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        General >> Problems >> Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
        
(Message started by: Mike_Floutier on Jan 19^th, 2007, 10:36am)

Title: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 19^th, 2007, 10:36am

I've been changing bearings (wheel and prop shaft) and shock absorbers and I'm about to replace my cv joints/drive shafts BECAUSE I'm getting a lot of noise from the back end.

What occurred to me recently though was the fact that the noise is very general and includes what I think is an unnatural level of "road noise" (ie bumps and tyre noise etc).

With all the recent posts about rear road springs I started thinking about how the noise/vibration that finds it's way to the suspension arm (from many inputs) is insulated from the car body.

My present car has done nearly 250k miles and I'm sure many others out there are high mileage too by now and likely to be affected by a breakdown in the insulation.

What I want to know is:

1. Which of the rubber insulators is likely to be the primary culprit? (My feeling would be the one on the top of the the spring), and

2. Has anyone changed any of these insulators; how did you do it? did it make a difference?

I ask because, if the cv joint change doesn't do it for me, I can see that the next step is going to be removing this lower suspension arm and I'd like to be able to replace the spring and as much rubber as possible.

Any experiences/ideas would be very welcome.

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 19^th, 2007, 10:44am

Just looking at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/suspension/RSuspInsulator.pdf I see that there is a "rear suspension cross member insulator" which looks fairly easy to change but does require the use of a special Ford tool (15-014). Does anyone know where to get such things from?

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 19^th, 2007, 11:56am

Wear on CV joints is usually obvious, so rather that starting with those I would look at changing the spring insulation bushes to reduce plain road noise.

If your complaint is whine from the back end, then I would suspect the diff as the most likely culprit and/or the centre bearing of the prop shaft. Both can run for long mileages with lots of wear on them, whereas CV's with any faults deteriorate much more rapidly. I had a CV go from good, to extremly noisy in 500 miles.

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 20^th, 2007, 9:16am

Thanks Harry,

It's not a whine, more a rumble and it's coming from the sides as well as the middle. Also, I had one of the drive shafts off and it's grease had solidified. I've ordered a pair of drive shafts from a breakers (£30 a side) and provided they look ok I'll fit them and see what happens.

However, I'm still interested in your suggestion about replacing the rear suspension bushes to reduce the noises/bumps. I can see from the site how to do the cross-member insulator (though I'd be INTERESTED to know how to get hold of the special tool needed).

What I'm struggling with is how the insulator on top of the road spring is fitted; it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the "suspension manual" and I dont want to wait until I've got it all in bits to discover I need another special tool or something.

MAYBE someone who's changed the springs can help me with this.

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 20^th, 2007, 9:56am

I've not had my Scorp long, but I had three of its predecessors, the Granada. I should also add that I never had problems with the rear springs on any of them, however....

I would guess that the insulator is just held in place simply by the spring pressure, just like the spring itself. It just drops into a pocket in the chassis at the top.

I would also hazard a guess that the rubber insulator can be replaced by simply taking the weight off the wheels and using a pair of spring compressor clamps to compress the spring. The insulator should then drop out - whatever you do don't put your fingers in, use something like a screw driver to prod it out, just in case the clamp slips.

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 5:00pm

Well, the good news is that the spring top insulators can be had for around £12 each but the springs are obselete. I guess I could pick up the springs cheaply from a breakers'.

Harry, you mentioned that your springs had not given any problems but although mine still work (not sure how well) I can hardly get one finger between the tyres and the wheel arch (where some members report 3 fingers).

Anyway the REAL REASON for this post concerns the other main INSULATOR on the rear suspension, ie the cross-member insulator. This can also be obtained cheaply (£15) but it requires a special Ford tool to extract and fit (tool no. 15-014).

My problem is that I cannot find out how to get hold of this tool. QUESTION - has anyone replaced their cross-member insulators and do you know where I could get the tool and do you have any tips? (I've read the procedure in the manual btw)

Thanks

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 5:15pm

hi mike

not changed these bushes, but changed other ones.....

the easiest way would be to burn it out. do you have access to a torch? don't go too mad with it, you only want the rubber to mostly burn through. if it has a metal outer, use a hacksaw.

to put the new one in, use copperslip and a big socket/lump hammer.

a bit crude, but it works.

hth

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 6:27pm

haha, I guess the only way I can graduate to 4 spanners is by doing this sort of stuff - but a blow torch and a hammer? - it's just not really me. Hmmm, maybe I ought to give it a try. Oh thank goodness, I just remembered I don't own a blowtorch - I s'pose one of those plumbing things doesn't count does it?

Anyway, even if I do have a go, I really want to hear from someone who's actually done it, there must be someone out there!!

Thanks Scorpio_man, I promise to give it some thought, I guess for £12 I could order one and see what it looks like to get a better idea of how much force/flames would be needed.

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 6:46pm

hi mike

i've just helped my mechanic do lower bushes on a honda civic (before the op). heat was the only way they were coming off!

cleans all the rust out at the same time! you could use a mobile welder? :-/

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by harry.m1byt on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 6:47pm

on 01/22/07 at 18:27:20, Mike_Floutier wrote:

I just remembered I don't own a blowtorch - I s'pose one of those plumbing things doesn't count does it?

For freeing up seized (rusted on) metal parts I use an hot air gun and sometimes a small gas blowlamp. The same can be used for bushes, but it is slower and needs a bit more care due to the heat having time to spread beyond the bit you are trying to heat up. Working out doors in a draught even more heat input is usually needed. Whatever you use, have water handy to put out flames and perhaps an extingusher too.

When trying to solve a problem, start with the easy and/or cheap replacement options first, if you must work by trial and error methods.

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Jan 23^rd, 2007, 3:20pm

Thanks Guys,

Going to change the drive shafts first - when they eventually arrive.

Then I think it's the springs and their insulators, cos I think I can manage that. After that, if it's still noisy I'll try the fiery approach.

Last couple of questions:

1. When doing the springs, where should I support the back of the car - should I put wood blocks on axle stands under the sills?

2. Also re. the springs, will I need to compress them to get them out or will they come out without - I ask this as I don't have any spring compressors.

Thanks!

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 11^th, 2007, 7:28pm

Ok, getting some progress now.

If only I'd read the "rear hub" write-up on the site and taken it to heart I might have saved myself a lot of trouble. In http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/rhubs.htm , Dave Richards says, "I have since realised that one should NOT 'think', just investigate."

I had previously changed the osr bearing so I "thought" it couldn't be the problem. As a result, I've now changed:

1. 2 Tyres,
2. nsr bearing, disc and pads,
3. Prop shaft centre bearing
4. Rear shock absorbers, and
5. Both drive shafts and cv joints.

I've also bought new rear roads springs along with the roll-bar links and anti-squeak pads which await fitting.

Then I "investigated" the osr bearing (which, it turned out I had replaced but 140,000 miles ago - lol!). Sure enough, when I spun it, it sounded worn so yesterday I took it apart. Not only was the bearing worn (although not very badly) the wheel hub was so badly worn that the new bearing inner race not only slipped on easily but rattled around, it was so loose.

Understandably I wasn't able to get another hub on Saturday afternoon and I needed the car for work that evening so I put in the new bearing and took it out for a run.

It's interesting that the two seperate noises coming from the bearing; the traditional "bearing whine" and the "worn hub rumble" sound like they come from different places. The higher pitched whine sounds like it's coming from the bearing area but the rumble (which is felt as well as heard) could be coming from anywhere - that's why I suspected the front bearing (in another thread).

Oh well, I guess it's all good experience. I just have to decide whether to get a new hub from Ford (around £80) or get one from a breaker's.

Thanks for all your input guys - I just know I'd have thrown in the towel before now without it!!

Mike

Title: Re: Rear Springs, rubbers and noise reduction
Post by Mike_Floutier on Feb 14^th, 2007, 10:58am

Ok, I've ordered a hub from a breakers so this noise should be gone forever by the weekend.

Going back to the rear road springs, you may remember I ordered these along with the drop-links and rubber pads that sit on top of the springs. Well, I've had the springs for some time but the rubber pads only arrived today and this has highlighted a possible problem.

When trial fitting the rubber pads, it became obvious that whilst they would fit on one end ok, the other end was slightly too big - exact same difference on each spring.

Does anyone know if this is right, ie. the bottom of the spring is slightly larger than the top?

Thanks

Mike