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        General >> Problems >> at the end of my teather please help
        
(Message started by: mrgraves on Jun 10^th, 2007, 2:31pm)

Title: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 10^th, 2007, 2:31pm

been working on my scorpio for a month now and still cant get it to start ive had the AA out twice first guy was useless
but the second seemed that i really did want to help.

The problem is the engine cranks but will not fire there is no spark and the fuel pump seems to prime but then stops.

i have checked all the looms for damage and repaired where needed.
also the man from the AA pluged in the OBD and it read no error codes
??? ???
2.0l 8v 97 dohc

Please help if you can i really dont want to scrap my baby

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by solarpanel on Jun 10^th, 2007, 2:49pm

if the crank and cam sensors dont talk to each other it wont start,a friend had that problem when he fitted a volvo 1.7 turbo engine into a renault laguna.

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 10^th, 2007, 4:33pm

hi there

did you check/change anything from these replies?
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1179583758

i take it you found your key?

have you taken the battery out of the car and checked for the 'missing' wee wire? what about the coil packs? did you change them? have you made sure that the crank shaft sensor is connected? down next to the oil filter.

hth

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 10^th, 2007, 4:36pm

also check this out.

http://www.granada-and-scorpio-online.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69

not sure if the 8v is set up like a granada.

hth

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 10^th, 2007, 5:43pm

did not find the key i ended up paying 160 for a guy to come out to me and reprogram
a new master key

as for the coil packs the aa say they are fine and that the problem is occurring before
any kind of charge reaches them

i have checked all the wiring again and it all seems to be ok , how can i check if the crank and cam are talking to each other?

(o and i checked the bat all leads are connected) :)

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 10^th, 2007, 6:50pm

heya

whereabouts in birmingham are you? i could pop round have have a look with you?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by jonnycab on Jun 10^th, 2007, 8:06pm

Have you checked the fuel pump relay ?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 10^th, 2007, 10:11pm

the fuel pump does prime so i assume the relay is ok the main issue seems to be the lack of spark, is it the same relay or circuit?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 10^th, 2007, 10:13pm

on 06/10/07 at 18:50:33, Matt wrote:

heya

whereabouts in birmingham are you? i could pop round have have a look with you?

that would be great if you could im in moseley give me a shout on my personal email

philipgraves@hotmail.co.uk

cheers

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 10^th, 2007, 10:16pm

ah not very far at all, im in stechford

i cant really do weeknights, although i could do a wed as work sends me off to college then and i get out earlier, but if your really stuck i could pop round after work for an hour

let me know when your free :D

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 10^th, 2007, 10:25pm

ok great i will keep you posted weeknights are bad for me to so if ive had no luck
in the week any help on the weekend would be good

:) :)

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Scorpius on Jun 11^th, 2007, 12:07am

I would say that this is either the alarm or a faulty crank Angle Sensor.

Ian

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Jun 15^th, 2007, 9:40pm

Looking at TIS 009 electrics the fault is either in Connector C663 or the Capacitor C868 or in the wiring to them.

If interested and still unsolved mail me for pics/locations.

Ray

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 15^th, 2007, 10:01pm

hey any luck with the car yet?

im still ok to pop round if you are

Matt

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 15^th, 2007, 10:15pm

still no luck mate if you can pop round and give your opinion that would be fantastic

:)

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 15^th, 2007, 10:23pm

yeah no probs

i'll bring a few bits with me, even if its just to prove nothing is wrong with the bits you have (fule shut off switch, pump relay etc...) btw is it an auto or manual?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 15^th, 2007, 10:32pm

its the manual version, did you get my mobile number on email? if so call me tomorow
and let me know when is good for you im available all weekend

phil

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 15^th, 2007, 10:36pm

ok, and yeah i got your number :)

being a manual its eliminated one prob i was thinking of so thats a start lol

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 15^th, 2007, 11:01pm

though of another prob regarding the box, though its a very long shot,

as the wireing is pretty much the same in all models, would a manual car have the start inhibitor fitted, like the autos do? is R11 left empty or is it linked?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Scorpius on Jun 15^th, 2007, 11:05pm

If i remember correctly, R11 should have a link fitted.

Ian

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 16^th, 2007, 1:33pm

yes it has confused me at first as the book said it was for auto trans

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 17^th, 2007, 11:13am

its getting worse by the minute just been playing with it again, i've reconnected the battery after a charge and there is smoke coming from the n/s fuse box so that has me thinking maybe thats the issue in the first place

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 17^th, 2007, 12:01pm

sounds like water ingress, i'll pop over today

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 17^th, 2007, 12:07pm

ok cheers mate im in all day

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 17^th, 2007, 12:15pm

i'll pop round in the next 30mins, just havin some lunch hehe

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 17^th, 2007, 8:38pm

hhmmm

myself and matt have spent three hours going over my scorp today and still no luck
its really strange
i was told that because there are two coil packs on the 8v that it is almost impossible for them to go (does anyone know if this is true before i go out and buy a set)
or if anyone has some for sale please mail me

;)

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Highlander on Jun 17^th, 2007, 8:49pm

Never heard that one before but I'd be very surpised if both have gone at the same time.
Even with one not working you should still be able to start it although it will be very rough..
Sounds similar to the problem Alastair and I are having with his 2.3

PATS ok?
EDIS module below the coolant reservoir?
have you had it running since the new keys were programmed??

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 17^th, 2007, 9:05pm

yes its a very odd problem, the only 'apparent fault was a soaked aux fuse box which we stripped and cleaned/dried.

car cranks but does not fire as phill has stated, fule cut off sw, pump, relays etc all work as there is a fule supply right up to the pipe unions.

there is no error code being flashed up,

it seems as if there may be 2 options, crank and cam sensors, or there is a wireing problem as the AA bloke called out said there is no feed to the coil packs.

btw this problem happedned over night, car was used on a long trip one day, then wouldnt start the next....
very odd indeed

on a side note, believe it or not, the two of us work for the same company and didnt realise!!! what are the odds lol

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Cosray - The Hague - Holland on Jun 18^th, 2007, 8:34am

Do you have a voltmeter? Or even a simple 12v lightbulb on a cord? If so please measure
- coil voltage - should come on and off when cranking
- injectors - should be high and low when injecting
- capacitor front of engine (viz my earlier post)
To measue just carefully lightly scratch a wire, exposing copperstrands.
If any voltage is missing: drill down
HTH,
Ray

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Scorpius on Jun 18^th, 2007, 9:16am

Change the Crank Angle Sensor. I have had this with Granada Scorpios and a dead CAS will give this problem

Ian

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 18^th, 2007, 7:29pm

is that the one that sits the top of the engine block or the one by the oil filter (always get the two mixed up :))

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 18^th, 2007, 8:54pm

actually never mind just found one on ebay will just have to wait a couple of days for delivery

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Scorpius on Jun 18^th, 2007, 9:03pm

Its located near the oil filter or starter motor (depending whether manual or auto.

good luck

Ian

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:12pm

ah well was not the sensor then i've replaced and still no joy
??? ??? ???

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Scorpius on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:29pm

OH!!!! That's bad news.

Not sure what else to check at the mo

Ian

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by TiberiuS on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:32pm

Hi. Is there a crank and cam sensor? I'm not sure about the 8v. Did you have this issue before you had the new key made?

I'm thinking either that or maybe something in the PATS???

So you've got no fuel and no spark either?

It's gotta be something in the anti-theft system, surely??

ECU issue? Connectors ok?

Sorry, just stabs in the dark :(

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Scorpius on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:35pm

Good points Bruce.
Also, before looking into that, just disconnect the battery for 10 mins or so to let the ECU reset the mapping. Even with a replacement sensor, it may need to reset the map before being willing to start.

Another thought is the Throttle Position Sensor. Try to start it with the multi-plug to the TPS disconnected.

Ian

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 5:39pm

tried it with the tps disconnected and have reset the mapping by taking the bat of for a while still no luck ??? ive never known anything like it i am seriously considering calling it a day and scrapping not even two mechanics who have looked can figure it out :'(

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 5:48pm

is the pats unit the small back unit behind the glove box (next to the ecu)?

if thats it, i can take the one off my 12v er to try it

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 6:03pm

yes it is but im not sure it is as simple as plugging another one in or is it?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Matt on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 6:24pm

they are just a plug in unit... dunno if they need to be set up proper though???

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by GrahamT on Jun 26^th, 2007, 12:52am

Hi, unfortunately no, you can't just plug another PATS in, otherwise anyone with a spare PATS could drive off with your motor! It needs to be programmed correctly. Have you checked http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm to make sure the PATS is working correctly, is it flashing any fault code at you? Is it flashing at all?!!

What happened in the first place to make the car faulty? What have you checked/replaced so far?

Have you checked it with an OBD lead connected? The 8v is similar in it's diagnostics and sensors to the other 4 pots, only difference is the number of valves :-) Even the coil packs are electrically the same, it's just that on the 16 valvers the 2 coil packs are glued together in one big lump, so, as suggested, it's unlikely that both coil packs have failed. Unlikely that either one has failed catastrophically really. The EDIS module could be a likely candidate but I haven't had any trouble with one before and haven't bothered to investigate it's workings.

I would suggest the PATS is the first thing to check followed by OBD diags looking at each sensor in turn.

Good luck,
Graham

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Spannerdemon on Jun 26^th, 2007, 2:44pm

Have you looked at the ECU. It's under the glovebox, held in by a simple drop down tray. It's a five minute job to check it. Water can get into them, via the loom behind the battery.

Disconnect the plug, (10mm spanner) and check the pins for any sign of water damage. Failure of the ECU, or simple bad connections could well cause your problem. ;)

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by TiberiuS on Jun 26^th, 2007, 6:15pm

I still think this is some kind of either cam sensor or PATS issue, we still don't know whether you had this issue before you had the new key programmed???

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 26^th, 2007, 7:11pm

yeah the problem occurred before i lost my keys and had them programmed as for the pats the light stays on for a sec and then turns off once they key has been in for a few secs.
The AA checked for errors on the OBD and it came up blank so nothing is stored in memory

i will check for water dam as we did find ingress to the fusebox and it my of travelled further then.

also i have a mobile mechanic coming round on saturday who reckons he can diagnose for me (30quid for the pleasure which aint bad really)

will keep you guys posted thanks for the suggestions

:D

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 30^th, 2007, 2:27pm

some people are are pain ive waited all week for this guy to come take a look at the car he turned up this morn went hmmm said he had no idea and ask for 35 quid for the pleasure (to be told very promtly to sling his hook)

anybody know a good garage or mobile mechanic in birmingham?

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jun 30^th, 2007, 5:58pm

just spotted something else.. when the key is in the ignition the oil can light stays on
anybody know what this means (oil level appears to be fine)

thanks

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Kjetil S on Jun 30^th, 2007, 11:51pm

Low oil pressure (which is normal when the engine and oil pump isn't running)

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jul 1^st, 2007, 2:23am

ahh ok thanks just wanted to check ;D

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by TiberiuS on Jul 1^st, 2007, 2:39am

Loom/fusebox damage, that's all I can think of :-/

No spark and no fuel can only be so many things, take a look through Highlander/Alastair's thread. Sometimes the bigger the fault, the simpler the cure, sounds like a major electrical gremlin to me.

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 7:39pm

Ok i have finally decided to throw the gloves in and get rid of my beloved scorp its not
that i want to just a case of need to.
thanks to all who have taken the time to give advice and a special thanks to matt for spending a day trying to figure the problem out with me

will post in the sales section with details

:'(

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by Dave on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 8:00pm

Sorry to hear that, I have been reading the thread but haven't really anything to add. Except 1 possibilty - it may be worth changing the spark plugs if they are not recent replacements. I have heard of some cars, 2.0 Fords actually, that suddenly won't start for this reason ??? Odd but true.

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by mrgraves on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 8:36pm

thanks for the tip dave but unfortunately there is no charge from the coils to power the spark plugs the problem seems to occur before reaching them

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by sector-9 on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 8:50pm

The symptoms you describe do sound like a problem with the crank sensor - the fuel pump will run for a short while but if the ECU doesn't detect an attempt to start the engine it will shut it off. Also, without a valid input from the sensor the ECU will have no way of determining ignition timing so there'll be no sparks. Of course, there's not likely to be a fault code recorded either as it has no way of knowing that the engine should be running! If you've got access to an oscilloscope then try taking a reading of the output at the ECU end (it may be a loom fault between the sensor and ECU) whilst the engine is cranking. Without knowing the results of this test I'm afraid we're stabbing in the dark.

Darren

Title: Re: at the end of my teather please help
Post by TiberiuS on Jul 2^nd, 2007, 10:40pm

AFAIK, if it goes open or short circuit, it'll set a code...at least it does on the Jag, Ford should be similar.

If there's no spark you need to check if you're getting positive feed to the coils (they should be negative switched through the EDIS), if no pos feed you're looking for a loom/fuse/relay. If pos feed is there, it's EDIS, PATS crank sensor etc.