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Title: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 22nd, 2007, 11:33pm Ok that's the headline grabber out the way. Some of you may Know of Tony Bingham (AKA Madoldb****r) he's spent many years developing his BOA powered Sierra XR4x4 and helped many many people with their conversions. He's worked with Mike at boost performance to develop mods and upgrades etc... His latest project is a BOA powered RWD XR4i. The trick bit is going to be the gearbox. He is developing a small circuit that will allow a Scorpio A4LDE ( the fully electronic one ) to be controled manualy with paddle shift. In theory he recons 6 ratios will be on tap although I don't think he's sure yet that all 6 will be worthwhile ( some may be far to close in ratio ) Anyway.... His big problem at the moment is that he does not have a BOX to help development. so if anyone can GIVE, LOAN, Sell very cheaply a 24V A4LED to a good cause many Modders will be greatful! Ultimatly the controler kit could be used on our scorpios for a bit of MANUAL driving fun! Tony is based in Aldershot, more details can be found on the fordpower thread.. http://www.fordpower-uk.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2260&st=0&gopid=15367&#entry15367 Cheers TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by Octavian_P on Jan 23rd, 2007, 7:34am Sounds amazing, a paddle shift Scorpio Cosworth, it sends thrills down my spine. But what's with the 6 ratios ? The A4LDE has only 4 for going forward and one for reversing.... ??? |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 23rd, 2007, 8:19am Well it's quite simple realy, the A4LDx is basicaly an old C3 3 speeder with an overdrive attatcehd and a lockup on the torque converter. If you have 3 gears and an overdrive the overdrive can be engaged in each gear giving 6 options. may even be possible for overdrive reverese too. As I said some gears may be worthless, say 3rd and overdrive second may be so similar to make having both a waste of time.. TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by Octavian_P on Jan 23rd, 2007, 1:52pm Thanks for the information, now i understand better this A4LDE ;D ..... PS: the paddle conversion sounds even more wicked than a manual cossie ;D, I'm hopeing that maddoldb****r gets his box ;D |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by TiberiuS on Jan 23rd, 2007, 2:04pm I like the sound of this very much, lusting after my next Scorpio already ;D Better ratios would benefit the cars a lot, surely there's a way to work out the ratios from the road speed of the car in each gear now, before the conversion? Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by Highlander on Jan 23rd, 2007, 3:21pm Now I dont pretend to know much about the workings of the autobox but as far as I was aware the "overdrive" when engaged only disables top gear to keep the revs higher in 3rd and wasnt an "extra gear" as such. maybe I've got it wrong but surely 2nd gear with overdrive engaged is still second gear and therefore the same ratio only difference would be it wouldnt change up to 3rd?? The paddle shift would let you drive it like a manual but I cant see how there would be any different ratios. The paddle shift sounds good but doesnt Sports mode do the same sort of thing? (holding the revs to the max before the change)? Enlighten me somebody ;D |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 23rd, 2007, 8:44pm Yeah it works. Once you get your head into how it all works seems fairly simple. Read this first. It's a Volvo auto tech manual but works very similar to a Scorp http://caunter.ca/volvo960/ce14807.pdf Then take a look at this http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html & this http://news.hspn.com/articles/936/1/New-Paddle-Shifter-For-Any-Automatic/Page1.html Infact loads of people have these kits fitted to auto's in the States where automatic gearbox knowledge is far greater. Basically the ECU controls the box, all you do is bypass the ECU & control it manually by figuring out the control sequences. The electronic lock-up does create extra gears. Don't confuse it with normal fluid controlled torque converter lock-up that still works the same. Combined with the 4.27 diff would transform a 24V Scorp into something very trick & special. Oh & fast ;D |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by Highlander on Jan 23rd, 2007, 8:49pm too complicated for me ;D |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by TiberiuS on Jan 24th, 2007, 4:44pm I agree with the above statement, officer ;D My (limited :-/) understanding is that you have 3 gearsets plus the overdrive unit which works along with 3rd to get fourth...? Plus the lock up at 40 or so mph which drops the revs by a couple hundred...so how do you get 6 forward gears...link OD with 1st and 2nd or is there another way? So I'm thinking the first 3 ratios are the same as in the old C3, mabye the autobox in the old Capri may still have a future ::) Regards, Bruce ;) |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by tintin on Jan 24th, 2007, 6:17pm had the same on my old triumph herald ;D fitted a domolite overdrive box, 4 forward gears, but you could flick the overdrive switch in 3rd and 4th to get an extra couple of gears. it broke, so i had 8 forward and 2 reverse, didnt bother me...... my understanding is that it is an extra high/low gear before the 4 gears, and has an inhibitor to stop its use in low gears. not sure if the scorp is the same :-/ |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by Highlander on Jan 24th, 2007, 6:21pm Sam, you still got your old broken 24v box? |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by tintin on Jan 24th, 2007, 7:33pm no, left it with them, barely got my battery cover back off them ;D |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 24th, 2007, 8:00pm Right lets Clarify. Gearbox has 3 standar d gears Gearbox has Overdrive Gearbox has TC lockup All are controled by EEC-V which determins what to do depending on load and road speed. The ECU only operates the overdrive on 3rd to create the 4th ratio, and in either 3rd or 4th it can also engage the torque converter lockup which basicaly locks the flywheel to the input shaft of the gearbox preventing loss of power through the TC. Now that's what the ECU does.. Throw the ECU control in the bin ( metaphoricaly ) and you can do what the XXXX you like. to generate a veriaty of options. But some of which you may not as they may be damaging to the box. TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 25th, 2007, 2:05am Basically guys a auto is always in a state of slipage about 2 or 3 % or more. You get 4th when the ECU decides to lock up the torque converter to elimate the slip so droping the revs abit too. Based on 3% thats 180 rpm lower. So if you think of it that way you can use the lock-up on every gear creating 3 + 3 = 6 forward ratio's. The ratio with O/D is gonna be roughly 2 - 3% lower. You can do this when you control it manually once you have worked out the auto's particular sequences ;) Problems to sort is extra heat & I think you have to run the line pressure at max for manual mode to work proper but not sure. But as said it will be interesting to see if the new gears are usable. I think that also the diff needs to be changed because 1st is still way to tall. |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 25th, 2007, 8:19am I thought the Lockup & overdrive were seperate? TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by Highlander on Jan 25th, 2007, 8:36am Dave, was it you that was looking into a way of making the torque convertor lock up quicker? |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 25th, 2007, 9:13am P.S. Welcome Back Dave...... TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 25th, 2007, 10:56am Yeah another mod is to adjust the fins in the torque converter to higher the stall speed. When the torque converter stalls it still slips a little as I said & then goes into free wheeling basically. That's why you have no engine braking. The thing only stalls when the engine is trying to gain revs on the auto. Then the ECU locks it up to give you 4th. Hence the drop in revs & a new gear. This slippage is one of the reason auto's usally give worse fuel consumption & another reason for the lock up too. |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 25th, 2007, 11:40am Dave, either everything I have read that I can find says your description is wrong or I am misunderstanding your description. My understanding is that the overdrive is not the torque converter lockup. Converter lockup is indipendant of the overdrive. Also Lockup is described many places as working on 3rd & 4th Tony knows best though.. But this is from his thread on FPUK the scorpio A4DLE auto , has 4 soliniods and a T/C lock up. now an unpowered box in drive, does it require a feed to the 1st soliniod to select 1st gear? i think it does and im working on this... also,just to confirm. the box is a 3 speed box with soliniod 4 for over drive ok? if this is the case i could well have it sorted t/c lock-up at 30mph via a speed control switch or my choice a pressure switch on the box set to lock the converter on higher pressures should work very well.... sorted...... soliniods in use.........gear selected.............line out of prototype box.................Ratio acheved 1st soliniod.....................= 1st gear...............(line 1 out soliniod 1 only)...........................2.40 to 1 1st+4th soliniods.............= 2nd gear..............(line 2 out via diods to soliniods 1 and 4).......1.8 to 1 2nd soliniod....................= 3rd gear...............(line 3 out to soliniod 2 only)....................... 1.47 to 1 2nd+4th soliniod..............= 4th gear...............(line 4 out via diods to soliniods 2 and 4).......1.11 to 1 3rd soliniod.....................= 5th gear...............(line 5 out to soliniod 3 only )........................1.0 to 1 3rd +4th soliniod..............=6th gear...............(line 6 out via diods to soliniods 3 and 4 )........0.74 to1 TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by TiberiuS on Jan 25th, 2007, 2:34pm I'm with TT here, the way I understood it was that you had the 3 internal gears (like the old C3) plus the o/d unit which kicks in at 50-60mph. The drop in revs of about 200 you feel at around 40mph is the converter lockup. In overdrive the A4 behaves like a manual; torque converter locked up and manual overdrive gear engages..hence better cruise economy... The 3 standard gearset ratios are the same as the C3, so you add them to O/D to get the extra ratios..ahhh, clever ;) Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 25th, 2007, 2:36pm TT I am basically quoting what I remember from what was explained to me a few years ago now when I thought about this. I would have to look into it further to be sure. But I think one of the solinoids controls reverse when combined with solinoid 1. Basically as far as I know O/D is when the torque converter locks up, goes to the larger cog called a sun gear & a over drive band is also involved. It's the same as 2nd gear but does not use a smaller sun gear & the converter is locked I think ??? But I am at the limit of my knowledge so could be wrong ;D |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 25th, 2007, 2:38pm Dave 3032 would know about this for sure ;D Dave where are you ;) |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 25th, 2007, 2:42pm The C3 never had a torque converter lock up that's why no O/D I reckon. |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 25th, 2007, 11:20pm Tony agrees with my theory. TT |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by howiedintheplace on Jan 26th, 2007, 2:25am After digging through some tech stuff on the box I can now see how it all works. The converter lock-up is only part of the story, there is a few cogs involved too ;D So I was wrong :-[ |
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Title: Re: 6 Speed Paddel Change Box ( Cheap ) Post by twinturbo on Jan 26th, 2007, 8:28am Look on the bright side dave, you have sudenly got a gearbox with extra gears :) TT |
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