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        General >> Problems >> Non-starter
        
(Message started by: tintin on Jan 21^st, 2007, 5:06pm)

Title: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 21^st, 2007, 5:06pm

The woes continue ;D

The car had a leaky rad, and the battery was discharging overnight, so i had left it over christmas. It had jump-started fine before christmas.

Went to start it today, noticed about 10 pints of water in the rear passenger footwell. Bailed it out, checked rad, full of water still. Went to jump it, and it turns over fine and tries to start but as soon as it catches it dies again. Interestingly as it turns over, the speedo goes up to about 30mph. The revs get up to 1200rpm as it tries to catch.

Took the battery out, it is a 55Ahr, 495CCA Exide Type ES4 (hmmm....). Has not been a problem since i got the car February 2006 (apart from a few alarm going off incidents lately). Never had any electric problems before. Also, i noticed lots of rust and rubbish under the battery, and the fuse box cover just lifted off. I suspect i have been living on borrowed time. Heres some pics....

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00133.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00132.jpg

I assume the water ingress is because the battery cover was not seated back properly after jump starting in Dec. The non-starting i am more stumped by. Well may just be a duff battery, although after disconnecting from the other car, it had 11.4V in it, so it is taking charge. More worrying would be a damp fusebox, would this cause the symptoms described? Also, why is the speedo jumping up? If the car thinks its travelling at speed in park, would it turn itself off?

The battery is now on charge, i will see if it gets to full charge, and if it then loses it. Any ideas if i can dry out the fuse box in situ, or is it a hoick out job? Whos got the best deal on batteries?

MOT is out, tax out end of Jan :o

Sorry for the rant, but wanted to be as specific as possible.

Cheers

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by solarpanel on Jan 21^st, 2007, 7:13pm

take the centre out of the auxfuse box you may find it full of water

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 22^nd, 2007, 10:50pm

ok, think we can rule out the battery, charged it, disconnected this morning 8am, its still reading 13.6V now. in the car, it drops below 10V overnight.

so i guess this is either fuse box or ecu is damp, as water ingresses through bulkhead. time to get the spanners out.... taken a day off work thursday. might get the radiator done too. the battery tray will have to wait to get welded ;D

any tips on drying out the auxiliary fuse box (SP i assume the auxiliary is the one by the battery). also, any on the ecu, i know its under the glove box, and therein is all my knowledge. :-[

Countdown has begun....

cheers

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 23^rd, 2007, 8:13am

Tintin, the removal of the fusebox is easy. It is held in by two bolts at the front end. I have some photos of one which I'll try and post. If you have an e-mail address perhaps you'd send it via a PM as that might be more successful!!. Essentially there are 5 or 6 layers each of which has 'tracks' on the underside in which the copper conducters sit. I would suggest that the easiest way is to remove it, lay it on its side, gently prise each layer apart without fully separating them and apply warmth in the guise of a hairdryer or leave it overnight in the airing cupboard. The fact that the battery drains overnight could of course mean that there is a component drawing current such as the glovebox light,boot lamp or even the cigarette lighter all of which have been causes in the past. You need to check for drain with everything off and then,if you get a reading, try pulling a few fuses to try and identify the circuit. HTH,Mike. UPDATE: Have just sent an e-mail to the address on your profile.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 23^rd, 2007, 9:43am

two bolts, sounds doable ;D thanks for the advice, i will check the email when i get home.

the drain came on when it started raining, and now i have a puddle in the footwell, so i am going with damp fusebox/ecu. once they are dry and hopefully the car is starting, and the radiator has been fixed, i will check for drains !!

thanks for the help,

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 23^rd, 2007, 12:09pm

When you remove the fusebox you will see that there is a large,conical sleeve which holds the loom as it passes through the bulkhead. That is a likely source of water and recent post suggest putting silicone or similar on the sleeve when re-fitting the box and of course ensuring that it is properly seated in the actual bulkhead.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 23^rd, 2007, 3:11pm

cool, will get some sealant on the way home..... although given the state of my battery tray, cavity filler may be more appropriate !!

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 23^rd, 2007, 6:43pm

battery now reads 12.8V still standing out of car ??? so can i assume its on its way out?

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 24^th, 2007, 6:56pm

Hiya,

Ok, i have taken the top off, removed the two bolts, unclipped the two side clips, middle section is now loose, but still attached at the back. where is the darned clip holding it back there, there is no room to see !!

simmo, got an email, but bill gates blocked the attachments, can you send zipped?

Many thanks,

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Highlander on Jan 24^th, 2007, 6:58pm

Isnt it just the wiring holding it in Sam? can you turn it over and unclip the connectors?

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 24^th, 2007, 7:03pm

the bottom section has a plastic tube disappearing into the bulkhead. i am trying to remove the middle section from the bottom section.

i didnt want to twist it in case wires snapped inside the tubing. something on the bulkhead face of the fusebox holding it to the bottom section, the front and sides are free.

good news is that no more water has appeared inside the car, and the battery tray is dry now (and i have big 2" drain holes all over it ;D)

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 24^th, 2007, 9:28pm

Tintin. I take it that you got both e-mails and it was the second one that you are having problems with. Will get help to try and sort in the morning. I think Highlander is correct in that you have to disconnect the box from the connectors which are underneath as there are a number of them and all the wires feed back through that large 'sleeve' in to the bulkhead. If you can free off the front ones I think you'll find that as the body of the box lifts the others are visible. I have a box in front of me and at the back there are two lugs which could locate under a bracket or similar. To remove you would have to pull the unit forward and slightly upwards at the same time. Try this.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 24^th, 2007, 10:59pm

Hi, only got one, .lnk file attached i think :-[

too cold and dark now, will have another go tomorrow morning

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 25^th, 2007, 3:28pm

ok, cant get the danged thing out, but my thoughts have shifted to the ecu now. the battery tray is bone dry..... but when i put my hand under the glove box, there is a tray with padding lining the bottom. this is absolutely soaking (i can press the padding and water pours out). so, round 2, i am taking the ecu out !!

i read spannerdemons notes for Geoff, "just unclip it", hmmmm i will go out with a torch.... anyone taken it out before?

cheers

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 25^th, 2007, 4:31pm

ha ha im so useless, i cant get that out either...is it rivetted in?

reconnected the battery, cranks it over fine, no start

checked the PATS, alarmed it flashes slowly, no alarm = no light. turn ignition on solid light for 2 secs, then flashes rapidly, but no code after, just flashes rapidly continually.

does this sound like a key being forgotten? i hadnt used it for 3 weeks....or just a damp ecu?

if so, have one black key >:( i have a spare red key and 2 spare black keys, can any of these be used. i presume this is a FMD to get a red key.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 25^th, 2007, 4:54pm

hi sam

sounds like something's up with the PATS. see http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm

hth

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 25^th, 2007, 5:00pm

yep, read that, but im not getting a code flashing.... i suspect the ecu is damp and kicking it out, but i've never owned a car with an ecu before :-[ so no idea what the next step is (i cant afford to get ford to pick it up, just blown my money on a donor car !! and tax is running out....

its at times like these that my old mini starts to make sense

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Dave on Jan 25^th, 2007, 7:30pm

Have you tried leaving the ignition on for a few minutes? It may start to flash a code then, leave it for maybe 2 minutes :-/ Are the PATS fuses ok? Think it uses numbers 16 and 17 in the central fusebox.

EDIT Yes the ecu is in a case that is joined by rivets, bit of a swine to get out if mine is anything to go by ::)

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 25^th, 2007, 7:50pm

Sam, don't fret mate ;)

Water on the looms is likely messing the ECU and PATS modules up, get to as much of the wiring/connectors as you can, dry them and spray the connectors with WD40, Trying to start as-is isn't going to do you any favours. Get it dry first, putting the battery back on with wet looms is just going to kill the battery and risk damaging the modules...

Good luck.

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 26^th, 2007, 3:11pm

cheers all, i will check the fuses.....i take it if the PATS is not being activated the engine will still turn but not start? i would have thought it would kill the whole starting procedure ???

Dave, can you remember which ones/how many to drill (rivets)? its all a bit cramped down there, i will probably end up drilling through anything and everything :o

Bruce, its absolutely soaking down there, i run a finger along the foam in the cradle and half a cup of water drips out, its saturated, so i am pretty sure it all needs to come out. i have access to another ecu, so i think i will drill this one out, and try the other one to see if it starts the car. if so, i need to dry it all out and find where the water is getting in to seal it.

will keep you all posted :D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 26^th, 2007, 3:31pm

Tintin, This (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pcmrepair.htm) might help you assess what yours is like once it is out. The most likely source of water is through the bulkhead 'sleeve' which carries the entire loom from the battery side (Auxillary) fuse box through to the control unit etc. If I recall there are a set of rivets,three or four, :) holding the unit on to the bulkhead. I'll try and find a link. Update:- Does THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/electrical/antitheft/centralcontrolmod.pdf) help?. It appears to show the rivets?. albeit they are holding in the PATS section I believe. :)

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Dave on Jan 26^th, 2007, 3:42pm

From memory there are 2 lots of 3! There was a chap who looked at the car for me when it wouldn't start. He got the ECU out but actually broke the casing as it turned out later ::)

Again, going from memory here: there are 4 bolts that hold the whole black cradle that contains the control module and the ECU, 2 towards the bulkhead and 2 more as you look up from the footwell - if you unscrew these then you can take the cradle away and work on getting the ECU out more easily :D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 26^th, 2007, 3:45pm

That would agree with the diagram referred to in the update.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Dave on Jan 26^th, 2007, 3:46pm

Was about to edit my reply to reflect that, but am too slow at typing today :)

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 26^th, 2007, 3:57pm

cool, many thanks, if its those 6 at the front on the pic, it should be reasonably straight forward. will probably pull the PATS too, see if its wet as well.....

how do you find stuff on the site, i click search/map, but can never find stuff (eg looking for glove box removal).

yep, when i took out the battery, the battery tray is almost non-existant, with a couple of 2" holes towards the front of the car (there appears to be a plastic grommet 1" by 3", which has partially fallen through due to lack of metal to hold on to). the fuse box appears dry underneath, and makes a good seal through the grommet. the back passenger footwell was to the brim with water. so i am suspecting me being stupid and not putting the battery cover back properly redirected water to the back of the battery tray, where it just poured straight through into the interior via one of these big rust holes.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 26^th, 2007, 4:07pm

Tintin, Go to the same page as your search/map BUT scroll down to the bottom and enter a word or letters eg: PATS and then click search. The glovebox one has defeated me I admit but you need to remove two clips,one on either side at the top front of the box to allow it to drop right down in to the footwell then it becomes clearer. ;) THIS picture (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/step20_1.jpg) shows the glove box removed and you can see the bracket which held the glove compartment protruding from the opening alongside the center consul.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 26^th, 2007, 4:13pm

ahhh i didnt see that search at the bottom, never got that far..... old dogs can learn new tricks !!

cheers

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Simmo on Jan 26^th, 2007, 4:25pm

Found it !!. http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/interior/trim/fasciatrimto95.pdf.I did a search for 'Interior Trim' and found it in amongst the fascia details.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 26^th, 2007, 4:31pm

ha ha, holmes you astound me.... although im not sure it was worth the wait ;D

"ping the clips....."

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 27^th, 2007, 12:11pm

WOW ! It worked :o

I took the glove box off, pulled out the PCM, all dry, drilled out 3 rivets (bottom 3 were already drilled) holding the ECU in place (easy to get to)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00109.jpg

undid the 10mm nut, pulled out the cables, there must have been a cup full of water come out of the ecu box, but cables were dry.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00112.jpg

Plugged the PCM back in, clipped it back up. Attached the new ECU, put the new key on my keyring and fired it, thinking hey whats the chances....

fired first time, perfect idle. Seems the battery drain has gone away again as well, as that was 2 days connected.

How happy? Pretty....

Just the rad and MOT to do now ;D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 27^th, 2007, 1:02pm

interestingly, the key with the new ecu locks my car, and the indicators flash and the horn sounds once.... but it doesnt unlock it. ???

my old key works everything normally

my dad is sending up the ecu from my scrapper, for which i have the red key and two black keys. can i transfer the metal part from my old black key into the red master key? i can then get two more black keys made up and programmed, and have a full set including remote....

ive got too many keys ;D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 27^th, 2007, 1:03pm

hi sam

did you try it without the 'new' key in the car?

glad it's working now, though! :)

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 27^th, 2007, 1:24pm

no, didnt want to tempt fate and have everything stop working again....

such a relief when it fired....

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Dave on Jan 27^th, 2007, 1:32pm

Well done :D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Highlander on Jan 27^th, 2007, 1:34pm

Hi Sam, good news :)

if you fit your ECU from your scrapper and swap the metal "key" part from your "old" keys (which fit your locks) into the ones from the scrapper then all the keys should work.

So you'll have the scrapper ECU and its chipped plastic fobs with your old keys in them. (superglue does the trick) the old ones just pull out with a bit of persuasion ;)

You wont need it programmed if you do that.

Re: the "new" key locking the car... Any Scorpio or indeed Ford key will lock the car but only the correct one will open it (As i've found out to my cost a couple of times) ;D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 27^th, 2007, 2:01pm

sounds good to me

yes, it was the indicator flash and horn parp i was surprised about.... how does it know its a different key, clever thing

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 27^th, 2007, 2:05pm

Sam, might be worth drying out the original ECU over a rad and trying it back in, would save you the hassle with the keys ;)

My thoughts are that it may well be toast by now though :(

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 27^th, 2007, 2:09pm

yeah, im not gonna bother with the old one, the ecu in the scrapper has a red key, something i have been lacking, so its actually an upgrade ;D

if anyone wants a damp ecu to play with, its free....

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 27^th, 2007, 2:26pm

haha well done on getting the beast running ;D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 27^th, 2007, 2:46pm

i had rung ford, told them the issue, they reckoned uplift, ecu, all new keys, about £500.... so im glad i spent £23 on a battery-pack drill and had a go myself ;D

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by Dave on Jan 27^th, 2007, 3:34pm

And you get to use the drill again and again 8)

Title: Re: Non-starter
Post by tintin on Jan 29^th, 2007, 12:12pm

car made it in to work this morning (40min drive), one hairy moment early on when the battery light came on, lights went dim and shortly after the hazards started up. then after 3 mins battery light went off and hazards stopped flashing. made the rest of the journey without further issue.

i assume this was the alternator "cleaning itself off" after a month off the road.