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Title: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 19th, 2007, 8:50pm Just been having another look at Alastair's 2.3. It seems to have an intermittent fuel pump problem. When the ignition is turned on there is a small amount of petrol pumped through then the flow stops. The fuel pump gives a slight thump then stops. Tried another fuel pump on the car and it does exactly the same. Tried the fuel pump off the car direct to 12v and it runs constantly as it should. Have replaced relay 17 and no difference, relay clicks fine on ignition. It seems to be an electrical problem as the car will sometimes start and run perfectly. Does anyone have any experience in this area? I'm trying to find out where the feed for the fuel pump comes from, if its definitely 12v and if there is any fancy stuff that might stop it from running correctly? Stuart |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by scorpio_man on May 19th, 2007, 9:06pm hi stuart could it be the PATS? when you're talking about the pump stopping, it does after about 3 secs unless you start the engine. or are you saying it's on for less time than that? ??? hth |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 19th, 2007, 9:15pm Hi Andrew. It doesnt run as long as 3 seconds. I would reckon theres about enough petrol to fill the lid of a coke bottle and it only runs for a fraction of a second. The Pats seems ok and is not flashing any codes. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by mike on May 19th, 2007, 9:18pm Have you tried bypassing the fuel cutoff (the red button in the boot)? These things can act funny sometimes. Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 19th, 2007, 9:38pm Is there a vacuum in the fuel tank preventing fuel from flowing. Might be worth checking your filler cap. Try running the engine (not driving it), without the cap. A minor fault but one which can cause exactly these symptoms. Basically, if air can't get in, fuel can't flow out. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by jonnycab on May 19th, 2007, 11:39pm I've not had the pleasure of dealing with the fuel pump side of things.......yet ::)....so I'm just having a wild stab in the dark...... Is the fuel guage working properly ?....if not...... Could it be a bad earth to the fuel pump ? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 19th, 2007, 11:47pm Could be any of the above, need to check the wiring i think if i can find out where it goes ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by mike on May 20th, 2007, 10:12am 12V for the pump is from fuel relay, via fuse F42 to inertia cut off switch (violet/orange wire), thence to pump (violet/orange again). Intermittent contacts in inertia switches are not unheard of. Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on May 20th, 2007, 2:49pm Have you tried bypassing the fuel cutoff (the red button in the boot)? Hi MIke I am the "proud" owner of the car that has the problem being discussed here and which Highlander is valiantly trying to cure. Is the red button a fuel cut off or is it a reset button. If its a cut off button then I realy do fancy the idea of bypassing it. I can see the point of a fuel cut off point in race or competion cars (mounted on the outside though) but not hidden away and being yet another thing to go wrong. JC - the fuel guage is ok and reading is spot on. SD - yes we think there is a vacuum Thanks guys - watch this space |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by mike on May 20th, 2007, 3:48pm Hi Alastair, This cut off switch is a safety feature: it's an inertia switch which trips if there is a shock, thereby shutting off the fuel pump and lessening fire risks in case of an accident. The red button is there for resetting the switch. I suggested bypassing it for diagnosis purposes only. But I don't think it's a good idea to have it permanently disabled. The contacts inside the switch can become oxydised causing the fuel pump to behave somewhat whimsically... Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 20th, 2007, 9:29pm Ok, the fuel pump if def 12v so we could try running it direct from a 12v supply, (we were a bit unsure of the voltage before so didnt try this). |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by petehull on May 20th, 2007, 9:29pm I was told that the cut off switch had to be fitted by law on cars with EFI as in the event of an accident the fuel could still be pumping from fractured fuel lines onto or causing fire....There should be a notice in the car advising what to do if it is activated...ref handbook Pete |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Scorpio_Mike on May 20th, 2007, 9:47pm I think the fuel cut off switch is more to do with electric fuel pumps than EFI - in an accident the fuel pump would keep running, pumping fuel as long as there is fuel in the tank and 12v connected to it ! Back in the days of mechanical fuel pumps, engine stops, so does the fuel pump. I recall when I put a turbo kit on my XR3, had to ditch the mechanical fuel pump and install a high pressure electric one but the engine was carburettor, not fuel injected. Fuel pump was powered through a purple relay - which failed so often I had to keep a spare in the glovebox...seems like this is a weak part as had 3 or 4 failures in my Mk2 Granada 2.8i and a couple on my Sierra XR4i. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 20th, 2007, 9:54pm Racking my brains to try and help here. Recently had a vehicle with very very similar symptoms. Fired, ran for 3 seconds, and failed. Absolute COW to find. Turned out to be the Ignition Amplifier. There was a cut off built into it which stopped the fuel flow if there was insufficient power in the ignition circuit. Don't know if Scorpio's have these, but just a thought? Also, years ago, had a guy with almost exactly this problem. Turned out someone had put sugar in his fuel tank. Effectively and totally blocks the system. Not nice to suggest, but you never know...... :o The ONLY other thing I'm now going towards, is a plain old fashioned blockage somewhere in the fuel system. Collapsed pipe/hose. Foreign body, broken or deteriorating component within the fuel system or similar? You could always blow back into the fuel tank with compressed air. Can sometimes clear almost impossible to find blockages in the actual fuel delivery tubes on the tank itself. However, if this clears the obstruction, then you'll need to remove and flush or replace the tank, as it will surely happen again. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 20th, 2007, 10:44pm Dont know about the blockage, the pump doesnt run for more than a split second, the second pump we connected to the car did the same but when this pump was connected to 12v it ran constantly. I think we can replace/bypass the fuel cut off switch, if that doesnt cure it we can try a direct 12v feed to the pump while cranking the engine |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Snoopy on May 21st, 2007, 7:12am The reason why the pump stops when you switch on. IF the engine is NOT running there is a pressure sensor in the fuel line. When it reaches working pressure it switches OFF.. The one you tested on the bench was just free running and thats why there is a difference in behaviour. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 21st, 2007, 7:39am We had the fuel pipe off though Dave, there was no pressure. plus the second pump/tank gave the same result even though there was no petrol in it |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Snoopy on May 21st, 2007, 9:26am Sorry slightly misread your post and others have suggested what I would so Sorry can't help any more ATM will keep thinking. Dave. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 21st, 2007, 12:48pm Have you checked the roll-over valve. May be blocked, fractured or jammed? HERE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/fuel/general/RollOverValv.pdf) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 21st, 2007, 1:27pm Hi Stuart, Just some more thought ...... The way the system works is the ECU supplies the signal to trip on the fuel pump relay which then sends 12 volt to the pump safety switch then to the pump. AHBS, my first check would be safety switch, then monitor the signal to the fuel pump relay from the ECU. I have had vehicles before which lose the signal from the ecu for some reason then they don't run the fuel pump as they should. Only cure is an ECU change. ;) HTH Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 21st, 2007, 4:41pm Guys, I always understood the priming burst was timed and not pressure sensitive :-/ Any excess pressure would be relieved by the FPR normally - BUT, some pumps do have an overload feature in case the FPR or part of the system becomes blocked, a long shot but are the lines and filter clear? Most cars are designed to work with an amount of positive pressure in the tank...IMO if you find any pressure in the tank it'll be positive rather than negative and as SD says, running with the cap off would eliminate it anyway. Check for signal to the relay coil, if there's a stable voltage going to the coil you're looking for a loom/earth/switch fault, if the coil isn't getting the voltage you're looking on the ECU side of things. Hope this helps some. Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 21st, 2007, 5:02pm LOL Bruce Quote:
[] ;) Dave Wrote:- Quote:
Bruce Wrote:- Quote:
I bet you first had this on a V12 Jag LOL, cos I know I did ;D ;D ;D Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 21st, 2007, 5:27pm Quote:
LMAO ;D You read my mind Dave ;D When I got the V12 it had a 'minor fuel pump issue' on one of the tanks...i.e. woudn't start ::) Spent ages trying to work it out, old Lucas weren't that bad ::) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 21st, 2007, 6:48pm We have already tried the ECU change, still did exactly the same.. will try the bypass of the fuel cut off and the direct 12v to the pump and report back ;D Stuart |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 21st, 2007, 8:13pm Hi Stuart, Well, having already tried the ECU you are doing exactly what I would, so my moneys on the cut off switch or wiring at fuel pump relay (fuse box) end. ;) Bruce... that V12 fault is so common, I've fixed loads of them, but like you the first one took me ages to figure out ;D Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by tintin on May 21st, 2007, 8:15pm grandma and eggs probably...... could it be the pats disabling the car? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 21st, 2007, 10:50pm Tried the above, got the car running perfectly for 5 mins then it cut out slowly as if a petrol supply was cut. Couldn't restart it, can smell petrol at the exhaust but the fuel pump still only pumps a small amount then stops. when the car is sitting with the ignition on the fuel pump can be heard to click every 30 seconds or so. PATS is working, showing no code Will test the supply next |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 22nd, 2007, 9:02am Fuel Pressure Regulator ? think it needs a look at some live data when it's running, like ltft's etc, perhaps put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail...... Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 22nd, 2007, 11:38am would try that if we could get it running ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 22nd, 2007, 12:12pm Stuart. Have you (I know this is naughty, don't try it at home {}) bridged the connectors for the relay terminals in the fusebox socket? Are you getting 12v to the pump terminals or at least to the relay? If the ECU is cutting the supply off for some reason, bridging the 12v supply should send 12v to the pump all the time...and safer than rigging a 12v rail directly to the pump. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 22nd, 2007, 12:28pm I would now be working along the lines of bypassing the fuel tank altogether if you can. I still suspect a blockage, and the tank itself must now seem highly suspect. Going back to one of my previous posts on this, IF someone has deliberately put sugar in the tank, (and believe me people DO do it), then it would explain the whole problem. Petrol will not seep through sugar. It forms a very effective blockage, and produces exactly the problems that you are experiencing. I obviously hope this isn't the case, but I think you are now looking at something out of the ordinary here and I think the tank is going to have to come off ;) PS. How's business going Stuart? Hope it's taken off well for you. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Neil W on May 22nd, 2007, 4:15pm Hi, My money is on the in-line fuel filter which, on the Cosworth, is just forward of the fuel tank on the nearside adjacent to the rear wheel drive. I bet it hasn't been replaced in years; mine hadn't and was full of muck. Easy to replace as it clips onto the fuel line. Yippee!! Full member at last; taken 2 years :P. Cheers, Neil W. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by mike on May 22nd, 2007, 7:24pm Maybe a little far flung but easy to check: As Alastair pointed out to me there is a third wire (Black/Red) which connects pin 8 of the ECU to the inertia switch (see 29-07-011 in http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/sierra/engcntrl23m.pdf).This wire is normally unconnected but if the switch trips it gets grounded via the fuel pump motor winding: the ECU is therefore informed that a collision has occurred. I don't know for sure what it does then, but I should think it would kill the ignition so the engine does'nt keep running on residual fuel rail pressure. Now suppose this Black/Red wire gets (intermittently) grounded either in the loom or inside the (already suspect) inertia switch...This would tally with the engine dying and the exhaust smelling of petrol. With the above in mind I would: 1) disconnect the ECU and the inertia switch multiplug 2) test between the Black/Red wire and ground with an ohmeter If less than "infinite" resistance, game over. Else: 3) connect a strap on the multiplug between the two violet/orange wires (leaving the switch out), reconnect ECU and test. My money is still on the d..d red button! Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 22nd, 2007, 7:36pm [] With all they have tried, the " ****" Red Button is a prime suspect ;D Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on May 22nd, 2007, 7:46pm Thanks Mike Just an update. Further to Highlander's post last night ( Stuart your mobile is switched off) Tonight at 7.30 the car started first turn and ran for 11 minutes (moved out and thankfully back into the drive) and then slowly died and would not restart. During the 11 minutes it either sat rock steady at 850rpm or would rev through the whole range up to and briefly 5000 revs (smoothly). No doubt having sat it would do the same tomorrow. ??????? ALastair |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Snoopy on May 22nd, 2007, 7:48pm Does sound as though something is gettin HOT electrically and then breaking down.. Are you sure its NOT the relays? But I am sure ther eis some one who will give a definative answer! |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 22nd, 2007, 7:54pm Mike, that connects to pin 8 of the CCM not the ECU. That's done to release the central locking I believe, not to kill the engine...engine would die within a second or so if there was no pressure. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 22nd, 2007, 8:13pm It's certainly going to be very interesting to see the 'culprit' for this one. I know when my wife's Ignition Amplifier went on her MR2 last year, it took 7 garages (including 2 Main Dealers with all the diagnostic gear), myself, two auto electricians and several very helpful MR2 owners from the MR2 forum/MR2 owners club, 7 weeks to discover the cause, by which time we were all almost tearing our hair out. The silly thing is, it was exactly the same problem. Running for 2 to 3 seconds, and then.....Zilch! >:( Car's..........Don't we just love 'em!! ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by mike on May 22nd, 2007, 8:44pm Right you are Bruce! There go my ramblings down the drain... I guess there'll be crow on the dinner menu tonight :( Cheers, Mike |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 22nd, 2007, 9:31pm It seems to start after sitting overnight or when its not been tried for a while. The relays all click fine and have been swapped with known working replacements It definitely sounds like fuel startvation when it cuts out.. perfect idle..slight cough.. uneven running then dies.. after 11 minutes today and roughly the same last night I sounds like the fuel is slowly being restricted until the engine stops then it will not restart.. I think we'll have another look at the fuel system, filter etc possibly even connecting an external tank/pump as a fuel supply. I dont have access to a (working) 2.3 (sorry Alastair) :) so could someone with a 2.3 possibly disconnect their fuel line beside the manifold and see if the fuel pumps continuously when the ignition is on? This one pumps for a split second then stops. We did try releasing the fuel filler cap incase the vaccum was building up and restricting the flow but it made no difference Also, remember the fuel pump clicking every 30 seconds or so when the ignition is on? does this suggest a leak/pressure loss in the system somewhere maybe? like its trying to top it up? any more ideas?? ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 22nd, 2007, 9:37pm Stuart, I know I keep saying this but are you certain you've got an uninterrupted 12v going to the pump? Fuel blockage sounds plausible, it was my first guess; but would the engine run ok initially and rev so smoothly if there was a blockage? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 22nd, 2007, 9:52pm we tried a direct 12v to the pump from another battery and it didnt start either. the pump was running ok P.s. Spanner, the business is going great thanks, very busy, booked solid for the next three weeks :) p.p.s. the tanks already been off! ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 22nd, 2007, 10:04pm Another long shot but have you tried another FPR? Can you measure the pressure at the rail? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 22nd, 2007, 10:08pm I've just removed one today to try it in Alastairs, not able to test the pressure no |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on May 23rd, 2007, 12:16am on 05/22/07 at 21:31:39, Highlander wrote:
I'll check it tomorrow Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 23rd, 2007, 12:23am ty ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on May 23rd, 2007, 12:26am Just realised the time, should read I'll check it today ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by jonnycab on May 23rd, 2007, 2:08am Have you read this from the G&S site..... http://www.granada-and-scorpio-online.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14338 |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 23rd, 2007, 8:02am lol at least he admitted it ;) No this one definitely has fuel (we've had the tank off and struggled to get it back on due to the weight) ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 23rd, 2007, 8:56am Stuart, I hadn't realised you had tried a permanent supply to run the pump all the time. They definitely will cut out if they sense excess pressure, as the pump has it's own overload protection. In that case I have to concur with Spanners, sounds like a blockage. What I would now do is make up a simple bit of test kit.....A gallon can of fuel with a spare pump in it, on a permanent 12 volt supply and pipe it directly on to the rail, then see how / if it runs. If it runs ok, then go to the filter with can / pump and stick fuel in here, and so on, working your way back..... ;) AHBS are you sure the filter is clear? Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on May 23rd, 2007, 11:20am Stuart Tried as you asked fuel line disconnected (no pressure) pump runs for 1 second. Approx 8 on/offs to fill a 450g marmalade jar. Just to add confusion, tried disabling PATS by wrapping the key in foil. If I did as above I got the same result, BUT if I tried to start it with PATS disabled, from then on it would only pump momentarily about a teaspoon of petrol with each on/off. Once the foil removed all OK. Tried it several times with the same result i.e. barely any petrol after trying to start with PATS disabled. Dave One of those things you stir your tea with as you can't say teaspoon ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on May 23rd, 2007, 7:06pm You probably won't believe this (Stuart will having done all the work so far) but the car started first turn again tonight (6.30 - having sat for near enough 24 hours and ran perfectly for 12 minutes. During this time it drove out and back into the drive, again would rev through the whole range or sit rock steady at 850 revs. temp gauge at normal all switches, lights, CD etc. working perfectly. Then hesitated a couple of times and died. last night 11 mins tonight 12 mins. What little hair is left is fastly disappearing. Alastair |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 23rd, 2007, 7:21pm Guys, the fact that it runs so well until it dies, I'd find it hard to believe there was a blockage there - surely just revving it would kill the engine long before it died at idle? Now Tompion says it'll only put out a tea$p00n (;)) of fuel if the PATS was playing up, it ties in with what Stuart said about the coke bottle top. Perhaps it's something wrong in the PATS system, the immobiliser is getting tripped somehow? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on May 23rd, 2007, 7:29pm Hi Tiberius Is it possible to bypass / disconnect the PATS box and run the car or does disconnecting it cause the immobiliser to shut everything down Alastair |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 23rd, 2007, 7:43pm Alastair, I have no idea mate - Stuart knows far more than I, if there's a way I'm sure he'll know ;D But it is sounding like some kind of PATS electrical issue to me, if the pump runs ok and it puts enough fuel through until the moment the car coughs and dies I don't see how it could be a blockage in the system, revving the engine up to 5k would put far more strain on the system than letting it idle, so it would surely splutter and die when revved? I'll keep thinking, this has got me very curious ::) Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 23rd, 2007, 8:12pm Alasdair, If you can get a pats box from a good car, to test yours simply tape the key that goes with the pats box to the box and plug it in, then see if the problem still exists. ;) Like Bruce, this ones got me very curious ??? ??? ??? Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 23rd, 2007, 9:32pm What a nightmare for you Alistair!! I think we are ALL very curious about this. I personally STILL think that it's a blockage. A fuel line with an obstruction in it, or a rubber fuel hose that has collapsed internally or a component that's completely gunged up. I've had hoses and pipes like this before. To all intents and purposes they look perfectly OK, but I think, deep in your pipework there IS something which has caused an almost total blockage, and which has now moved further up the system. Time will tell. Really rooting for you anyway. I'm sure we all are. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 24th, 2007, 12:24am 1. The car starts perfectly when left overnight or at least for a good few hours. 2. Once it starts the car runs perfectly for almost exactly the same length of time before it dies and cannot be restarted. Theres a clue there but I cant see it yet. I cant see it being the PATS due to the above two symptoms. I'm still thinking along the lines of either a pressure build up (or loss) in the fuel system which slowly gets worse over this 10-12 minute period that the engine runs. OR as Dave said earlier something electrical overheating until it fails/jams and wont work until it cools down looks like the pump in a bucket then :) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by jonnycab on May 24th, 2007, 3:30am Points 1 & 2 still point towards the fpr, but you said you replaced it :-/....unless the replacment is faulty as well ? Not sure if you remember, but in one of my posts last year, I mentioned that a brand new fpr I bought from FMD was infact faulty ::) After fitting it, the Scorp had trouble starting when hot....maybe this was the beginning of a total fuel shut off...... It wasn't on the car long enough to get any worse & FMD refunded my money....eventually :) I wonder what the rate of flow, from the fpr back to the tank is & can it be measured to see if it becomes less over the 10 or 12 minutes that car runs for ? Also...have you tried pulling the fpr vacuum pipe from the throttle & plugging it, to see if it makes a difference ? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by jonnycab on May 24th, 2007, 3:40am Just another wild stab in the dark.... ;) Stuart....You wrote...."perfect idle, then slight cough, uneven running, then dies".... Faulty IACV ? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 24th, 2007, 7:59am Just as a matter of curiosity. Have you tried a Brand New Fuel Relay? I'm not going to go into the nightmares we had some years ago with another vehicle, but these things can be a total nightmare if you've got an intermittantly failing one. Only a thought. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 24th, 2007, 8:10am Relay has been changed for another second hand one which worked on another car but car does the same with either relay. FPR has not been changed yet but I have a good one to try Jonny, FMD fitted a brand new idle control valve |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on May 24th, 2007, 9:35am on 05/23/07 at 02:08:41, jonnycab wrote:
In that thread it says the AA man "Checked everything I had thought of before checking the amps the fuel pump was drawing." reading here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_to_central/automotive/1272391.html?page=1 it mentions measuring the draw to test the fuel pressure. If I get a chance I'll check the reading on mine (think my meter goes high enough) On a cautionary note, if you’re testing the pump out of the tank, I’ve read that they can spark internally but doesn’t matter when submerged and that they are cooled by the petrol. – could be exiting to say the least. Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 24th, 2007, 12:42pm Hi Stuart, Just reading back over again, have you definitely bypassed or replaced the fuel filter. An almost totally blocked filter will, when left overnight, drop some particles out then flow adequately for a short time..... This is why some U/S auto boxes will drive for a few minutes from cold, then as all the debris plugs the filter up it loses drive again...... leave it a while it will drive again for a while, the time periods gradually getting shorter and shorter. Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on May 24th, 2007, 1:07pm A power cut this morning dictated I had some free time. I removed the fuel pump relay & put an ammeter across pins 1 & 3: No pressure 2.86Amps Normal 4.08Amps Return blocked 5.6Amps I have a non standard FPR although it should be at normal pressure. The no pressure reading was pumping into a fuel can, it delivered 5litre’s in 2min 50 seconds. Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 24th, 2007, 1:31pm It's a blockage. Absolutely convinced of it. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 24th, 2007, 6:23pm I thought it was sugar?? ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 24th, 2007, 6:34pm Hi Stuart, Right I've been thinking....... Oh dear }{...... ;) I realise you are probably doing this as and when you get spare time and on someone else's drive with probably minimal equipment........so lets get down to basics and start with some easy tests. Run the engine for 11 - 12 minutes until it dies and wont start again. Then with a simple link wire, bridge pins 1 and 3 of the Fuel Pump Relay turn on the Ignition and see:- a) is the pump running? If no then run a 12v supply to it and when you get the pump running see if it will start ;) b) will it start ? If no then undo the main fuel pipe at the rail and stick it in a can, then switch on the ignition with bridge in place and see if the running pump produces fuel. If no, go back to the fuel filter and disconnect the inlet to filter pipe and see if you have fuel with pump running. These couple of simple checks will pinpoint exactly where the problem lies, with minimal equipment. If I've confused you and you want me to talk it through with you while you're with the car give me a ring, have pm'd you my number. I'd come and give you a hand, but I haven't moved up yet LOL ;D Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 24th, 2007, 7:26pm LOL Dave, I remember someone else saying to bridge the relay and make sure there was 12v at the pump ::) You could also plug a 12v LED into one of the injector sockets to check that they're pulsing, if the PATS has cut in, they won't pulse I believe. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 24th, 2007, 8:20pm Hi Bruce, :D Reading back over the thread he has already put 12v on the pump and it still wouldn't start, so I suggest going straight for option b)..... the disconnect fuel line and see what the delivery is like with a permanant running pump ;D This must be done immediately after the 12 minute run and die though, to see whether it is in fact fuel starved. Hope you're with me here but I'm just trying to get them in the right ball park with a minimum of tools and diagnostic kit........ ::) Me personally, by now I'd have had the scanner and a fuel pressure gauge connected plus a few test LED's on the pump circuit, injectors and LT ignition all at the same time then run it until it died to see what happened.......... But as I said, he's doing it in precious spare time and probably without full workshop facilities on hand hence the back to basics approach ;D Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 24th, 2007, 11:47pm Yep thats it ;D Alastair left me a message tonight saying the car once again started and was running perfectly at the time (6 mins) but i havent got back to him to hear how it went. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by jonnycab on May 25th, 2007, 12:53am Stuart...defo try the good fpr.... :) The old one may have gunge in it or the diaphragm may be sticking ;) Found this if it's any help... http://www.picotech.com/auto/tutorials/emissions-components-actuators.html |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 25th, 2007, 9:39am Quote:
I still haven't discounted this Stuart. EVIL stuff. Years ago working for a guy who had a Triumph Spitfire, and he had his tank 'doctored' by someone with a grudge against him and his wife. Exactly these symptoms. Annoyingly the last thing I thought to check was the (under bonnet and easy to get at), fuel filter, which turned out to be blocked virtually solid with the stuff. Petrol and sugar for some reason form the most impenetrable substance going. You'd think that the fuel would just filter through it, but it doesn't. It blocks it up good and proper. If some kid/hoodie has done it for a laugh, it really wouldn't surprise me. And YES I still think it's a fuel line blockage!! What and Where SORT of blockage is still unknown, but that's what my money's on ;D ;D Glad business is going good for you. :) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on May 29th, 2007, 8:38pm Just in case you thought it had all gone quiet - a quick update Due to pressure of work on both sides Stuart and I have not managed to look at the car forn a week. However we are scheduled for this Friday so fingers crossed The situation is the car starts first time and runs for: - Last Tuesday 11mins Wednesday 12 mins Thursday 12 mins Tonight 14 mins As reported before while the car is running it will either sit steady at 850rpm or rev freely up and down the full range - then hesitates and dies. when trying to restart immediately afterwards the speedo and rev gauges go round the dials although the battery is sound - is this a clue ? On Friday we intend to change the fuel filters, FPR and a try a remote fuel supply with different pump. any other thoughts before Friday would be much appreciated and thanks for all your interest so far. Alastair |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by tintin on May 29th, 2007, 9:44pm Stuart, Did you try a new ecu in it? I remember when my ecu was broken, it wouldnt start / almost start, and the dials were swinging round even though it wasnt starting. Might be worth a shot.....if you still have a spare one ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Scorpius on May 29th, 2007, 10:30pm This may be a totally unrelated idea, but after i stripped, cleaned and rebuilt the main fusebox on my Granada Scorpio, a couple of years ago, i found that i had no fuel pump running. I knew the pump was OK and that it could only be due to something i had done and i started to research the curcuits that operate the pump and the relay that allows it to run in the main fusebox. I discoverd that the positive pin on the fuel pump relay was not contacting when it plugged into the fusebox, but all other pins were OK. I found out where the positive track lead from (withing the fusebox) and bypassed the track with a wire and this fixed the problem. Are you sure that the fuel pump relay is making perminant connection inside your fusebox and not breaking after a certain time??? Ian |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 30th, 2007, 4:00pm Guys, We're running backwards here ;) He's tried an ecu and a separate 12v supply to the pump so that tends to discount fuseboxes, relays, ecu, maybe, possibly, etc etc. The clue here is that the longer it stands the longer it runs when re- started, i.e. the 14 minute one! My money is on the fuel filter now. ;) Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on May 30th, 2007, 6:39pm Well, my money's still on some kind of electrical gremlin or PATS issue, but I bow to your knowledge Dave ;D ;) Anyone want to place bets? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on May 30th, 2007, 6:51pm Knowledge nah....Educated Guess }{ 10 pints of Hurlimann and a packet of Hamlet LOL }{ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on May 30th, 2007, 7:29pm Fuel pipe collapsed internally causing a blockage. Outwardly appears quite normal, but internally, blocked almost solid. It's a blockage. Thought we'd been there though? Dunno about Bets. I reckon Dynarod is next!! :o :o |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on May 30th, 2007, 9:18pm Just looked back through the posts: on 05/22/07 at 21:31:39, Highlander wrote:
Just tried this, but my pump doesn’t appear to do it, but I can hear the fan that draws air through the climate control panel pulse every 30 seconds, are you sure it’s not that you can hear? (It runs even when the rotary dial is set to off). on 05/29/07 at 20:38:00, Alastair wrote:
If this is happening ONLY after the engine dies it does seem to point to an electrical problem. If you have an OBD lead capable of reading ABS, try reading the PATS module for a fault code – I find it’s slow to respond and you may have to try a few times. If you just have the blue lead try the enhanced PCM page. Using an un-programmed key I got a P1260 TD,VI (theft detected vehicle immobilised). Make sure you are connected before going to the enhanced page otherwise you get no codes & no warning that you aren’t connected. Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on May 30th, 2007, 9:36pm Its definitely the fuel pump clicking every 30 secs not the fan and the battery I think is sitting fairly low, it only gets 12mins charging at a time every time it starts and thats at idle. we've had to jump start it a couple of times. Friday morning is the big test. we're changing the filter, going to bypass the entire fuel line with a different pump and an external 12v supply. I have a complete fuel line spare in case we need to replace it. Stuart |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 1st, 2007, 4:11pm Latest update ;D Replaced the Fuel pressure regulator We have ruled out the fuel system. Fuel is getting through ok, injectors were removed and viewed working. We are also getting a good regular spark. Car ran for 24 mins today, 22 yesterday. it runs faultlessly then coughs and dies and will not restart until hours later. Once the car has cut out, if the ignition is left on the injectors will release fuel every 10 or 20 seconds, all injectors operate at the same time?? I assume this shouldnt happen?? We are of the opinion that something is throwing the injector timing out after a certain time or after certain running conditions are met?? Definitely the electronic side though, the mechanics are working fine. Ideas as always welcome ;D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 1st, 2007, 9:05pm Camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor replaced - no difference |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave on Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:01am Whats the wiring like around the engine bay ??? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 2nd, 2007, 9:57am Had a couple of minor repairs on the fuel cut off loom where it had been physically damaged, not rotten but its in good condition as is the rest of the wiring in the car. We did have to replace the plug to the EDIS unit as the wiring was weak and had broken where it entered the plug. BUT the car will fire every day without exception and run perfectly for 12 - 24 minutes before dying and not restarting |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on Jun 2nd, 2007, 11:21am Other than monitoring the voltages to various parts I'm stumped. Always sounded like an electrical gremlin to me, sounded to easy for it to be a blocked filter...life is never that simple. I know how doolally the gremlins can be on old electrical gear, could be anything from a plug which is getting heated by the engine and losing contact to a damaged loom somewhere either getting shorted or losing contact with the heat. Are the injectors still pulsing when it dies? Have you tried another PATS module? Still sounds like something with the anti theft/immobiliser to me, just a feeling I get about it :-/ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 2nd, 2007, 11:26am not tried a PATS module no, there are never any codes flashing, the engine does try and start after it cuts out, its still getting fuel and a spark but the injector timing seems to be wrong?? Wouldnt a PATS fault prevent this happening? The injectors shouldnt operate if the ignition is only turned onto position 2 though should they |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by jonnycab on Jun 2nd, 2007, 5:54pm Another wild stab in the dark ;).... ....Have you tried replacing R19 (engine management).....gotta be worth ruling that out :) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 2nd, 2007, 7:00pm Yep, one of the first things we tried. Heres what we've done and ruled out so far. Fuelling sytem is fine, fuel rail removed and injectors viewed working. The engine is getting a good spark, no problem there even when hot replaced EDIS multiplug due to poor connections inside it. (car would not start at all prior to this) EDIS unit replaced IACV replaced Camshaft sensor replaced Crankshaft sensor replaced ECU replaced Fuel pressure regulator replaced Fuel cut off loom all checked ok Wiring looms all look in good condition OBD scan - no codes, everything looking normal Fuses all ok Relay 17 and 19 replaced PATS working ok The cars starts and runs perfectly for 20 mins, will rev freely and idle rock solid around the 850-870 mark then cuts out and wont restart despite having fuel and a spark! It will cough as if its trying to start but it wont fire unless its left overnight Can smell petrol from the exhaust when trying to restart Basically it starts, runs perfect, warms up, cuts out and wont start till the next day |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Neil W on Jun 2nd, 2007, 7:34pm I am no motor vehicle diagnostics expert or even good at maintaining cars, but sitting back and reading the unfolding saga it seems to me that the problem is associated with either time or heat or both. OK, that much is obvious ;D. And from your description of how the engine stops, that seems to suggest fuel starvation rather than an electrical problem. We know that the fuel pump supplies more fuel than the car needs (except perhaps at continuous high revs) with the surplus being returned to the tank. So, could the amount being supplied under load (thin pipes and a filter) be not quite sufficient, so that the engine is drawing on slightly more fuel than supplied until eventually there is not enough to run the engine? That would suggest a fuel pump diaphram problem which leaks under load, or fuel filter perhaps, or fuel pipe problem. Could the main fuel supply pipe to the rail be partially blocked and as it heats up it causes the pipe to block completely? During all your testing, was the bonnet shut during engine running periods? If it was, then could a build up of heat in the engine bay be causing something to change? I am thinking here about coil packs and HT leads, as everything else seems to have been considered. Could the battery be not getting charged up and eventually failing to supply sufficient power for the coils etc? Batteries do recover somewhat when left for some time. Just some thoughts; apologies if you have considered all these ideas before :-[. Neil W. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on Jun 2nd, 2007, 8:02pm Neil, I think Stuart has pretty much eliminated the fuel system. Anyway, if there was a blockage gradually restricting the supply the engine would cough and splutter quite badly, if wouldn't just hesitate and die. I'd bet my life on it being a switch or connector somewhere but I'm stumped if I can think where :-/ Another stab in the dark but what about switch/contact cleaner on every conector you can find? :-/ I know we've been here but you're certain the pump is still getting constant voltage feed AFTER it stalls and won't restart? Could indicate a sensor problem if the ECU is cutting feed to the pump relay. Scan? All I can think now is work backwards and see where that leads, you know the injectors are firing, it's got a spark |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on Jun 5th, 2007, 9:51pm Where do I send the Hurlimans and Hamlets LOL ;D Have you looked at the plug on the engine temp sender, (the fuel injection one), these have been known to go high resistance when they warm up and give the engine cold start fuelling hence it will only start again when the overfuel situation has evaporated and it is cold again. Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 5th, 2007, 10:42pm Not tried that Dave, makes sense. Alistair is going to get his ECU checked Would a cracked inlet manifold once warm allow enough air in to stop the engine and not let it restart?? Also wondered about the gearbox, would it be possible for a wiring fault or problem with the box (its an auto) to give these symptoms? It cuts out whether the car is idling or driving once warm. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by cossie_al on Jun 5th, 2007, 11:00pm on 06/05/07 at 22:42:37, Highlander wrote:
Stuart, I once had this on a bike okay the inlets were four seperate rubber jobs but the bike started fine when cold but would not start when warm unless it was bump started. also it ran like a bag of spanners once warmed trough. The splits in the rubbers were tiny but when replaced the fault was gone. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 5th, 2007, 11:35pm Yep, i'm not too familiar with the 2.3 engine but I know it suffers from cracks in the plastic inlet manifold. I'll start another thread and find out what the symptoms of this are. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Scorpius on Jun 5th, 2007, 11:48pm I went through 3 Inlet manifolds on my 2.3 due to cracks. However, there were ALL in the water side. and due to head gasket blown. In the end, they sprayed so much hot water and steam on the TPS that it gave out. Ian |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 5th, 2007, 11:53pm What happened when your TPS failed? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on Jun 6th, 2007, 12:56am on 06/01/07 at 16:11:09, Highlander wrote:
With this happening I wouldn't have thought a manifold leak likely to be the problem. I would have thought the ECU, but as you've tried another & the same happened - it seems unlikely you'd have 2 units with the same unusual fault. I wondered about an earthing fault, maybe run a separate earth to the ECU and/or a direct feed. Have you inspected the join to the live wires for the injectors? in the black trunking over the injectors as they are only stamped together (thinking along the lines of the injectors somehow ending up in series). Have you pulled the wires out of the split conduit from the big plug on the wing to the injectors - some of mine were split lengthways. It was only when I got the fuel shut off loom off I realised just how bad it was. Check where the TPS wires come out of there conduit – under the tape. Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 6th, 2007, 9:05am We've thoroughly checked the entire fuel cut off loom. A couple of small repairs done on it but its in very good condition. We have a spark and fuel, i was thinking along the lines of air now. If the manifold has a crack, i assume it would be ok initially until it heats up, expands and draws air?? If the air inlet pipe is removed from the throttle body while the engine is running it stalls the engine which is exactly the symptom we have. And more places we can look for air leaks? |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on Jun 6th, 2007, 9:16am I would have thought you'd hear a leak bad enough to do this - assuming you're saying you can't save it by blipping the throttle. Removing the inlet pipe would give false IAT & MAF readings, haven't tried it - can if you want. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Scorpius on Jun 6th, 2007, 9:38am Highlander. It would suddenly die. It would start again, but got harder and harder to start when it did die, and in the end, no start at all. Ian |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Frank on Jun 6th, 2007, 10:09am Blocked exhaust maybe? I once had a potato jammed up my pipe causing these symptoms. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on Jun 6th, 2007, 11:04am A few more stabs in the dark: If you say the spark is ok, what about the idle air valve? Although, if that was suddenly closing for some reason, keeping the throttle open a bit would keep the engine running :-/ Cracked manifold on the air side would surely give the same symptoms as a vacuum leak as the inlet is under negative pressure? I'm thinking high, rough idle, maybe lean running until the o2 sensors pick up on it? Don't see how a leak could kill it, I've had the mother of vacuum leaks more than once ;D Have you scanned it? Might be a fault code lurking somewhere and you could really do with some live data from the ECU now, might solve this entire thing for you. Not sure if you've been here but exhaust restriction as Frank mentions? Maybe a bad cat causing back pressure and slowly killing the engine? Surely there'd be more warning of it dying though? Not sure if this would work but how about piggybacking some 12v LEDs into each injector plug and each coilpack plug, would show the pulsed of each and you might be able to see if the timing of either was going out of phase when the prob occured? These are just wild guesses now, more like thinking aloud so apologies if they don't make any sense. But there may be something there that may help :). Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 6th, 2007, 3:35pm Has the Fuel Injector Relay SOCKET itself been checked underneath for a corroded or poor connection? I know you've also changed the relay, but it would seem to be a fuel/electrical based cutout problem now that fuel flow has been eliminated. Is the wiring to the socket sound. May be a fusebox problem connected to the relay. Running out of ideas now. A REALLY strange one this. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 6th, 2007, 4:26pm Definitley not a fuel delivery problem |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on Jun 6th, 2007, 8:57pm [] I've had engines with bad air leaks and they still run and start albeit rough, doubt it's ecu as I doubt you would be unlucky enuf to have 2 with exactly the same fault...... I am now thinking along the lines of an overfuelling issue, really need some diagnostic data now. ;) Fuel Pressure gauge on it me thinks, and look at fuel trims when it's running. Did you check the temp sensor ? Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave on Jun 6th, 2007, 10:07pm Could you try a known good top notch battery? (If you haven't already). |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 6th, 2007, 10:13pm I've been talking to a very old friend of mine this evening about this. We used to build engines together, and it was good to pool ideas, so bear with a couple of oldies!! :D Although I've suggested it before, we are both of the opinion that 3 things are still worth another look. Defective Crankshaft sensor. Gets hot, and engine fails. Cools and is temporarily OK again so engine re-starts. On some cars there is an Ignition Amplifier. When these fail or begin to fail, they will produce exactly the known symptoms. Are you absolutely sure that there isn't an Ignition Amplifier (or similar component that performs this function), on your car? Has one been fitted, perhaps, as an aftermarket extra before you bought the car? I know this is going over old ground, but we think you need to take another look at the actual spark delivery, and possible failure due to an amplifier/spark voltage delivery- intermittant fault. Only other thing that struck us is this: You say>>>>>>>>>>> Quote:
Surely this suggests that there has been a complete/partial/sudden disconnection of the cars power source? Battery may well be sound, but have you checked the Battery and ALL Earth cables? Is one hanging by a thread? Just touching, but fails to touch (maybe with vibration), for a split second, cutting the power? Possibly damaged/corroded/loose or not totally secure and so causing an intermittant power supply fault. We've seen some horrendous earth cables (or what's been left of them) in our time. Also some where the cables were held on by one single remaining strand of the braid. Yes really, just one very thin wire. Barely making contact at all, and certainly not giving any electrical connection worth talking about. Could well cause an almost invisible problem. Give them all a good yank to see that they are sound. If the battery cables are as old as the car, they could well be shot. Likewise any smaller earth cables attached to other components. Might also be worth checking any earth straps between engine and gearbox components. Us old Zimmermen are still rooting for you. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on Jun 6th, 2007, 11:01pm EDIS module? On the diagram the coils take a 12v from the ignition bus, neutral switched through the module. Not something I've ever touched but perhaps it's possible it could be putting the timing of the packs out? :-/ Still sounds like a straight forward fuel/ignition cut if it dies so smoothly, even if you pull a fuel pump relat it stumbles for a second or two before it dies. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 6th, 2007, 11:19pm Just quickly Bruce, got to get some sleep now. Quote:
I wonder, is it possible to wrongly connect the EDIS unit? I don't know, but just reading this, made me wonder? Just a wild thought. ;) THIS might help. HERE (http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html) It's certainly a brain-teaser this one. Back tomorrow! ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by TiberiuS on Jun 6th, 2007, 11:28pm So much has been said now, forgot he's changed it :( All depends if the coils are still firing when it stalls, doubt it's possible for the module to suddenly make them fire out of phase, let alone two of them :-/ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 6th, 2007, 11:44pm The EDIS multiplug was changed, there are 11 wires to it, the were cut and reconnected one at a time to avoid any mistake. All battery wiring and engine bay wiring is in exceptional condition compared to a lot of Scorpios I have seen, this car has been well looked after in the past, not the rusty oily engine bay you see on a lot of them. Not been back to have another play yet but keen on the temperature sender idea. when the car cuts out both fuel and spark are still present. The car runs almost the exact amount of time each time. 22ish minutes i think at the last count. Alister has a couple of known working coil packs he's going to try (FMD say they fitted new ones a couple of weeks ago) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 7th, 2007, 7:41am Loch Ness Monster in the fuel lines is giving "Humpy Running". ;D Sorry Stuart!! This thing must be getting you both to the point of insanity. Is the EDIS unit EXACTLY the same type as the original for the car? It may not be programmed in the same way. Pull those power cables anyway. My own car is also in exceptional condition, and the engine bay is an engineers dream, but those cables are still probably as old as the car and just MAY not be as sound as they look at first glance. One thing I'm constantly reminded of when working with cars is to never discount anything. Even 'brand new' or replacement parts can be defective, and parts that 'look OK' are often not Ok. ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave2302 on Jun 7th, 2007, 11:31am Quote:
[] Couldn't agree more actually. ;) If we rebuild an auto trans and it gives a problem afterwards we diagnose it exactly the same as we would if we had not touched the car !!! ;D As your still getting spark and fuel after engine cut out I doubt it will be ECU, Crank/Cam sensor or EDIS related. AFAIK EDIS only switches the coil packs and determine the ignition advance, we have actually used different ones on different engines in the past to get more advance when hi performance tuning, so they can be interchanged. ;) I'm still thinking overfuelling issue, when your next working on it, as soon as it cuts out, kill the ignition, wait 5 mins to allow excess fuel to evaporate, then try full throttle flooded engine start procedure to see if it fires up ;) Obviously if you can get a scanner with "live data" this will show you from the drivers seat what the injection times, temp sensor and fuel trims are doing. A cheap CO meter up the exhaust will also pinpoint fuelling issues as will a fuel pressure gauge to check the FPR function, if you can get hold of this kit it will speed up the diagnosis immensly. Regards Dave. P.S. We'll be coming up to Scotland in a couple of months, so if you haven't sorted it by then I'll bring some test kit and Hurlimanns / Hamlets LOL }{ }{ }{ |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on Jun 10th, 2007, 12:05pm Quick update - ( I haven't managed to talk to Stuart yet) Re the coil packs - supposedly new 6 weeks ago during all the checks we have done over the last several weeks we had noticed the on one coil pack the multi pin connection ( on the pack itself ) could move - not necessarily loose inside but moveable whereas the other pack connector was tight. Any way I changed the coil pack, rechecked the adjacent wiring and astarted the car. The record to date for running had been 22 mins. today it was still running after 555 minurtes and showin no signs of stopping. I shut it down, had a coffee,and 15 mins later restarted the car. Started ok and ran for three minutes and then hesitated, hunted briefly and then died. Would restart immediately and if the revs were held at 2000 then would run for 30 secs or so. After 15 mins. tried Dave's suggestion of a full throttle start but no go, it did however start with no throttle and run for two mins, hunting a little and then died again. Regarding Temperature sensors - while the car was running for the 55 mins I was continually monitoring the outside air temperature readings: - the left hand (trip control reading) moved during the 55 minutes from 59 to 62 whereas the right hand (self test computer) went from 60 to 81. I don't know if this means anything about making the car cut out but it was mentioned in a previous response. Back tothe drawing board but its now running longer when it does - if you see what I mean Alastair |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Alastair on Jun 27th, 2007, 9:37pm Hi Guys I'm not sure which category to place this post in, so here goes: - News: - my car (touch wood) appears to be sorted Problems: - started by me on 24/04/07 "Idle Control Valve" started by Highlander on 19/05/07 " Fuel pump" The response to the problem (8 pages) was staggering and I thank you all. The problem was basically the EDIS unit but plus a wiring fault from the EDIS unit to the ECU. This meant that at times the voltage to the pump was suddenly dropped from 12 volts to less than 6 volts which stopped it dead. (see under OBD) G/N Advice There are thankfully an increase in " Newbie" members on this forum and the advice would be to listen to the responses which you get to your posts and try them all. The original problem, on my car, was diagnosed immediately by Highlander as being the EDIS unit. unfortunately the one we replaced it with may have been faulty and the wiring problem did not help matters. OBD: - I'm told the following has to happen to discover the problem I had (and forgive me because I have no idea what any of this means) you need: - Pin 1 EDIS to Pin 48 PCM (ECU) - black and white A four channel scope Channel 1 EDIS positive - Ignition feed Channel 2 EDIS ground Channel 3 PIP signal Channel 4 Crankshaft Sensor Conclusion : - Whew you say but don't be like that. I want to thank each and every one that responded and I want to especiallly thank Highlander without whose Knowledge, support and friendship the outcome may have been entirely different. Thank you Here endeth the tale Alastair |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by scorpio_man on Jun 27th, 2007, 9:43pm hi there well done in sticking with it. a lot of people would've sold up by now. |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 27th, 2007, 9:58pm Well done Alistair. And to you Stuart for all the help you've given him. A nightmare of a job, now over. Really pleased for you. :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 27th, 2007, 10:42pm That was one of the worst ones yet! ;D Right... who's next? ;) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Scorpius on Jun 27th, 2007, 10:58pm Well done to all. It proves that mega sagas can have endings, and indeed, happy endings at that. Ian |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Tompion on Jun 27th, 2007, 11:01pm Glad you got it sorted - hope your hair grows back. Dave |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Simmo on Jun 28th, 2007, 6:44am Congratulations to you both. ;). Well done Stuart :D |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Dave on Jun 28th, 2007, 11:03am Great news, well done 8) |
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Title: Re: Fuel pump / electrics Post by Highlander on Jun 29th, 2007, 11:43pm I know you're away to the States for a couple of weeks Alastair but in case you get onto a pc I have a wee update for you.. Your original EDIS unit which I now have just did an 850 mile round trip without a problem. I'd also like to test the spare one I left with you as it was tested and working on another car before we tried it one yours. I'm just not convinced the EDIS units were faulty (especially not both of them) I think it may just have been the wiring which may have shown up as an EDIS fault? |
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