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        General >> Problems >> Rear wheel negative camber
        
(Message started by: jonnycab on Jan 13^th, 2007, 11:40pm)

Title: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by jonnycab on Jan 13^th, 2007, 11:40pm

Rear wheel bearings are okay & shocks are fine, but both rear wheels camber out at the bottom ???

The top arms of the rear suspension look off centre in the bushes (pulling more to the outside)...so I reckon a couple of new top bushes might help :-/

I've had a quick look on the site but haven't found the procedure for replacing these bushes.

Any help please ?

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Highlander on Jan 14^th, 2007, 12:33am

I'd drop the whole back subframe, its only a few big bolts. ;D
then you have good access to the suspension arm bushes.
You might be able to get them in by just dropping the arms but i've not tried that

I actually think there are polybush kits for the Granada/Scorpio that fit in two halfs and tighten together with the bolt but i've never really looked into that yet

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by jonnycab on Jan 14^th, 2007, 1:30am

Cheers Stuart,
Not really into dropping the whole subframe......but if that's the only way to do it then I reckon it's gonna be going in the garage to be done ;)

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by jonnycab on Jan 15^th, 2007, 12:31am

An update....
I got underneath the back today armed with a 100 watt inspection lamp & the top arm bushes look fine.. ???....so do the front facing bushes & the wide bottom ones.

Maybe it was just lack of light & shadows that made them look as though they were pulling outwards .......I admit, I did use a torch with failing batteries the first time I looked at them.

So if it ain't the bushes....then what is it that makes the rear wheels camber out at the bottom ?

The shocks seem okay....one bounce then settles.......

There is no leakage from the shocks (I assume they aren't gas).

The only other thing I can think of is the springs....(weak & possibly bending outwards slightly).....but they look fine (put a 12" straight edge ruler against them & they were straight).

The wheels turn fine & no grinding can be heard from the bearings......I read somewhere that if you hold the spring & turn the wheel, & you feel a vibration through the spring, then the bearings are worn........no vibration felt :)

Also wheels are solid when trying to move them side to side & top to bottom.....no movement......

I'm stumped ???.....but I'm thinking shocks.

The car is lower at the back than it should be....which usually causes negative camber.....& as far as I know, this is usually caused by worn shocks.

Both rear wheels camber at pretty much the same angle & the shocks have probably never been replaced.

They aren't too expensive to buy, so I may replace them & see what happens ;)

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Highlander on Jan 15^th, 2007, 8:56am

Jack it up at the rear slowly while watching underneath, I still think its more likely to be the bushes, did it settle to a normal height when you lowered the jack the last time then drop once you moved off?

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by jonnycab on Jan 15^th, 2007, 9:05am

on 01/15/07 at 08:56:02, Highlander wrote:

Yes....but the only reason it was higher was because the rear wheels were cambering inwards, until I moved off. :)

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by martin_rowe on Jan 15^th, 2007, 9:14am

worn /weak springs or lowered rear suspension cause more negitive camber to rear wheels (lean in more at top), on quick glance looks like it should be about 1/4 degree neg on the rear, its not adjustable, though some have 'played' abuot with wedges behind the beareing housing.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 15^th, 2007, 10:18am

Ordinary shock absorbers don't make any difference to the suspension height, they only provide damping.

If the back end looks low then my first suspect would be the springs or the bushes. If the bushes look OK, then I would be inclined to compare the length of the springs with the weight on, with another identical car. It might also be worth looking carefully for broken springs to, they break at their extreme ends and it is not always obvious that they have broken - other than the sag.

My monies on the springs being tired, especially in an hard working vehicle like a taxi.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by lurchy666 on Jan 15^th, 2007, 5:26pm

could be rear diff mounting the rubber in it could have perrished its a common thing on granadas

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 15^th, 2007, 8:32pm

johnnycab, are you losing tyre tread on the inside of ya back tyres or tyre?

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 15^th, 2007, 11:34pm

on 01/15/07 at 17:26:54, lurchy666 wrote:

could be rear diff mounting the rubber in it could have perrished its a common thing on granadas

Which I don't think would have any effect on the lean angle of the rear wheels.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by mr._floppy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 12:48am

The rear bearings are notoriously crafty in their manifold and various manifestations of imminent decrepitude ( eh ! 8) ).

What I mean to say is that my money's on the rear bearings :-/

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by jonnycab on Jan 16^th, 2007, 1:03am

on 01/15/07 at 20:32:33, bootiful-scorpios wrote:

johnnycab, are you losing tyre tread on the inside of ya back tyres or tyre?

I put some new tyres on the rear a couple of months back & they don't seem to be waring more on the inside as yet (I have got 36 psi in them though).

The old tyres were completely bald on the inside though....so the answer to your question bootiful, is probably ....Yes :)

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Neil W on Jan 16^th, 2007, 5:31pm

My money would be on the rear springs, so getting a new pair might be worth while. I recently replaced the front springs on my 1998 car (115000 miles) and was surprised at the difference in height between old and new ones (about 3 inches). OK, this difference will compress under load, but should still lift the back end up a bit.

Hope this helps.

NeilW.
Cosworth saloon

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 16^th, 2007, 5:39pm

hi johnny, we have the same prob as you camber , i did think both of the back tyres were cutting up but ours is worst on the inside edge of passenger side, we are gonna opt for new springs to see how that make things look after , as car dose look as though it sit very low on the back.

your tyres you had changed was the wear the same on both?

is the car giving us a clue due to the fact that only one tyre tread is wearing out ??

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 16^th, 2007, 6:30pm

Front and rear of mine, you can easily get three larger fingers in horizontal, between the tyre and wing at the top. Not very scientific I know, but it gives a rough guide to how it should be with no load.

If the spring is in doubt, measure its length under normal load and compare that to another car that looks right.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:58pm

hi harry,i cant fit 3 fingers horizontal between the tyre and wing! now went out to try i was lucky to fit in 1 :o

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Highlander on Jan 16^th, 2007, 8:11pm

Yep threes about right depending on how big your fingers are ;D

Bootiful-scorpios your name isnt by any chance Hagrid? ;D

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 16^th, 2007, 8:21pm

what hagrid from harry potter ???

;D no lol he is huge !!!! im tiny lol
he would fit nothing under the gap well nothing i can think of any way ::)

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by jonnycab on Jan 17^th, 2007, 12:33am

bootiful....looking at your car in the pic, your rear wheels seem to be in the same position mine are......& yes, both tyres were worn on the inside :)

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by martin_rowe on Jan 17^th, 2007, 8:57am

compare ride hight by measuring from arch to centre of wheel.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 17^th, 2007, 1:15pm

Most interesting, I have the same symptoms, ie:

1. Only one finger twixt tyre and wing,
2. Inside shoulder wear on rear tyres, and
3. The tyres, when viewed from behind, obviously sit on their inside shoulders.

In the past the idea of replacing the springs would have horrified me but with help from you guys over the years and lots of practice I guess it's something I could attempt.

Would it make sense to replace some of the rubber bits and pieces at the same time with a view to reducing noise/vibration.

Hopefully someone will have a go first so we can benefit from the experience - I can't remember seeing a write-up on the site (please correct me if I'm wrong here)

Mike

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Simmo on Jan 17^th, 2007, 1:54pm

Mike, Not a write up but a comprehensive guide HERE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/suspensionman.htm)which may help....or scare you!! ;).

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 17^th, 2007, 2:52pm

lol - you're right, it did scare me!

I guess I'll do the bearings and cv joints first, if that makes things quieter I think I may settle for that.

It would be encouraging to hear from someone who's actually changed their springs who could hold our hands a bit - I think I'd be tempted then.

Mike

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by martin_rowe on Jan 17^th, 2007, 4:03pm

have never had to remove exhaust, evap, or disconnets drive shafts to do rear springs, just arb links, brake hoses, btm s/abs bolts & the axle plates at the sides, support vehicle on stands, lower axle, you can press lower arm down enough to get spring out.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 17^th, 2007, 5:41pm

Thanks Martin,

That makes sense.

What do you think about renewing the rubber cushion thingy that the top of the spring pushes up against. My car has done nearly 250k miles and I'm wondering if this maybe a bit worn and causing extra noise to be transmitted into the body of the car?

Mike

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 17^th, 2007, 9:31pm

on 01/17/07 at 00:33:39, jonnycab wrote:

bootiful....looking at your car in the pic, your rear wheels seem to be in the same position mine are......& yes, both tyres were worn on the inside :)

they do jonny []

found a couple of links up
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1111606880;start=
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1079610094;start=3#3

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by lurchy666 on Jan 18^th, 2007, 10:54am

diff mountin will do it cause if the rubber goes in it it lowers the whole back axle assembly

i know cause i had to change my diff on my granada and as i lowered the diff the wheels went in at the top

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Highlander on Jan 18^th, 2007, 1:25pm

Granada must be different Lurchy, you could unbolt the Scorpio diff from the body completely and leave it hanging on the prop and the driveshafts and there wouldnt be any difference in ride height

The trailing arms would only move if there was a spring problem or a bush problem

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 19^th, 2007, 11:35am

on 01/18/07 at 13:25:01, Highlander wrote:

Just to confirm - the last Granada was the same. Dropping the diff made no difference to the wheel height or angle, so wear on the rubber would logically also have no effect. There was a flexible prop feeding the diff, then two flexible shafts feeding onto the wheels from the diff.

Title: Re: Rear wheel negative camber
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 20^th, 2007, 10:31am

Interesting, I'm just looking at replacing my rear suspension cross-member insulator to reduce noise/bumps etc.

Looking at the geometric setup of the rear suspension, would I be right in thinking that if this insulator had perished and lost some of it's height/strength that this would cause the negative camber that's causing this inner shoulder tyre wear.

One reason for suspecting this is that my car, which has done nearly 250k miles, is suffering from:

1. Greatly increased noise/bumps at the back and

2. Inner shoulder tyre wear

both of which could be attributed to the partial failure of this insulator.

A good reason for giving it a try, methinks, is that they ought to be cheap and the procedure (detailed on the sight) seems remarkably simple - once one has the special Ford tool.

I'm just checking on prices and availability. If I do it, I'll let you know how I get on.

Mike