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        General >> Problems >> Problems come in two's
        
(Message started by: Chieftain on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:20am)

Title: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:20am

Firstly, noticed recently that if I allow the steeering wheel to slip through my hands to self centre or let go the car veers sharply to the left, and although not a lot of force is required to straighten up it is not as it should be. Tyres ok, wheels ok, only thing is after a long hard drive the O/S hub cap (small one) is warm while N/S is not. Car is P reg Cossie.

Second is bonnet catch seems to be releasing the bonnet onto second catch. This is even though when slammed shut it is secure, cable is intact as you can open bonnet in normal fashion but seems slack.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 7:56am

Unusual, If the hot hub had been on the other side i'd have said the brakes were binding.

Possibly wishbone bushes but hat wouldnt account for the heat in the hub

The catch that secures the bonnet sometimes siezes up, try a bit of WD40 and work the lever back and forwards

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 19^th, 2007, 8:08am

Probably not very clear but not so much the actual hub rather the cover that goes over the road wheel nuts, it is warm to touch while other is cool.

Is there good way to check if it is the brakes binding? that seems to make sense with the way the car pulls over, seems to much for tracking.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Highlander on Jun 19^th, 2007, 9:06am

Jack the car up and spin the wheel, you should feel it if its sticking.
The heat in the cover must be coming from either the brakes or the hub though

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 20^th, 2007, 2:31pm

wel just checked all today and brakes and bushes seem ok. what has happended though is the inside edges of both front tyres are worn smooth with the nearside down to the wire, these were ok but would have been renewed later on this year. Help

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Jun 20^th, 2007, 2:53pm

for safety's sake check for free play in the wheel, i.e. bearings.
i've just had a new hub n bearings put on my rear o/s wheel, i did a trip to wales, noticed some squeling n screeching, had a quick peer through the wheel at the pads and noticed they were down to metal. on the way back the scorp started to, well, drift here and there, i changed the pads when i got home and noticed the wheel had nearly 2 inches of play!
due to lack of time i took it to my local garage, he's kept the old hub as a souvineer, he's never seen one that badly damaged still on a car! as for the bearings, they were not found, not even bits of them!
the bill was a couple of hundred, but cheap compared to my life i spose..... ::)

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 20^th, 2007, 4:36pm

Thanks for the tip. when I checked it all out I checked for rim rock and that felt fine, so hoping it is tracking even though it is 2 new tyres.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Rod on Jun 21^st, 2007, 12:55pm

Hi Chieftain

I had a similar steering 'wander' on my 2.9 12v about 6 weeks ago and was horrified - as I am sure you were - when I discovered my otherwise good front tyres down to the metal on the inner lips.

Had new tyres fitted but Tyreman pointed out a wobble in what he assumed was the ball joint and as a result he could not do the tracking.

Took the car to Garageman who found that the steering rack was u/s - he used another word actually. :-[

Sorry to suggest even further expense - but it would be a good idea to check the rack as well as everything else.

Rod

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by mindofitsown on Jun 21^st, 2007, 3:09pm

Unlike some of the guys on this forum I'm no expert but the description of your tyres would suggest that the tracking is seriously mis-aligned and your symptom is one of too much toe-out. The scorpios being rear wheel drive require the front wheels to be set as toed-in to overcome the gyroscopic effects at speed whereas front wheel drive cars require toe-out setting for the same reason but opposing effect. In over 20 years of searching for a good garage that understands the difference between toe-in and toe-out and 'degrees' versus 'mm' I have only found one and stick to it rigidly.
I know of a guy who's rear wheel drive Chrysler is off the road because he can't afford new front tyres and his had worn to the metal (inside portion) in less than 15000 miles. I had a quick look at it and could tell from the front that both wheels were tracked as toe-out (so much so that you can see it easily by eye) and should be toed-in!! No wonder. I'm afraid that many garages simply don't know what they are doing and this guy is seeking finacial compensation.
The warmth felt on one wheel may be the result of the heat build up in the tyre from excessive surface friction due to the tracking error. On a long dry run the heat can be transmitted through the tyre wall and metal wheels to the centre and can give the impression of brake-binding or bearing problem. Note however that the bearings are taking the strain of the excessive friction mentioned earlier and thus will run warmer than usual as a result, adding albeit slightly to the heat build up.
Another point is the balance valve within power steering racks (I'm not sure if the scorpio has this conventional arrangement as I've never looked) but you can check if the balance is correct by putting the steering wheel at dead centre and then without touching the steering wheel start the engine. If the steering wheel moves on its own its very likely to be the balance valve setting or the rack is worn on one side. In days gone by, balance was adjustable on the outside of racks but I'm not sure if the scorpio has this arrangement. If you find the steering wheel does move on its own slightly, you should note that this effect is vastly magnified when the vehicle is at speed (for the same reason that steering is lighter during vehicle forward movement than if stationary). You can simulate the effect by doing the experiment again but this time putting the of the car on axle stands to lift the front wheels off the ground.
BTW, I would suggest the dodgy bonnet catch is your priority.
Regards, let us know how you get on.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Highlander on Jun 21^st, 2007, 6:46pm

Certainly sounds like tracking or something worn on the rack if its not the wishbone bushes

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by jonnycab on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 12:27am

I'd agree with Taliban (cheekyboy2... ;)) about a probable bearing problem :)

Everytime I've had a bearing go, the early indications were a hot wheel centre.

I've only had rear bearings go, but I would imagine a front bearing that is dry/worn would make the car pull to one side as it starts to stiffen up with the heat build up :)

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by mr._floppy on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 12:59am

The tracking would need to be out a serious amount of toe-out to produce tyre wear like that, the tyres would squeal like Steve McQueen's Mustang in Bullitt just pootling round Asda's car park and the steering would need arms of steel to turn it :-X

My leetel grey cells suspect that extreme Negative camber is the chief suspect.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by jonnycab on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 1:31am

Surely an extreme negative camber on one the front wheels would be noticed just by looking at it ? :)

I think I may have read this wrong to start with...so the bearing theory may be wrong :-/....but just to confirm.....it's pulling to the left, but it's the drivers side wheel centre that is getting hot ? :)

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 12:08pm

To confirm it pulls to the left, no rim rock so bearings should be ok, it is the wheel nut cover that is only just warm to the touch, compared the n/s which is cool. No tyre squeal buy drove from Gloucester to N Wales and that is what did the tyres. Mechanic checking it today so will let you know his views.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 12:56pm

hi there

can you tell us what wheels your car has. 15" teardrop or 16" 12 spokes?

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 1:02pm

16/12

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 1:30pm

hi there

that sheds some more light on it. for the cap on the 16" to get warm, the hub must be very warm.
i'd get the wheel off and have a look at the brakes, etc as has been pointed out.

the tyre issue i'd look at the wishbone balljoints, but i'd make sure there's nothing wrong with the brake/hub first because of the cost of new wishbones. :(

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 1:47pm

Done that brakes ok

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Highlander on Jun 23^rd, 2007, 10:30pm

Can only be the wheel bearing then, when you checkied it did you jack the wheel off the ground?

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 24^th, 2007, 9:23am

Wheels off ground for checking rim rock. If it is bearings what do you think about changing the whole hub complete if possible to obtain a good known second hand one rather than do the bearins. Or are they easier than it looks and sounds.

IF it stops raining I am going to slowly check it all out again today and see if i can finalise what is wrong. But as always thanks all for input, it does give a start line to work from

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jun 24^th, 2007, 2:38pm

Well checked each station fully, brakes and pads ok, bushes ok, bearings ok, only thing I found was the discs are nearly ready for renewal. Whatever i have to take it to get new tyres and tracking checked, so not wishing to risk the one which has worn the most, on went the spare, very nice brand new Michelain. Once fitted took it for a drive, no steering wobble, no pull to left, steering nice and easy. So now even more confused as I would love to say it was the so and so that had failed changed that and tickity boo. Will see what the tracking shows up.

Noticed my coolant is green coloured, not seen that since looking in coolant tank of a Challenger tank. Question is what make could it be and is it alright to mix or do I need one day to flush and refill with the normal (so it seems) blue mix?

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Neil W on Jun 24^th, 2007, 4:58pm

If you don't know what the green coolant actually is, I would suggest that you drain and refill with the current spec anti-freeze for the Cosworth (pink) rather than mixing with an unknown anti-freeze as this could cause unexpected problems.

For the camber to be negative, which would wear the inside edges of your tyres, have a look at the front springs. I changed mine recently because they were rusty (therefore liable to break) and was surprised at how much shorter they were compared with new ones.

When you brake lightly, do you get a smooth reduction in speed? I began to get less than smooth braking and this turned out to be high spots on a disc, only noticeable with a proper gauge to check run-out, which heated up the brakes and hub, even though the discs were Ford parts and less than 3 years old. New discs and pads solved the over-heating problem as well as restoring smooth braking.

Hope this helps,

Neil W.

Title: Re: Problems come in two's
Post by Chieftain on Jul 5^th, 2007, 8:57pm

Just to update, the tyre problem has now been solved, but what caused it have no idea, new tyres, tracking and camber checked all ok, have doen a few runs of 40 miles and steering is as it should be, long drive over w/e so will check the hubs for excessive heat. How hot should the hub feel after 3 hour long fast drive?

Can not sort the bonnet lock though, catch moves freely and when you slam the bonnet it locks solid, after a while it then loosens and hangs on second lock (will be secured for long drive) The cable is slck on the release catch but not brocken as it still works. Even though there is tension on the spring could it be weak?