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        General >> Problems >> after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
        
(Message started by: penny11 on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:52am)

Title: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by penny11 on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:52am

I am thinking of buying a Ultima Estate 24v, but it won't start. the owner renewed cam chains and tensioners a while ago, but since then it won't start >:(

Fuel pressure seems to be there, a spark, albeit weak, but it will not fire?
Has the PATS gone all sulky because the battery was disconnected, or is it possible that the ECU has a problem?

An aside, is there anyone in Chester/N Wales/Wirral that has an OBD connector, and wants to earn some easy money?

many thanks in advance.......

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Spannerdemon on May 2^nd, 2007, 11:22am

Quote:

the owner renewed cam chains and tensioners a while ago, but since then it won't start

First thing I'd be thinking is..... has he got the timing correct? Have the sprockets, pulleys and chain etc been aligned in their correct positions? If NOT, then apart from it not starting (and it never will if it's been wrongly assembled), damage could have been cause when he's tried to start it. Valves hitting things etc etc. Not good! :o

If the valve or ignition timing is out as a result, then there's no way it will EVER start until it's fixed.

Whatever.....There's no way I'd be even thinking of buying it without getting him to sort out this issue, otherwise you could have some nasty surprises/big bills coming up.

I'd be very wary, unless the car is SO GOOD and SO CHEAP that you can afford the garage work to get it fixed.....(knocked off the asking price of course). But then IMHO, a careful owner wouldn't even try and sell a car in this condition anyway ;)

There's plenty of good 'running' Scorpio's around without getting involved in a scenario like this.

Personally I'd walk away from this one.

You could be buying a real can of worms. Do yourself a favour.....Forget it! ;)

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by penny11 on May 2^nd, 2007, 12:53pm

:)

i think you are right.... :(

it sounds OK when it turns over, but i can't see inside....! :D

It is the Estate, which is what i am after, but i can't think apart from the timing, what it can be...?

thanks......

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Spannerdemon on May 2^nd, 2007, 1:24pm

I'm sure there will be a better one for sale. One that works. :)

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by TiberiuS on May 2^nd, 2007, 3:18pm

[]

If it turns over without the valves smashing on the piston crowns and it sounds ok then it probably is but you've got no idea how well the work was done. Could be anything from a bad/unplugged sensor stopping it from starting to something more serious like the timing...but unless you have the time and some good tools it's not worth risking IMO.

Far better to part with another £400 and find one that you can belt along a quiet road and say "yeah, that works" ;D ;)

Regards, Bruce :).

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Dave2302 on May 2^nd, 2007, 3:28pm

Hi,

If it sounds normal cranking over, there is a possibly very easy fix.

After I had mine all apart to fit the main wiring loom, I put it all back together and it cranked but wouldn't fire.....

I had missed the plug beneath the temp sensor which goes down to the crank sensor, I'm a proffessional and this plug is dead easy to miss and they just wont fire.

:-[

If you can get a scan to see if it is showing a crank sensor fault, cos mine did, and it took 2 minutes to find the plug and connect it !! You might be buying a bargain if this is all thats wrong ;D

I find it difficult to beleive that anyone who is capable of stripping one of these down and replacing the chains, then getting it all back together again too, would make such a drastic mistake and time it all up wrong !

regards Dave

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Dave2302 on May 2^nd, 2007, 3:34pm

By the way, I dont disagree with whats been said above !! However good Cossie estates are hard to find, so if it is local to you and the rest of the car and work looks ok, (and of course the price is right) then I'd definitely scan it before walking away !!

Dave

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Spannerdemon on May 2^nd, 2007, 3:42pm

Quote:

I find it difficult to beleive that anyone who is capable of stripping one of these down and replacing the chains, then getting it all back together again too, would make such a drastic mistake and time it all up wrong !

In the time that I worked for Perkins Diesel engine plant, I recall that we 'put right' over 2 THOUSAND engines where even professional garages had done exactly this. The most common mistake was to time them 180 degrees out. I've known experienced engine builders make exactly this mistake, often with very expensive results. Engines timed on the wrong stroke, and one with dreadful compression problems........ where the fitter had forgotten to fit the piston rings!! Seriously. }{ }{

Stripping an engine is quite an easy thing to do. Putting it back together again properly is also easy.....if you know what you are doing.

If it IS just the crank sensor plug, then well and good, but I'd still be VERY suspicious of a seller who was trying to sell me a non-runner after carrying out work on it. VERY suspicious. :)

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Dave2302 on May 2^nd, 2007, 3:57pm

;D

Yeah SD,

I make you right, and during my years in the trade I too have seen some dreadful mistakes made by so called professionals..... }{ }{

However, over the years I have also bought some real bargains, where a conciencious owner has painstakingly re - built things only to be fooled by a simple fault and "given up on it" ;D

As I said, I agree with you fully, but still think if the price / condition is right, (and bearing in mind good cossie estates are the proverbial "hens teeth"), I personally would want to satisfy myself that it wasn't something simple before walking away.

I have also worked on a lot of non starting 24V 's and often found disconnected crank sensor after major works, because of the location of the plug its dead easily missed. A simple scan wouldn't hurt, if I were nearer I'd offer to do it for free! ;)

Regards Dave

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by penny11 on May 2^nd, 2007, 4:42pm

:D thanks Dave.....

The seller does seem genuine, but that means nothing....i know !
Sorry to labour the point, but just to recap then, if he hasn't connected the Crank sensor, will an OBD scan point to this?
Does anyone in N Wales/Chester/Liverpool area want to earn easy money doing a quick scan?

Thanks guys..... ;)

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Snoopy on May 2^nd, 2007, 4:52pm

Also well worth have a very slow good read of THIS ARTICLE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/idleprob.htm) which might help and shed some light on the matter.

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by penny11 on May 2^nd, 2007, 5:05pm

Snoopy,
thanks for the article, what a 'mare! i hope the parts desk didn't do something similar this time...?
cheers

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Dave2302 on May 2^nd, 2007, 5:52pm

Penny,

Yes, a scan of the Powertrain Control Module will show crank sensor / signal missing if its just left unplugged !!

Good Luck,

Regards Dave

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by martin_rowe on May 3^rd, 2007, 12:10pm

no ht spark or injection if crank sensor un plugged. if you have spark & fuel would start checking cam timing ect.

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by penny11 on May 3^rd, 2007, 1:56pm

.... :( hmm, i see what you mean...... oh dear......

thanks for all your advice..... i will let you know how we get on

;)

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Spannerdemon on May 3^rd, 2007, 3:47pm

Forget it. Not worth the hassle. ;)

Yeah, for parts only...But that's all I'd buy it for.

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Dave on May 3^rd, 2007, 5:32pm

How much? Could be a bargain, even if it is bits only.

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by TiberiuS on May 3^rd, 2007, 5:53pm

The way I see it is that you've got pressure at the rail but are the injectors pulsing? You might have pressure but nothing getting into the cylinders, that sounds like an electric fault ;)

Does it smell of petrol when you crank it?

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by Dave2302 on May 4^th, 2007, 9:28am

Quote:

How much? could be a bargain, even if its bits only

;D

My sentiments exactly

;)

Title: Re: after camchains, 24v won't start! OBD?
Post by howiedintheplace on May 8^th, 2007, 1:10am

Bought a couple of cars like this before.

One was PATS related the other just started up after 5-6 attempts but the guy said he had been trying for 4 weeks ???

1. Battery has to be 100% O.K

2. Spark should be good not weak as you say?

3. If spark then the injectors should fire as they use the same trigger, if not check PATS is as it should be.

4. Try another ECU if possible.

5. If stood a long time then put some good fuel down the bores.

6. Make sure all wires to the battery are connected & correctly.

7. Make sure the CATs are not blocked.

8. Cam timing only has to be out a tooth for them to hit so we will assume it's o.k.
& if it was way out & not hitting it would back fire.

9 Check cam sensor is connected for injector timing signal.

This list could go on for ever ;D