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Title: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 15th, 2007, 10:28pm I thought I'd almost got rid of the pinking a few months back....but it's come back again ??? It doesn't notice when moving, but if the car sits at tickover for a while.....traffic jam etc..... then when pulling off, the rattle is quite heavy ??? So I'm thinking that it must be due to lack of cooling, but I checked the fans at idle & they do come on & the engine temp on the dash is within the limits ??? As most of you who have read my old posts on this subject will know....the ECT, IAT, T-stat, FPR are all new & the cooling system is circulating perfectly (had a new pump last year). I'm now, after trying everything to rectify the problem, considering going to Ford with the almost new PCM that I picked up recently, & getting them to re-program it to work with the car.....how much will that cost ::) P.S.....that 'Fuel Cat' was a con, & I feel as though I've been suckered ::)... it does absolutely nothing to affect the general running of the vehicle or fuel consumption..... ::) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by TiberiuS on Apr 15th, 2007, 10:43pm Sorry to go OT Jonny, but I thought you said a while back that the Fuel Cat had made a difference...gotta say I toyed with the idea of getting one on your opinion...much to my better sense it has to be said ::). In the days when we ran the Capri, we got pinking once and it was cured by a de-coke and new dizzy/leads...Tried new plugs yet? Good luck mate. Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 15th, 2007, 11:17pm The Fuel Cat seemed to work for a while...but then again every time I replaced a part with something new, it also seemed to work for a while. I may have thought that the fuel cat was the answer to the problem...it seemed to work for a while (as everything else I did) but my head got the better of me & convinced me that a product like this could not possibly work on a modern car with a computer controlled engine ;).... my MK1 Granny seems to run fine with one fitted though :) As I said before...everytime I replace something, the pinking disappears, but then comes back again. It's been fine for a few months now (the odd crack on acceleration), but for some reason it's come back....big time ??? The plugs are new...well 10,000 miles...newish ;) My only theory on the matter...after trying everything else....is that the PCM has a fault & is not taking the correct readings from the various replaced sensors. I've always considered (in older cars) the cause of pinking to be a problem with the timing...so as the Scorp cannot be timed manually, then I'm convinced that little silver box is throwing a wobbly :) If anyone can come up with a more logical explanation, then I'd be very interested in reading it ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 16th, 2007, 7:59am hi jc can you recap what parts have been changed? i see ECT, IAT, T-stat, FPR. is this all? you think it might be heat related. have you tried running with the cover off the sparkplugs? or changing/swapping round the coil packs? maybe even going for a cooler/hotter plug? next thing would be getting a full VE scan done at one of the meets. i could then have a look at the data and compare it to mine (i'd run it on petrol for a few days). i'll have a think about what things to scan for and put it in the obd section. |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by Dave on Apr 16th, 2007, 8:02am Jonny, does it make a difference if you use , for example, Optimax or normal unleaded? What about some spark plugs that work better at a higher heat range - or some that have better insulation? Does such a thing exist ??? Was thinking these may cope with the periods of idling better. Is your MAP sensor ok? I read that manifold pressure can have an effect on pinking. Cheers |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 16th, 2007, 9:09am hi there found this (http://www.ngk.de/Spark_plugs.649.0.html). what type of plugs do you have? |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 16th, 2007, 9:29am I'm using Motorcraft AGPS 22P1's, which are the right ones for the car. I could try using a different rated plug, but i can't see why my car would be better using them when all other 2.3's seem to run fine on the original spec plugs....I'll try running with the sparkplug cover removed & see if that makes a difference. I've not changed the MAP sensor, don't really know much about it....next time I'm at the local breakers, I'll get one from the cheap doner Scorpio I've found ;) P.S......can anyone point out the MAP sensor please ::) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by petehull on Apr 16th, 2007, 11:37am Are you running on LPG? I was told that if it started pinking I should set the plug gaps smaller but I can't remember how much as mine never has a pinking problem so I havn't had to do it. I think it is the MAF sensor your after which is in the air intake between the filter and the muffler, it has a multiplug on and is held on by 2 clips and a jubilee clip... hth Pete |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 16th, 2007, 2:42pm No LPG, just petrol & the MAF is fine :) A thought has occurred to me regarding the spark plugs being right for the engine. A new engine was fitted (by previous owner) about 2 1/2 years ago. I was told that the engine was brand new from Ford, so if it is under three years old, then there's a good chance that it is a 2.3 Galaxy engine. Does anyone know if the 2.3 Galaxy uses different plugs to the 2.3 Scorp?.....It's a long shot ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 16th, 2007, 4:42pm It appears that the Galaxy does use the same plugs....so that's that theory out of the window ::) I may try setting the plug gap to 0.8 mm & see if it makes a difference :) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 16th, 2007, 5:07pm hi jc the gap on the 2.3 is 1mm. 0.8mm is for running on lpg only. what sort of mileage has your car done? is this with the same coil packs? hth |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 16th, 2007, 5:13pm Mileage is 156K, but only 58K on new engine & I replaced the coil packs last year, & besides, the car has no mis-fire issues, in fact it runs great & tickover is great....it's just that it has a tendency to pink when hot ??? I know that the gap is 1mm for Motorcraft & NGK, but Champion reckon 0.8mm for their plugs. That's what made me think of resetting the gap to 0.8mm & seing how it went ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 16th, 2007, 5:50pm hi jc have you changed the lambda sensor? how long does it happen for? a few seconds or untill it cools down a bit? i'd love to see what your fuel trims were like when this is happening, as you know, one of the causes can be a weak mixture. |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 17th, 2007, 12:30am No, I haven't changed the lambda sensor, as I've never had any fault codes come up on my little Autel OBD2 reader indicating that there may be a problem in that area....but I did get a code up when I plugged it into my mates 2.3 estate which indicated that he had a problem in that area :) It seems to pink for a while, until it gets on a run...then again, tonight I've not noticed it, but then again I haven't been sitting in traffic or idling for any length of time :) Also I removed the fuel cat today...I wonder if the fuel cat had developed a problem internally...that I suppose would explain why it has suddenly got really bad again in last fortnight & the fact that I didn't really hear any pinking tonight may be a confirmation of this :-/ I don't know how the fuel cat works but as far as I know it contains a tin alloy & magnets & doesn't add anything to the petrol, it conditions & re-arranges the molecules in the Petrol to give "a more complete combustion" :-/ If the fuel cat has broken down internally...then might this cause a restriction/resistance in fuel flow, thus causing a fuel pressure issue & hence pinking ? :-/ I must admit, I did blow through it & it seemed a tad harder than blowing through a piece of un-restricted pipe, but not alot. I don't know the internal workings of the fuel cat, but I intend to take it apart & have a look ;) Or maybe just another wild stab in the dark ::)....I suppose I'll know if the car starts pinking badly again next time I'm in traffic ;) Still gonna try the plug gap resetting though...I've got a set of NGK's in the shed, so I may compromise & set them to 0.9mm ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 18th, 2007, 12:34am Working again tonight & have not noticed any bad pinking, just a slight crack when flooring it....so it seems likely that the fuel cat may well have been the problem >:( It's said to last for 250K miles but is only guaranteed for 5k miles ???....I suppose it must have done about 20k miles since fitted (it's been in & out of the car a couple of time for comparisons)...so it may well be shot :-/ Regarding the quick crack when flooring it...I'm gonna put the NGK's in, set to 0.9mm & see if that cures the problem ;) Thanks Andrew for the time taken in offering advice & it would have been good to get a scan done & compare the results with your car....but being hundreds of miles away, then it's not really an option....even if we met half way, then it would probably be somewhere in Yorkshire ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 18th, 2007, 7:59am hi jc Thanks Andrew for the time taken in offering advice & it would have been good to get a scan done & compare the results with your car....but being hundreds of miles away, then it's not really an option....even if we met half way, then it would probably be somewhere in Yorkshire funny you should say that because i'll be in yorkshire on the 3rd of june! ;) ;D re the lambda sensor and error codes. the only codes if seen are for the built in heater not working. ones for the fueling are seperate. i'm wondering if it's flatlining at idle (very lazy switching) and only working when you rev the engine (driving). :-/ re MAF. i've worked on a car where the MAf was miles out with no code. normally it's about 0.45 at idle. this one was at 10! it made a big difference to the running of the car when changed. you don't appear to have a running issue in general, though, hence my thoughts on the lambda. just a though, can you check the wiring/plug to the crank shaft sensor. this is one of the sensors that stop pinking/knocking. hth btw, you can check the output from the lambda with a meter set for 2volts (1 volt lambda). be carefull of the exhaust. |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:05am I'll check the lambda & as for the crank shaft sensor...I'll be down the breakers either later or tomorrow to get a couple more parts off that Scorpio, so I'll get the sensor as well. As for the MAF, I've never suspected it, but I did replace it with the one I got from the above Scorp & there was no difference :) Cheers |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by tintin on Apr 18th, 2007, 11:20am are the lambdas the same as the cossie ones? if so, i have a couple of brand new ones needing a good home.....bought them but garage wouldnt fit them, would only fit their own ones :( |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 20th, 2007, 3:09am Thanks for the offer TIntin, but I think they are different & the 2.3 only has one :) Andrew....I haven't checked the lambda with the mutimeter yet, it's a job I intend to do tomorrow. Also, I've got hold of another crankshaft sensor (couple of quid, second hand) & will stick that in tomorrow as well, although I reckon it ain't gonna be easy....the vehicle I took it from had had the inlet manifold removed (by me), so it was easy to get out from above. This time it's gonna be an underneath job, so I'm gonna be working blind ::) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 20th, 2007, 7:27am hi jc re the lambda's. they're all the same. as you said, the 2.3 only has the one pre cat one. you should get the old one off the scrapper as it's easier to change to universal lambda's when you can change the plug on the bench. good luck. we'll find this issue yet! :) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 20th, 2007, 11:14am Can't get the lambda off the scrapper....someone else has discovered my find & has swiped it along with the cat & alloy wheels >:( It had to happen sooner or later I suppose ::) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 20th, 2007, 5:04pm I've changed the crankshaft sensor (wasn't too difficult) & been for a spin around the block to warm it up, then sat in the shop carpark with the engine running for ten minutes, then took it around the block again. Didn't hear any pinking, so I think we may have cracked it :) I'm not gonna get too excited yet as I'm gonna see how it goes tonight at work ;) I also swapped the throttle & TPS over with the spare one that I had, as the spare throttle felt as though it had a smoother action. I doubt whether this would have caused the pinking though :) P.S...I haven't checked the lambda yet, as I was unsure where abouts to take a voltage reading from it. |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 20th, 2007, 5:14pm hi there fingers crossed. you take a reading from the plug on the inner wing-ish. there'll be 4 wires. 2 the same colour are for the heater. it's the other 2 you want. you can also check the tps the same way, set for 5 volts. re the throttle. was it all dirty/oily inside? |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 20th, 2007, 5:40pm The throttle wasn't dirty/oily...only the black stuff that they tell you not to remove ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:02am :( >:( :( >:( ...A mix of emotions really but meaning only one thing....it's still pinking ::) It was fine for the first 30ish miles after re-connecting the battery, but then the slight hint of a crack on acceleration could be noticed, amounting to a big rattling wobbly when pulling off after ticking over for a bit on the rank ::) After that it seemed to calm down & just produce a short rattle on acceleration....but not all the time. After a long cooling run then no pinking can be heard, but drive around town on short stop/start journeys & it seems to get worse. Could it really be heat related ?....would the car benefit from having high temp plugs :-/ Are the cooling fans really working properly ?...they seem to be & the ECT is reasonably new :) I've now run out of ideas ??? I even ran the car for an hour with the lambda unplugged. The only difference it made was the fault codes P0135 - heater malfunction, & P1131 Pd (pending) came up on the Autel scanner....which I was expecting :) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 21st, 2007, 11:12am hi jc i hate your car! ;D we done running with the sparkplug cover off? what about the injectors? you not touched them yet. }{ you could try a double dose of cleaner in less than a 1/4 tank. if you try this, i'd do it on a day of in case it gets a bit smokey, etc. next it would be changing them/fuel rail. :-/ i still think a scan is needed to see the fuel trims. |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 21st, 2007, 11:43am You hate my car ?....You should try driving it everyday ;D No not tried it with the cover off yet, I suppose it won't hurt to try :) About the cleaner, funny you should say that, cos last night I bought a 500ml bottle of Nitrox Hot Shot & shoved it in with only a third of a tank in, so that may do some good :-/ |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 22nd, 2007, 2:11am It's defo been better with the cleaner in (& faster). So next logical step is to give the injectors a thorough clean & see what happens ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by ferretmobile on Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:20am Hi JC, this sounds good, I hope it stays nice and pink free ;) It was great meeting up with you yesrerday. See you soon, Ferret ;D |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 22nd, 2007, 12:29pm Great to meet you & your wife Ferret & hope the grill mod goes to plan ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 24th, 2007, 1:57am Right then.... Much to the relief of Scorpio_man, I would imagine ;)....I've got some excellent news ;D There was no evidence of pinking tonight, even after idling 8) Going on the basis that the cleaner seemed to help, yesterday I cleaned up the spare fuel rail & injectors...not just a few squirts of carb cleaner, but nearly a whole can...I absolutely drenched them. The injectors didn't want to come out so I plugged one end of the fuel rail & then filled it with carb cleaner, then plugged the other end & left it for an hour. Emptied it out & then just kept spraying inside the injectors via the holes..."that should clean it out good & proper" I thought ;)...so then fitted the new fuel rail. I then got to thinking at what point did I first notice the pinking...It must have been nigh on a year ago...around about the time that I did the heater matrix & replaced the ECT, T-stat & temp sender. As the T-stat seems to work fine & the temp is always bang in the middle, I wondered about the ECT :-/ It was new, but then I thought that, if it was at fault, then it wouldn't be the first time that FMD have sold me a part that didn't actually work properly....last September they sold me a new FPR... .....an FPR that as soon as was fitted, the car wouldn't start when hot, & on removing it I could actually blow through it with ease...I remember thinking & I wrote it on here...."Unless I've got a set of lungs that can inflate car tyres, then this FPR is faulty" ;) FMD actually, eventually gave me a refund...but only because they said it had been lost....Hmmm....what they meant to say was "yep, we pressure tested it & yep, it was faulty, but as we can't possibly admit to selling something that somehow passed quality control when it shouldn't have done, then we're gonna have to say that it got lost somewhere in transit" ::) Anyway, back to the ECT...I replaced it with the spare one I had (got lots of spares now ;)) I'm not entirely sure weather it was the Nitrox Hot Shot, cleaning the injectors or replacing the ECT that seems to have completely cured the pinking.... It could have been a mixture of all....carbon build up, gummed injectors & faulty ECT ? :-/ All I know is, that tonight has been the first night in along time that I've not even heard a single rattle or 'crack' on acceleration....& believe me, I listen for it every night....it's become an obsession ::).....& what makes me even happier is that the fuel consumption seems to have improved ;D Thanks to everyone that took the time to put forward any suggestions, especially Scorpio_man, who seems to have been just as determined as me in trying to cure the problem ;)......Andrew, I owe you a big drink mate & if you're ever in Essex (not that you'd want to be ;)) , then let me know :) Sorry to waffle on for so long, but this is the third time now that I have posted this problem...so it's had a few replies....but this has been the post that seems to have finally resolved the problem....third time lucky eh ;) So I thought, now that the problem is finally solved , then it's gotta be a long & drawn out finale ;) Exit stage left & no more encores...I promise ;D |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by petehull on Apr 24th, 2007, 6:41am Good to hear Johnnycab, It's good to read when someone gets rid of a problem like this, hope it is the end to it for you, suppose you have pulled the last few hairs by now, it may grow back.... Really pleased for you Pete :D |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by Simmo on Apr 24th, 2007, 7:09am Good news JC.....Mike ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by scorpio_man on Apr 24th, 2007, 7:50am hi jc good news! :) that's three good fixes this week, with the owners sticking with it and getting good advice from members of the site. that's what makes this site so special. 8) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 24th, 2007, 10:07am []....totally agree 8) P.S.....I've still got plenty of hair left....it's a new bag of marbles that I need & therapy to stop that rattling in my ears ;D |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by Dave on Apr 24th, 2007, 2:04pm Excellent news, well done 8) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by ferretmobile on Apr 24th, 2007, 5:09pm :D ferret |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by jonnycab on Apr 29th, 2007, 4:18am I didn't want to mention this, as I said that I wouldn't add anymore to this post, but a couple of days later, guess what ? Yep...it started pinking again ::) I was determined to sort it out myself, once & for all, as posting it on here again would probably have had me lynched ;) The good news is that I managed to fix it & it has now been 'pink free' for 3 nights now :) The problem was........where the EGR pipe goes into the back of the inlet manifold, there is a double lipped rubber sealing ring. When I changed the manifold recently, I made sure that this was seated properly, but thought at the time, that being as the hole is so big, then surely that ring isn't going to seal it real good, considering how much pressure/suction is created inside the manifold. Removing the securing bracket bolts from the manifold in situ was just too fiddly ::), so I stuck a load of quick steel around where the EGR enters the manifold & it seems to have done the trick ;D Looking closely at the securing bracket, it seems to be at a slight angle & not at an exact right angle to the EGR hole. The bracket doesn't look bent, so I am wondering whether the angle of the nuts in the manifold may not be truely at right angles. I have heard of & known other 2.3 owners who have had pinking that they just couldn't get rid of & maybe that is the reason.....maybe there was a casting problem with a number of manifolds, which meant that the holding nut holes weren't cast at exact right angles ?.....even a degree out would cause the EGR sealing ring to be seated at a slight angle & let air into the manifold ;) Anyway....problem absolutely & definately solved.....& no more posts from me regarding pinking ;) |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by Kjetil S on Apr 29th, 2007, 9:10am For now... Just kidding ;D |
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Title: Re: Pinking again....again Post by petehull on Apr 29th, 2007, 9:30am Phew! This could become known as your Pink phase.... Pete ;D ;D |
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