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        General >> Problems >> Idle Control Valve
        
(Message started by: Alastair on Apr 24^th, 2007, 7:06pm)

Title: Idle Control Valve
Post by Alastair on Apr 24^th, 2007, 7:06pm

Hi Guys
S reg 2.3 16 v Auto

Can anybody please tell me where / what the Idle control valve is and what the problems would be if this packed in.
Sunday afternoon - Edinburgh City By-pass - outside lane - 70mph ish. car coughs and cuts out. Friendly AA man can't restart. figures its the fuel pump
(having listened under car and heard it priming but cutting out). Garage checked fuel pump and say this is OK,-fuel and spark present. - say it is the Idle Control Valve. - Help please
Alastair

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Spannerdemon on Apr 24^th, 2007, 8:19pm

The Idle control Valve sits on the inlet manifold at the front of your engine. It monitors the minute amount of air entering the throttle body when the throttle butterfly valves are closed, to ensure that the engine will not cut out when idling at say traffic lights. There is a tamper proof screw on the inlet manifold. DO NOT mess with this.

These cars are all approx 10 years old. The valves fail. New one, or a thorough clean is the usual way. They need a new gasket. If you check Ebay, they come up quite often, and I have it on good authority from a guy at Ford, that many of them are the same.
The one on my car at the moment is actually listed for a Ford Ka, ;D but it works 100%.

If you look half way down this post from the Granada and Scorp site, you'll get a good idea of what's involved.

HERE (http://www.granada-and-scorpio-online.com/forums/showthread.php?s=efadefd9fdcc5e415f04199596a2a047&threadid=69)

ALSO.....Not sure if your car has a MAF, perhaps someone could advise you, as I know that these can cause probs when dirty. The 12v (like mine) doesn't have a MAF.

Hope this helps you. ;)

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 24^th, 2007, 8:53pm

hi there

can we have a bit more info. :)

aa can't re-start it, or it starts, but won't run?

if it starts, will it run with a bit of throttle?

with it cutting out at speed, i'd say it was electrical.
try swapping the heated windscreen relay with the ignition one.

relays (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook134.gif)

hth

btw, i'd have a look (obd-2 scan) at it, if you can get it through to glasgow. we normally meet at the end of the M74. see the meetings section (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin12;action=display;num=1176453952).

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by jonnycab on Apr 25^th, 2007, 1:57am

Wouldn't be a fault with the fuel cut off switch would it ?.....

......If the fuel pump is working fine, then that's the only reason I can think of why a car would suddenly cut out at 70mph ;)

Regarding the car not being able to restart, then I would plump towards the fuel pressure regulator rather than the idle control valve :)

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Alastair on Apr 25^th, 2007, 8:03am

Thanks Guys - I will check out all these helpful tips

Scorpio-man

It will start every 3rd or 4th attempt for a second or so. won't catch and run on throttle.

I will let you know

Alastair

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 25^th, 2007, 11:16am

hi there

i'd forget about the idle control valve for the moment. sounds more like fueling, be it the pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter.

these are the things to check first.

also check the spark plugs. if fuel is getting to the injectors, then they will be wet with all this non starting.

hth

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 25^th, 2007, 12:27pm

hi there

i've moved this to the problem section to see if we get more ideas.

you don't have a battery issue? flicking neddles?

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Spannerdemon on Apr 25^th, 2007, 12:58pm

Try removing relay 17, which is the fuel injection pump relay.

Give it a good solid tap, and re-fit it. Then re-start your engine. These fuel injection relays are a swine to diagnose as they work intermittantly, and then the contacts stick, causing complete engine shutdown. When the contacts cool again, they unstick, and off you go again.

Tip that an auto electrician gave me years ago was to 'very carefully' remove the relay cover (the 'box' part), and look at the mini circuit board inside. If there is any sign of brown marks on it, the relay is almost certainly past its best. You can also see the contacts for any signs of pitting which is what happens when they stick and get overheated.

I agree with the others, I don't think the AA man was right here. I only gave you info about the Idle Valve because that's what you asked for in your post.

I too think this sounds more like an intermittant fuelling problem.

I had this years ago on a Vauxhall Carlton 2.0i. Every so often, driving along without a care in the world, the engine would just stop. No warning. No nothing. Just stop. Stone dead.

VERY dangerous if you were in moving traffic. It was causing me grave concern as it was a significant safety issue for my family.

I'd almost flatten the battery trying to start it again.
Then, some hours later you could go out, and it would start as though nothing had happened.

Took 6 Months, four garages, including a Main Dealer, and countless further incidents to diagnose. I eventually found it quite by chance by doing what I've suggested to you above. When I went to buy a new relay, that's when the auto-electrician gave me the info about the old one. He took the top off the old one, and sure enough, it was all brown, and a dead giveaway.

May work.....let's hope. ;)

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by jonnycab on Apr 27^th, 2007, 1:59am

Have you tried replacing the fuel pump relay yet, as Spanners suggested ?

The reason I ask is because the same exact thing happened to me tonught ???

Just driving along at 30mph, when all of a sudden the car just dies.....the engine just cut out & would not restart after many attempts >:(

I still had electrics & being as I had recently checked/cleaned the plugs, coils, leads, fuel pressure regulator, injectors, idle control valve etc because of a recent problem, my only thought was the fuel pump or fuel cut off switch.

Then I remembered reading Spanners post about the relay. I have a few spare relays in the boot & as luck would have it, one of them was the fuel pump relay :D

I stuck it in & she fired up straight away......& has been fine all night....phew :)

Spanners....if you hadn't mentioned about the fuel pump relay, then I probably would never have thought to change it....I would probably have been there pulling fuses out until the AA arrived & towed me home, & I would have missed an evenings work....& possibly a mortgage payment :(

So Spanners....I owe you a big drink mate......but then again, as you already owe me a big drink..... I guess that makes us quits ;) ;D

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Spannerdemon on Apr 27^th, 2007, 10:03am

No worries buddy. Glad you're running again. I'll pick up my BAFTA... (Beer at Four in the Afternoon)... later !! ;D ;D

I remember not long after I got my Scorp, that it was YOU who diagnosed my ECU problems after torrential rain went down the loom behind the battery onto the ECU pins. It was running like a sick pig. :o

That's what I've always said about this site. Shared information between us owners of the cars, is the best of any car site on the web.

I've sent you a PM. :D

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Alastair on May 2^nd, 2007, 6:04pm

Update - Car has been in the garage since I started this post on 24 April. I weas advised at the time that the problem was the idle copntrol valve. (this is a ford dealer in Edinburgh). I passed on a copy of all your responses but they were adamant and fitted a new valve. Since then they have had the car running and serviced it.
I was on my way to pick it up lat Thursday when they phoned to say it had cut out on the test run and they could not restart it.
From then till now they have been testing everything thay could think of and i have had reports that every single diagnostic check is reading ok. ??
NOW the bit where I urgently need your help. THey have phoned today to say that it could be the ECU (but they are not sure) and that they cost £700 they also now say that the exhaust is blocked and needs replacec (cat I presume)
Could the car have been running perfectly up to till it cut out if these were thr=e problems and would all the diagnostics carried out not highlight a problem with the ECU. I love the car but £ 1000 makes it a difficult decision.
Help please
Alastair

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by TiberiuS on May 2^nd, 2007, 6:44pm

No no no no :o. I've never had a bad cat so don't know how it'd feel but making the car die at high speed sounds a bit unlikely to me. If it's the ECU, get yourself a known good one from someone on here who's stripping a 2.3 down for parts.

IMO main dealers aren't the best people for servicing/troubleshooting, I had a problem a couple of years back with my car not wanting to start hot, they had it in twice and reckoned they couldn't find a thing wrong and it could be this or that, in the end I did it myself. Ask the dealer whether they've carried out a fuel pressure check. Also, might be a long shot but have you tried a new fuel pump relay?

Regards, Bruce :).

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by tintin on May 2^nd, 2007, 6:55pm

hmmm, sounds a bit dodge to me, i would ask them to fit the old IACV back on the car, and ask to take it away free of charge, as so far they have diagnosed nothing, and are just guessing.....(at your expense !)

my blocked cat produced a flat spot when trying to accelerate hard, but never stopped it from starting !

you can pick up a spare ecu for much less than that from someone on this site (i would reckon on £50), easy enough for you to do yourself (i know, i have two left hands and managed it). you should also check the PATS light to see if its flashing any codes. sounds electric to me, rather than mechanical, if sometimes it starts and runs fine, sometimes does nothing. PATS may be disabling the car, ECU may be broken. was it raining at the time?

ps there are a few of us in edinburgh that can lend a hand, if you can pry it out of the dealers hands. Highlander is very handy, and has plenty of spares. ;D helped me get my baby back on the road with minimum cost......and a friendly smile.

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Highlander on May 2^nd, 2007, 7:08pm

Yep i have a crate of 2.3 bits somewhere ;D

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Spannerdemon on May 3^rd, 2007, 7:37am

Quote:

COULD be the ECU....COULD be the CAT

They're fishing my friend.....they're fishing. They don't KNOW...Not a good sign at all.

Go back to my post, and you'll see that I too had my car at the Main Dealers for them to fix it.
First revelation was that "Sorry Sir, but we don't have the equipment to fit your under bonnet Diagnostic Plug, but even if we did, it doesn't test the fuel system" !! :o :o
Comment by me....along the lines of..."What fonking use is it then" !

Anyway to cut a long story short. they replaced leads, plugs etc etc etc, and took me and it for a test drive, proclaiming it to be running perfectly........and yes, it broke down within five minutes of leaving their workshops with the very same fault......Sound familiar!!!! ::) ::)

I join with the others.......Get it back from this garage ASAP. It sounds as though they are baffled, and just pulling ideas out of a hat. Waste of space I think. I agree with Tinitn, they haven't actually sorted it out so make a stand and refuse to pay for the work.
I ended up threatening my Vauxhall dealer with court after they insisted on charging for work done, but they backed down when I said that they hadn't fixed the fault, and that THAT was why I'd taken the car to them.

Highlander is your best bet. He'll sort you out I'm sure!! But DO try the Relay. :)

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by scorpio_man on May 3^rd, 2007, 8:37am

hi there

have a look at the 2 rubber pipes that come out of the exhaust manifold and go to the transducer on the r/h inner wing. have they blown off? if so, then yes the exhaust is blocked.

a new (patterned) cat is about £100 + delivery and can be fitted for about £30-£50. no need to replace exhaust usually.

i'd get your car back BEFORE they do some damage to it! >:(

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Highlander on May 4^th, 2007, 8:56pm

Ok, Alastair and I have just met up and had a look at it.

It appears to be a wiring/multiplug fault at the EDIS module (its screwed onto the inner wing directly under the coolant tank, you can see it down between the coolant reservoir and the windscreen washer reservoir)

The car started and by moving the wiring at the EDIS multiplug very slightly we managed to have the car running perfectly, running roughly and managed to stall it completely.

I have a multiplug on a 2.0 Estate which i'm fairly sure will be the same as the 2.3
The plan is to cut off the old multiplug off and replace it with the spare one.

I did try another EDIS module which i know to be working but moving the wiring gave the same results.

Here's hoping but i'm fairly confident thats the problem ;D

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by scorpio_man on May 4^th, 2007, 9:04pm

good work stuart. :)

great work from the main dealer as well! ;D }{

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Highlander on May 6^th, 2007, 2:55pm

EDIS multiplug replaced, car started first time and runs perfect!

Problem solved ;D

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Alastair on May 6^th, 2007, 5:43pm

Many thanks to all who responded and especially to Stuart whom gave up his time on a Friday evening and a Sunday afternoon of what is a holiday weekend.

As Stuart says the car is running and starting as it should and idles rock steady at 850 rpm.

In response to all concerned over the carage charges and advice given - i can advise that on Friday, before I had contacted Stuart, the garage had advised (unprompted) that there would be no charge for any of the diagnostic work (2 days worth) nor for the new idle control valve that they fitted. In fact there would be no charge at all except for the service. This I think is more than fair.

Anyway, touch wood, the car as of now seems better than ever.

Thanks again to all

Alastair

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by scorpio_man on May 6^th, 2007, 6:19pm

hi there

glad you got it running again and credit where it's due to the main dealer for not charging.

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by jonnycab on May 6^th, 2007, 7:46pm

What a result...I bet you're over the moon alastair...

I still can't believe that the main dealer wanted to stuff you for £700, when all that was needed was a new multiplug on the EDIS :o

Well done Stuart for nailing the problem ;)

One thing still mystifies me though..... if FMD mechanics didn't have a clue, then why are they employed as such ?

It seems, that all dealers want to do nowadays is 'plug the car in',..... there doesn't seem to be any attempt at solving a problem by process of elimination ???....It makes me wonder just how qualified these mechanics are & can they really be trusted with your car :-/

As for not charging you a penny...then I admire them for that,....but it was the least they could do really & by not charging you & letting you keep the new IACV, then they keep their good reputation intact.....no-one likes a visit from the OFT, especially a main dealer ;)

P.S....do you still have your old idle control valve ?....as I'm looking for a good working one ;)

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Highlander on May 6^th, 2007, 10:02pm

Yep theres been a few horror stories in the past along the same lines as this one, with the main dealer replacing nearly everything hoping to hit it lucky and solve the problem.

The majority though seem quite happy to charge the customer for all this unnecessary work so hats off to the guys who had Alastair's car and didn't charge him.

He'll probably use them again now, if they had fitted some bits and pieces (ECU at £700 etc) and charged him and the car still didnt work I dont think he'd be back ;)

Title: Re: Idle Control Valve
Post by Fidget on May 9^th, 2007, 2:03pm

I agree, this just cannot be the IACV, it has no function at 70mph (as its name suggests, it is brought into use during idle). I've had a failed IACV and it in no way affected driving, but it did cause very low idle speed on cold start, otherwise there was no affect.

Itrs worrying to hear that a FMD has fleeced you for a new one, and I agree that you should refuse to pay the bill. But it s even more worrying to hear that they have no idea. If it really was the ECU they should have the equipment to show you (or print a report showing) exactly what leads them to that conclusion. Frankly, it seems to me that they are basing their judgements on pure guesswork, maybe they don't even have the Ford Diagnostic equipment?