time consuming... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 12th, 2006, 10:37am The noise the CATS make when they break-up is very different to the big end noise, so I would assume the mechanic would know which is which. The timing chain noise is again a bit different also but is closer to a big end kind of noise so could be mistaken for that. Here is a big end noise, does it sound like this???? http://media.putfile.com/Sick-12V The clicking is the injectors, the banging is the bigend, espically clear when it revs up at the end. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 12th, 2006, 11:41am wow, no its not that bad !!! but the low end clunking is similar, except not there all the time, rattles for about 10 clunks (3 secs) on the tail end of the revs dropping usually, then goes away again. occasional clunking on idle. i will try to record a sound file of it when i get it back.... thanks for the ideas guys |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Nov 12th, 2006, 12:33pm i sam that's not what i heard at the meeting! hopefully you'll get good news from the garage. :) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 12th, 2006, 12:59pm yep, car was warm at the meet, so wasnt doing it, only happens when the car has been sat a day or so, but its loud when it does.... fingers and toes crossed !! |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 20th, 2006, 11:39am grrr, garage have come back saying the n/s bank is way down on pressure, about 80-100, whereas the o/s bank is 140. so their conclusion is broken engine, just scrap it mate.....they havent done the sensor or hoses, as they reckon thats a waste any ideas? |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 20th, 2006, 12:43pm Cylinder pressures? |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 20th, 2006, 2:50pm i presume so.....thats all i got from them, i think it is written off in their heads and they just want it off their plot now.... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Dave2302 on Nov 20th, 2006, 4:03pm on 11/20/06 at 11:39:32, tintin wrote:
Try getting an opinion from someone knowledgeable it sounds to me like your garage don't know / cant be bothered. Regards |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 20th, 2006, 4:17pm Try getting an opinion from someone knowledgeable ;D and therein lies the rub..... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 20th, 2006, 5:01pm Defintely sounds like they're trying to get out of doing the job and they don't know whats wrong. A garage would take on any job as long as they were getting paid for it, whether its worth the owner doing it or not. Tell them you want it fixing ;) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 20th, 2006, 5:07pm In fact if it is poor cylinder pressure like they say then its either a head gasket a cracked head or piston rings,valves? not really above your average garage I shouldn't think ;D |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Dave2302 on Nov 20th, 2006, 5:18pm Tin Tin, What area are you? Is there no one on here who could come and take a listen ? I would happily do so if your Kent area. ;D Regards |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 20th, 2006, 5:34pm A few of us had a listen at the Borders meet, admittedly it was warmed up but we didnt hear much, not enough to scrap it anyway! It seems to run fine when its warm. I'd like to see all the pipes and sensor sorted first then have a listen to it.. sounds like the garage is a bit out their depth |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Dave2302 on Nov 20th, 2006, 5:46pm [] It was my view that the garage were not familiar with the 24V Scorp. These cars seem to scare your average garage, probably cos they dont / haven't seen enough of them. I know of Ford main dealers who dont like working on them, as they have seen very few. If a few of you listened to it at the meet, and couldn't really hear anything hot, then I too agree that its unlikely to be a scrap job. As has been said, big ends and oil pressure related problems get worse with hot engine oil. Timing chain rattles are worse cold. Also Cat / exhaust type rattles are often more prevalent cold. I dont reckon it's too major, just needs someone to experience the fault for him. Good luck tintin and dont give up on it yet ! Regards |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 20th, 2006, 7:02pm not giving up ;D just at a loss at to what to try next i dont think dodgy vacuum pipes would lower pressure/cause rattle, so im thinking s/h cat and sensors just to see if that cures it (highlander?) would it run if i just take the cat off, to see if its blocked? i dont think the garage are being bad, they are just being honest to the best of their abilities, but i suspect this is not an easy trace, so they are giving up.... i think its time to start getting my hands dirty (and wet, and cold, and bleeding....) rather than ask a garage im picking it up tomorrow, will try to get a bit of video/sound on my phone.... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Spannerdemon on Nov 20th, 2006, 7:33pm Quote:
Or even started the engine and then realised that they had fitted the new filter and sump plug, but hadn't refilled with the fresh oil......... :o They wouldn't be the first, but of course they wouldn't have told YOU about it!! :o |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by deconick on Nov 20th, 2006, 9:17pm hi yah my 24v cossi has a rattle on drivers side when i start up more so now that its colder out side i belive its the timming chain hydraulic tensioners drain over night this rattle lasts for a few senconds yep i said a rattle not a knocking like a big end would sound plus its worse since i put fully synthetic oil in, i hope yours it a rattle |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 20th, 2006, 9:20pm I hope its not, thats not good either ;D |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 21st, 2006, 1:00am Tintin They are saying that cylinders 1 - 3 are all low on pressure? That's very odd, the only thing I can think of that would cause that is if the chain has jumped & the pistons have touched the exhaust valves. That would bend them ever so slightly so they don't seal proper. Take the cam cover off & look at how worn the sprockets are & also set the engine to TDC & see if the cam timing lines up. If the chain had broke you would know trust me :o |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 21st, 2006, 11:48am hmm, not sure of numbers, but n/s bank is down, particularly the middle one, according to them. i said, oh, i thought it was the back one, he said hmm noise is coming from both ??? picked the car up this morning, it is definately down on power now, but still starts and drives ok, strangely no rattle on start up from cold ??? will try it again tonight and see if it rattles (have to put some water in, seems it is losing a bit of water now as well !!) i will say they are a decent garage, just out of their depth i think, he only charged me 1hr (he had the car for a week), and has not ripped me off before..... Howie, how many beer tokens if i nurse it down to you? i just want it sorted or scrapped now, £500 budget, MOT is due in Jan !!! my parents are in Bridgnorth, my dad works in Hales Owen....near you? cheeky but worth an ask.... cheers |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 21st, 2006, 7:59pm ok, some rubbish sound clips (too windy up here....) from cold, not started in a week : http://www.zippyvideos.com/9005373436313866/mov00094/ once it had done 6 miles, up to temperature, you can hear the idle sticking then falling, i was just blipping it : http://www.zippyvideos.com/4567803146313886/mov00095/ actually sounds worse on the camera phone, no rattle like it was doing before, and seems fairly smooth, drove up to 40 mph with a few hesitations, but not embarassingly slow or anything i will try to get a better clip when the winds die down !! |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Spannerdemon on Nov 21st, 2006, 8:41pm Neither clip is giving any sound. :-[ |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 21st, 2006, 9:15pm WEIRD !! when i uploaded it, the link worked with sound, now it doesnt.... tried photobucket, no sound.... anyone know how to host .3gp files with sound? |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 22nd, 2006, 1:02am Tintin your about 300 miles from me, I would come round & have a look if you was closer but a bit to far :o Do what I said, take pictures & I should be able to see whats happened. & sort out a sound clip. One close to where the noise is & another about 6 ft from the engine as mics pick-up the noise different to your ears. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Nov 22nd, 2006, 6:39am hi sam give these guys a phone.... A.V.A. Easter Walkinshaw Farm, Walkinshaw Rd, Renfrew, Renfrewshire PA4 9LP Tel: 0141 848 5257 think the main guy is called alan. hopefully they should give you some good answers. if you need to go through to them, let me know. hth |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 28th, 2006, 4:12pm sorry, been fixing my dads metro the last week (at least thats simple and mechanical !!). booked in with AVA for Friday, they seemed a bit keener to do some more testing on it, going to rolling road it (£60) and see if compression is down, and whether its leaking at the valves or down the bores, apparently.... i suspect even if its a head job, thats probably beyond my means (i read somewhere a gasket set is hundreds of pounds alone !!) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 28th, 2006, 6:11pm http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-SCORPIO-V6-COSWORTH-HEAD-GASKET-SET_W0QQitemZ4545259167QQihZ002QQcategoryZ21654QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem £75 for both heads but seen them a lot cheaper, will keep looking |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 28th, 2006, 6:52pm phew, ok, so if its top end, it is do-able, dont know where i got £700 from :-[ if its the bores, im in trouble..... cheers H |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Nov 28th, 2006, 9:04pm hi sam if you want me to come down/meet you there on friday, let me know. hth |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 28th, 2006, 11:24pm aye, that would be good, better bring the hankies ;D im booked in for 1pm, so i will get there for 12 to let it cool down a bit before testing thats assuming it makes it :o darn radiator is losing water now.....only about 500ml a month, but its all adding up..... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 29th, 2006, 12:31am The radiator definitely got a leak you can see? |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Nov 29th, 2006, 6:53am stuart, you thinking head(s) gasket? :-/ sam, do you know where you're going? or do you want to meet at the usual place at 11:45. it's about 15-20mins from there. let me know. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 29th, 2006, 10:03am aye usual place would be perfect cheers, 11:45, anyone else want to come along ;D there does appear to be a slight drip from the front right of the car (we spotted it at the meet) and it is damp, so assume its just the rad, but not really got under it too much..... this bank is the one that has had all the trouble and work on (thermostat hose, FPR, blown spark plug), so i guess c/h gasket could be the issue (actually im kinda hoping it is just that at the moment, not bottom end) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Nov 29th, 2006, 12:20pm Was wondering about the gasket, especially as the last place said it was low on compression. I've had them leak from the radiator, heater matrix, inlet elbow at the front between the V and they've all just been slow drips |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Nov 29th, 2006, 6:38pm hi sam no problem. remember to take along every piece of info you have from the other garage. also for the rolling road, check water, oil, tyres & gearbox fluid. make sure everything is 100% as your car will hit 6k rpm lots of times! :o (maybe) ;D btw, i'll take my obd-2 lead with me. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Nov 30th, 2006, 9:54pm never rains but it pours and then the scottish sideways rain starts !! alarm has been going off all day, just got a call from pc plod making sure my car was ok (thumbs up), i had noticed it myself, assumed it was low battery (car has stood for 12 days) or the fact the petrol flap was open !?!?. Started fine, ran it for 5 miles, parked up, set alarm. went off 10 mins later, so its being left unlocked (anyone want to take it? ;D) will heavy buffeting winds set the alarm off? its pretty nasty up here at the moment.... but not raining.... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Nov 30th, 2006, 10:06pm hi sam wind shouldn't set the alarm off. have you looked/checked the bonnet switch. or pull the wire off the alarm horn behind the battery. hth |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Dave on Dec 1st, 2006, 10:08am All the best for today :) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 1st, 2006, 4:54pm thanks dave, mystery solved, colonel mustard is in the clear.... AVA did a compression test, no issues found (they said it was as good as new !!) put it on the rolling road, 4000rpm, black puff of smoke, 5000rpm big black puff of smoke and my baby burped : http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/CAT.jpg engine freed up and is running ok again. he said power was still down, and it didnt cure the sticky idle, but it has power again ;D who has the biggest boots to go visit the "garage" that told me my engine was dead? even to the point of quoting compressions at me !! so now, i need to read through all the cat postings and find a couple of cheap cats, some sensors and a garage that i can trust to fit them all......i think i will just replace both cats and all 4 sensors.....should still be cheaper than the c/h gasket job ;D |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Dec 1st, 2006, 5:14pm Did that come out the exhaust?? Glad its not terminal ;D Back to the normal Scorpio problems now then ;) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 1st, 2006, 5:25pm yep, fired out the back, hit an axle stand ;D its about an inch and a half long inching ever closer to treating it to those alloys.... |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Dave on Dec 1st, 2006, 7:59pm FANTASTIC :D But hope no-one was standing behind when that lump came out :o :o :o Really pleased that the outcome has been rather better than feared 8) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 1st, 2006, 10:57pm Well after all that it's just the CATs gone :D Good result but what a joke that first garage was. Led us all on a wild goose chase ;D |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Dec 2nd, 2006, 12:05am on 11/11/06 at 11:34:52, Highlander wrote:
Knew it all along ;) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 3rd, 2006, 6:30pm cats on their way £150 for the pair anyone know which sensors i order? http://www.cats-direct-shop.co.uk/lambda-sensors.php thanks for all the help, |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Dec 3rd, 2006, 8:08pm hi sam pm'd you. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 4th, 2006, 6:54pm ok, ordered 2 cats £150, 2 sensors (they arent that cheap !!) £75, local garage to fit "about £100", so £325 all in, fingers crossed..... there does appear to be cat in the back box, do you think i need to replace the system behind the cats quickly, or will it blow out (or can you "shake out" the bits of cat)? thanks, |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Dec 4th, 2006, 8:29pm hi sam if you're lucky you might be able to shake it all out. the shape/design of the system doesn't lend well for it, though. :( hth |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Dec 4th, 2006, 8:32pm If you can get them to take the exhaust off when fitting the cats any bits will hopefully fall out unless jammed. Or just get a straight through pipe fitted ;) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 4th, 2006, 9:54pm hmmm, was looking at that, £340 stainless steel 2.5", but i think the next £200 is on the rubber..... cheers |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Geoff_W on Dec 4th, 2006, 11:18pm Sam, Good to see that things are starting to work out. |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 4th, 2006, 11:27pm cheers Geoff, although i suspect most of my problems now have been created by garages that were supposed to be fixing it..... gearbox done, charged extra because "exhaust was a pig to get off", cat been hammered? FPR done, now idle is odd, vacuum hoses back a over t? i think all the diagnosis on this site has been correct, and all garage advice completely wrong, if only i had a garage and more time to do this stuff myself ;D |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by Highlander on Dec 5th, 2006, 12:27am on 12/04/06 at 23:27:16, tintin wrote:
Makes you wonder sometimes doesn't it ;) |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by scorpio_man on Dec 5th, 2006, 3:20pm hi sam this is another company (http://www.rmsstainlessexhausts.com/exhausts.htm) who do s/steel exhausts. hth |
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Title: Re: engine rattle Post by tintin on Dec 11th, 2006, 7:57pm argggg ok, so getting the car up and going again tonight, ready for its new cats tomorrow (not been run for 9 days), get outside and it starts ok (slight fight, but it went). water coolant light on. no probs, just top it up, 2 litres goes in, then another 2 litres, then another 1 litre, light is still on !! so looks like all my water has gone awol, no drip now though (although it didnt get warm), can i just keep topping it up, or will it just have an airlock. should i drive it? its getting one more litre (of antifreeze)..... ps it has been losing a little bit lately, but not this much, it was parked downhill if that makes any difference..... |
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