Ford Scorpio Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Ford Scorpio Forum
        (https://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl)
      

        General >> Problems >> MOT Failure today :(
        
(Message started by: DJWerkz on Nov 22^nd, 2006, 9:02pm)

Title: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 22^nd, 2006, 9:02pm

Took the car in for it's annual test today and it started looking pretty good, perished front off-side brake hose, seemed to be all they could find,...except for emissions!

Car was run for ages then taken for a run came back and they still could not get the emissions to settle. CO was no where near the required 0.200, lowest it reached was 500+. HC and lambda readings were all in the green but were risng and falling big time.

In fact the car was running worse than it ever has, lots of peaks and dwells on tick-over.

Result of it now is that I have had to book it in for a full diagnostic analysis tomorrow.

Last year they did have similar problems getting it through but in the end it dropped in but we did find a bad lambda sensor in the rear bank.

I am hoping this is not going to work out too expensive, a brake hose was looking quite attractive :-/

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Dave on Nov 22^nd, 2006, 10:48pm

Blimey, with a CO figure that high surely the cause won't be too difficult to track down ???

Good luck.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 23^rd, 2006, 1:27am

Craig the CO can't be 500+ the thing wouldn't run, typo I think ;D

You mean 5%+.

I guess air leak :P

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 23^rd, 2006, 5:52pm

Would you believe it, the place I took the car to today had to turn me away, their new equipment can not read the Scorpio! They said that it can read about 95% of cars so mine must be one of the 5%.

They sent me to another performance car specialist who said they only do BMW's and Merc's, but they recommended another local test centre. Have it booked it for next Tuesday morning but have been looking at other places to see if I can get it done any sooner.

Went to my local Ford dealer today, that was a joke, they said they quote on how long they spend and they are not sure how long it would take as they don't think the new test equipment they have would read it either, and the old equipment has not been used for 2 years and no-one there is actually qualified to use it.

Going back to the readings, they are as I typed them; HC and lambda in tolerance but very erractic and CO was at 0.550+,..in fact I would say on average it was up at 0.900 to 1.100.

I have been thinking for a while now that the CAT's might need replacing, so they might be contributing to the high CO figure.

Car still does not idle smoothly and has a flat spot on initial exceleration.

Spoke to Bill Field (STN) today and he said he would get back to me with things to look out for.

So that's it for now, more as soon as I find out.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Nov 23^rd, 2006, 9:21pm

sorry to read that dj lets hope its not so bad as it seems , was bill ok?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 23^rd, 2006, 11:32pm

Hi Bootiful,

Bill was fine, super busy as usual. He is off to a car show this weekend in Exeter so that ruled out me going down to take the car to him.

By chance I have a friend who wants to guy a GMC Sierra pickup down in Devon and we were going to try and kill two birds with one stone,...well at least he still gets to go down to possibly buy the truck ;)

More on the Scorpio later...

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 24^th, 2006, 12:38am

CO was at 0.550+,.. (CO was no where near the required 0.200, lowest it reached was 500+.) That's better :P

Still sounds like unmetred air.

A oil service & plug check could drop it a bit.
Some of the cat clean stuff too works wonders.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 24^th, 2006, 1:49am

I've been using only Shell V-Power fuel since it's release and before that only used Shell Optimax.

...just thought I would throw that in the mix ;)

CAT cleaner, is that really any good? Oil is changed every 3000 miles using a high grade synthetic complete with the Ford supplied oil filter. Oil change is not due for another 1500 miles at least!

Will check spark plugs though.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 24^th, 2006, 10:33am

Well one of my M.O.Ter mates reckons it's brill, worth a try at least.
It's a quick fix thou will only drop the figure for a week or two probably.

Plugs & injectors both have big effects on emissions.
You can check & regap the plugs.

You are really looking after the Cossie with them oil changes that's great.

Check for air leaks as well.

Get it scanned too maybe a lazy exhaust sensor.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 24^th, 2006, 8:10pm

Got a scan done today, only one error code which read 'system lean'. Admitedly the guy advertises in Yellow Pages as a computer diagnostic specialist but he only has what appears to be a small handheld device which is loaded predominantly with US Ford cars.

The Scorpio was not listed in the model range but he had the means to enter the relevant part of the VRM number.

However, I am not convinced it was maybe thorough enough as 'system lean' seems to be a faily basic fault description.

I am waiting for some new plenum O-rings to come in the mail and plan to install those together with complete new vacuum pipes throughout. Will check all plugs and do a service too.

Hey Howie, what brand of CAT cleaner is the one to go for and where sells it?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by howiedintheplace on Nov 25^th, 2006, 12:22am

No fault codes as such then????

I think the stuff is called Cat Clean not sure.

Also use a high octane fuel like optimax or the BP stuff. (A tank full & use about quarter before the test)

Another important thing is to drive it hard on the way for test to get the CAT hot.
A cold CAT don't do anything.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 25^th, 2006, 2:58pm

I only use Shell V-Power fuel anyway, but will be sure to drive nice and hard before the re-test.

Will also search for the CAT clean stuff too, but while we are on the subject of CAT's, if my CAT's are on the way out would this give me similar sort of problems?

I am going to call Bill Monday see if he can slot me in on Tuesday for a complete system check, that way it still gives me time to book back in for a re-test and get the 'free' re-test I was promised ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Pam and John on Nov 25^th, 2006, 11:35pm

Try here for Cataclean

http://www.fordprobestore.co.uk/store/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=cataclean&osCsid=3db1fca54ff646b23a114e5466fa1b1b&x=11&y=5

also found on e-bay (maybe cheaper) and also seen in local autostores at same price. Highly recommended

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 27^th, 2006, 10:46pm

Thanks for all your messages, ended up cancelling a scheduled diagnostic test for tomorrow morning as I spent some time working on the car myself today and found a couple of things.

For a start, the air filter was filthy, this is totally unlike me to let that slip, can't believe I missed it. There is a breather hose that runs into the air intake box, just inside where the hose entry is is a little slot, I think it is supposed to have a small filter in there but mine was completely blocked with dirt.

I also found that the EGR valve was not screwed on and the pipe that runs from the lower part of the EGR to the intake system was only held on by one bolt instead of two, and the one bolt was only just screwed in.

I only checked a couple of the spark plugs but they were both in super condition and gaps perfect.

I dropped some CATClean in the tank today so I will take her out for a run in the morning and see how she blows ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Octavian_P on Nov 27^th, 2006, 10:51pm

That little slot in the airbox should have a small filter made out of sponge or something like that. It has the role of collecting oil otherwise it will end up on the air filter....oil in an air filter means trouble, low power, high comsumption...high emissions :-/

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Simmo on Nov 28^th, 2006, 8:19am

The 'dirt' you mention was probably the remains of the sponge filter as they do disintegrate int a crumbly black mess if not changed.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 28^th, 2006, 11:06pm

Popped into my local Ford dealer today, the emissions gauze listed for the air-box is not longer serviced so he reached into his bag of spares and gave me one to 'try',...hehehe

It was twice the size of what I required so cut it in half and ended up with a spare ;)

Took the car out today and I notice a difference already, extremely smooth tick-over at idle. Tomorrow going to have a full oil and filter change even though I've only done about 2000 miles it was last changed.

MOT re-test is booked for Thursday at 12:30 (high-noon at the MOT Corale,...hehehe), so wish me luck ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Dave on Nov 29^th, 2006, 3:44pm

Best of luck! :)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 30^th, 2006, 2:41pm

FAIL,...FAIL,...FAIL,... :-[

Car was running real smooth this morning even the MOT inspector noticed the difference but unfortunately the CO readings would simply not drop in value for a pass.

HC and lambda were real steady this time but the CO reading was up and down like a 'fiddlers armpit'.

Here's the test data:

Fast idle test:
CO 1.754 Fail
HC 110 Pass
Lambda 0.970 Pass

2nd Fast idel test:
CO 1.133 Fail
HC 66 Pass
Lambda 0.980 Pass

Natural idle test:
CO 1.291 Fail

We (MOT guys and myself) both think it's now down to bad CAT(s) so I am trying to see if STN, Bill Field can take the car and check it over and see what's up, 'cause at present I'm scratching my head ???

One other thing I have noticed, which I am not sure is anything at all is that when you are at idle then rev the car for a few seconds then release the gas pedal, the revs at first drop down to about 1000 to 1100 rpm then after approx. 8 seconds will drop again down to normal natuiral idle. Any thoughts?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Nov 30^th, 2006, 3:55pm

your fast idle co 1.754 is so high :o i think the max for that should be about 0.30 ....... max

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 30^th, 2006, 4:05pm

That's right, max CO for fast idle should be 0.300 and for natural idle for this engine should be 0.500.

Got to be CAT's right?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Nov 30^th, 2006, 4:11pm

i think its cats but dont know for sure i think scorpio-man, will be able to help you now with the high readings you have. any rattles from the cats at all ?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 30^th, 2006, 4:32pm

No rattles as such but I am not happy that the exhaust system is leak free, it's been off twice this year once to d the gearbox front seal, can't remember what for the second time but seeing as it's the original unit I feel that it's never gone back nice and tight without any leaks.

The worse area seems to be round by the flexible down pipes and where the front section joins the CAT's.

Sometimes it almost sounds like there is a leaking exhaust manifold but it never gets any worse and starts sounding like an old tractor put it that way.

Time for an exhuast sepcialist to look at it I think.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by tintin on Nov 30^th, 2006, 6:42pm

Hi,

RE idle "sticking" then dropping down after 8 secs, this is what mine is doing (although after a good run it sticks at 1400rpm). See my earlier posts. This started happening after work on the engine, we think it is down to the vacuum hoses not being reconnected correctly. I would suspect a leaky hose somewhere, which may also cause the emissions fail .

Im rolling roading mine tomorrow (it has bigger issues, i think), will let you know if they find anything then.....

that being said, we think one of my cats may be away as well !!

Hth

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 30^th, 2006, 7:28pm

I replaced the vacuum hose and two t-pieces between the 'spiders', will have to take a look at the rest myself over the next day or so.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 30^th, 2006, 7:55pm

hi dj

i'm starting to think towards a fueling issue, which could well be an air leak.

i know people with cat(s) removed and still pass the MOT easily. that's 'cause their fueling is spot on.
if you cat(s) isn't damaged already, they soon will be if the fueling is all over the place.

can you manage to get to a meeting to get a scan done?
that would help us no end, i think. you would be able to see 'live' data, like the lambda sensors, LTFT etc.

hth

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 30^th, 2006, 9:36pm

Great idea Scorpioman, where's the next nearest meeting to North Buckinghamshire, or at least a meet where someone has the scanning gear? I am prepared to travel, as I was planning on taking the car down to Devon next week and leaving it with STN.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by scorpio_man on Nov 30^th, 2006, 9:59pm

hi there

copied from g&s forum.....

Which bit of the test did it fail? I can't make out if it was the fast idle CO or HC?

If it's CO that implies it's running rich, which implies either a failure somewhere in the metering circuits i.e. lambda sensors, air flow.

If it's high HC then you've got unburnt fuel or oil, so either really rich or perhaps a missfire?

hth

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Nov 30^th, 2006, 10:38pm

HC and Lambda readings are fine (see my previous message above that shows the readings), it's simply the high CO readings, although please bear in mind that while the fast idle test was running the CO reading did not stay static at a high reading. It was up and down all the time and it did frequently drop down to just above the allowed range (lowest reading I saw was about 0.350, and 0.300 was the allowed max limit).

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by howiedintheplace on Dec 1^st, 2006, 12:55am

You need to get a scan to move forward now.

Just cause the CO is high don't mean it's the CATS.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Dec 1^st, 2006, 11:03am

Yes DaveyBoy, just waiting to see if anyone responds to my earlier message of being able to do a scan otherwise it's going down to Powercraft next week and left there until it's sorted!

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Dec 2^nd, 2006, 4:30pm

dj any luck yet with finding a scan to be done ?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Dec 3^rd, 2006, 10:54am

No, seems that there's no-one who wants to scan it :-/

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by scorpio_man on Dec 3^rd, 2006, 8:37pm

hi dj

you could try http://www.ecotekplc.com/power_boost.htm

might clean everything out. :-/

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Dec 3^rd, 2006, 10:24pm

Already tried CATAClean at £14.99 a pop so not wasting anymore money on additives like that, which I have to say I am still highly skeptical of ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by dh_dove on Dec 5^th, 2006, 6:27pm

DJ Werkz
Re fast idle/air leak
I recently had this problem on the XJ-S 4.0, idle would go up to 3000rpm if you let it!!(scary)
Fault was idle speed "stepper motor" seized. This bit of kit maintains constant idle speed and is basically an electronic tap that opens and closes in and out in the inlet manifold, controlled by the ECU, mine had seized solid in the fully open position. I would guess that it is a common fitment on all modern injection engines......tho' am not so familiar with the Ford engine to be sure.
If it is fitted this would seem to fit all your symptoms.........on the jag it's a bolt on unit, two screws and an electrical wire, cost about £100 new.
Hope this might help you
DH Dove

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Kjetil S on Dec 5^th, 2006, 7:08pm

Ford equivalent would be the IACV (Idle Air Control Valve)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Dec 6^th, 2006, 11:28am

Just a quick update; car is being dropped off at STN's place this weekend for him to check over and give me the full synopsis.

Will obviously report back as soon as I am any more clearer on what the problems are ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by lurchy666 on Dec 12^th, 2006, 10:28am

if this is the v6 12 valve engine had exactly the same problem with my granada mk3 turned out to be the ecu (looked like some 1 had had a bonfire on the circuit board)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Dec 14^th, 2006, 9:59pm

dj did you manage to get scorp to stan?

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Dec 14^th, 2006, 10:58pm

Still trying to tie down STN (savethenight) to get my car in.
MOT has now expired so can't use it.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by lurchy666 on Dec 30^th, 2006, 12:46pm

done a bit of research for you

running rich could be lamarda sensors or the coolant temp sensor (the 1 with 2 cables usually next to the temp sensr for the guage ) or the air charge sensor which on the v6 12 valve lump is on the side of the plenum chamber or any of the wiring to them (mine had lost a cable on the cts as well as the ecu being broken)

i dont think its cats cause i've seen a 2ltr granada pass the .2 co reading thing with totally hollow cats (i know they were hollow cause i smashed them out ;))

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by lurchy666 on Dec 30^th, 2006, 12:49pm

also i've borrowed this off another site might be worth checking

Ford, all models 1993 - 2004 onwards

Emission Failures -

High CO & low lamna reading. common causes of rich running faults are the lamna sensor or the ECU (engine control unit) both of these parts are relatively simple to check, to check the sensor strip back the insulation on the signal wire from the lamna sensor, this wire is usually black. Then hold the bare wire between your finger and thumb then touch your other hand on to the battery positive the internal resistance of your body will give 1volt at your finger tips which is what the sensor would give out when the engine runs rich, if the emissions come down then you have a faulty lamna sensor or wiring but if the emissions remain the same then the ECU is a possible fault. For more information on ECU testing click on ECU

High CO with normal lamna reading. If the oxygen level is below 1% then a high CO with a normal lamna reading can only be one thing - the catalytic converter, when ever you get this reading the catalyst should be condemed. But always make sure you check the oxygen level first, if its high (over 1% at speed) then you’ve got a leaking exhaust or engine runing problems.

Ford, all models 1986 - onwards

Hessitation, power loss, missfire. This type of problem can be one of the most time consuming faults to find because the problem often is only slight and the fault only shows up when the car is being driven under load. One common cause of this is a fouled or sticking injector.

that site is this minus the www
peathingyandpurvey.co.uk/Diagnostic_Proceedures/Ford_common_ECU_failures/ford_common_ecu_failures.html

lol i especially like this bit in the high co/low lamna reading bit i know as a sparky every body's body has got a diffrent resistance so how they can say that i dont know

to check the sensor strip back the insulation on the signal wire from the lamna sensor, this wire is usually black. Then hold the bare wire between your finger and thumb then touch your other hand on to the battery positive the internal resistance of your body will give 1volt at your finger tips which is what the sensor would give out when the engine runs rich, if the emissions come down then you have a faulty lamna sensor or wiring

lambara colours 4 cable

the 2 whites are for the heater and they dont matter about polarity the black is your signal to the ecu and grey is an earth

__________________
just found this as well minus the www
lambdapower.co.uk/Diagnosis/Diagnostic_index.asp

it tells you how to test the lambda sensors and loads of usefull stuff

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Dec 30^th, 2006, 10:13pm

Thanks Lurchy!

Car is now in the good hands of Powercraft Engineering, so we will see what they come up with and I will let you know ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Feb 21^st, 2007, 12:24pm

OK, it's been a while now but the car has now passed it's MOT thanks to Bill Field and te guys down at Powercraft Engineering.

Seems like there were several things going on with the car which were generally contributing to it's general poor running and high emissions, but it took Powercraft to know how to fix them. Here's a list of what they found and put right:

Faulty MAF - mine was squeeky clean, but faulty
Vacuum canister faulty
Bad Vacuum
Faulty wiring to Lambda's
Cracked drivers side exhaust manifold

That's all I can remember off the top of my head after this morning's telephone call with Bill, hopefully getting the car back this Friday.

So I am glad to say that another Scorpio lives on to fight another day ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by mr._floppy on Feb 21^st, 2007, 12:29pm

Well done DJ.

Can we guess how much it will all cost ?

I'll say £300.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Dave on Feb 21^st, 2007, 12:45pm

Good news, good on you for persevering :)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 21^st, 2007, 12:54pm

hi there

at last, 1 comes back from the dead!!!! ;D

happy motoring.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by barrie on Feb 21^st, 2007, 1:15pm

Great news Craig. I saw your car at Powercraft last week, as I went to collect mine last weekend

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Feb 21^st, 2007, 2:11pm

HEHE,...Bill said you had stopped by Barrie, got to see the old green bus then ;)

Not sure on final cost yet but Bill looks after me well ;D

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by lurchy666 on Feb 21^st, 2007, 6:43pm

good to hear its back on the road

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by barrie on Feb 22^nd, 2007, 8:29am

Yeah, just cant keep away from Powercraft Craig,LOL. Bill and Chris have done loads to my car now, it looks stuning. But i will put it in a different thread as I don't want to hijack this post

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Feb 22^nd, 2007, 9:42am

Not much to hijack Barrie lol

Let us know what you've had done ;)

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by barrie on Feb 22^nd, 2007, 4:26pm

Will do Craig

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Feb 23^rd, 2007, 11:57pm

Picked up the car from Bill today,...well got the train to Bristol and met Chris there. What a super ride home I had. Car ran real smooth all the way.

Great job Powercraft!

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Tim_Lusername on Feb 25^th, 2007, 8:31pm

Hi Ovtavian
Could you elaborate on the filter thingie?
I cleaned out my MAS recently and cleaned out oily watery gunk out of the airbox plenum box, I didn't see any secondary filter. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick entirly here :-)
TIA

Tim

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 26^th, 2007, 9:14am

hi there

i take it you're talking about the small 'foam' filter at the top left of the airfilter box. this is to catch any bypass oil/gas from the top of the engine. you can make one out of a kitchen cleaner pad. it's just a green nylon scrubbing pad for dishes. cut it to size. job done.

if it's really messy in the box, this could show signs of a worn engine, but you'd really need to know when it was last cleaned out. could be years ago!

hth

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by DJWerkz on Feb 26^th, 2007, 9:25am

The little foam pad in the slot in the air box where the oil breather pipe connects, if not properly maintained will be so deteriorated over time that it appears to be a conjealed lump of oily deposit.

Title: Re: MOT Failure today :(
Post by Tim_Lusername on Feb 26^th, 2007, 1:03pm

Thanks for the replies.
I got myself a lemon recently :-(
My old Granada died so got a replacement too quickly - seemed to run ok when I tested it - handed over the dosh and the next day started up a dog! missfired like crazy and wouldn't change gear - oh the joy
Anyway cleaned out the MAS and IACV and it's like having a new car - I'm assuming this things had no TLC in a while.
Only thing that really bothers me now is the auto fluid - it's not brown but it ain't quite red either :-( one porblem with checking it under sodium street lights on the day.
Will be changing that and the oil in the next week or two and hopefully will be ok for a while - if not you'll be seeing a lot more of me!
This is a great forum BTW
Back on the subject of the air filter, there is an air supply pipe/scoop leading into the plenum box which isn't actually connected to the plenum, it just sits loosly infront of the plenum opening, is this correct or should there be a joining piece between the two?
Cheers
Tim