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        General >> Problems >> no start no spark
        
(Message started by: j1guitar on Aug 6^th, 2007, 10:46pm)

Title: no start no spark
Post by j1guitar on Aug 6^th, 2007, 10:46pm

hi

ford cosworth 24v 1995 n reg

The problems on my scorpio have just moved from a faulty abs controller to the car not starting at all, yikes!!!

I took it for a drive of about 30 miles and it was running fine, left it overnight went to start it the next day and it turned over but wouldnt start.
I took 1 of the ht leads off the coil pack and rested it in place and on cranking the engine there was no popping of a spark at all so i repeated this on a different cylinder but again nothing.

Having just purchased the tricom lead and vehicle explorer I connected up and went to; codes: enhanced
to try to read the pcm and all I got was

P1000 OBD-II Monitor Testing Incomplete

now this doesnt seem right but does the engine have to be running to acess this ( I dont think so) this would point to a faulty pcm

It could be coil pack and i have ordered one of these from ebay

the other 2 things are the edis6 ei module or the camshaft sensor (if the camsensor had broken would this invoke los or just stop the engine from firing)

I have checked the obvious fuses and fuel cut off but would anything on the fuel side of things stop the plugs from sparking (I wouldnt think so but someone may know differently)

Absolutely any help or opinions would be greatly appreciated as I have a totally dead car at the moment
many thanks
j1guitar

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by TiberiuS on Aug 6^th, 2007, 11:36pm

Hi. found this on a website, it might help:

Q: What is the code P1000?

A: P1000 is not actually a trouble code. It just means that the Readiness code has not been set yet or in other words, the engine computer hasn't completed testing certain emission control components. If there is no other problems with the car emission system, the code P1000 will disappear after driving for some time (the drive circle must include idling, stop and go traffic, acceleration and steady cruising).

Did you have the battery disconnected just before the fault? :-/

Dead crank sensor should stop it firing, The 24v should still start with 2 or even 3 dead coils.

If there's certainly no spark, the crank sensor is a good place to start IMO, check the connector too. Also check fuses, a blown fuse could be the culprit :)

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by j1guitar on Aug 6^th, 2007, 11:41pm

aha good call on this code thanks!!!!

I thought the same about the coils but you never know
managed to get a camsensor from the same guy so will be able to try this on wednesday when it arrives

Battery charging at the moment as well because I flattened it try all sorts of things on saturday

no the battery was not disconnected just before it happened

ps. you guys stay up way too late !!!!!

thanks
j1guitar

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by j1guitar on Aug 7^th, 2007, 12:00am

Just reread your post and noticed that you said cranksensor

I was on the understanding that it was the camshaft sensor that is used to initiate the firing sequence and then the crank angle sensor takes over after the engine has fired

going by this logic the engine should at least catch even if the crank angle sensor has broken

what do you think?

thanks
j1guitar

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by jonnycab on Aug 7^th, 2007, 12:59am

No spark I think would point more toward the coil packs or EDIS module. However, I'm not sure a coil pack would be fine one minute then kaput the next.

Another member recently had a similar problem which ended up to be not the EDIS module itself, but the wiring close to the multiplug :)

Regarding the cam & crank sensors, have you read this ? (scroll down about a third of the way).....

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm

P.S...are you sure it's nothing to with PATS ?

Good luck :)

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by TiberiuS on Aug 7^th, 2007, 11:46am

Welcome back Jonny ;D ;)

AFAIK, although the cam sensor looks more precision, the engine will actually run without it (I've been told it'd start but take longer to fire) but if the crank sensor goes kaput it won't fire at all (same on many cars)

I'm not sure if a dead crank sensor would stop it firing or just cut the fuel input, I'm pretty sure it would stop it firing, as the ECU wouldn't know when to pulse the coils.

But, you're doing the right thing. Decent second hand parts is the way to go, at least until you've singled out the culprit

Check with the ignition on that you've got 12v between the coilpacks and earth, this is a good place to start :)

EDIT: You may find these (http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/sierra_el.html) very useful, although they say Sierra, they are the wiring diagrams for the Scorpio. The 'Engine control 24v' page gives the coilpackconnections etc, good place to start.

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by jonnycab on Aug 7^th, 2007, 12:33pm

[]....I've just disconnected the camshaft sensor on my 2.3 & tried to start it.....It started first time & seemed to tick over as normal.

My experience with a faulty camshaft sensor in the past, was that it caused the engine to pink under load :)

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by j1guitar on Aug 7^th, 2007, 1:12pm

ok guys thanks for the input

as I am waiting for the parts I thought that i would check the integrity of the wiring so I started with the easiest first, the link from the coil to the connector under the abs ( the link to the pcm i believe )

Someone had already attacked this with insulating tape and when i took it off i can see why - the typical insulation flaking that i had on my other scorpio

The wires however were intact and quite well insulated with the tape around it so I separated them out and used a multimeter to check them all checked out ok - no wires shorting

I then connected up the main plug to the coils ( 4 wires) which left 1 more wire and connector which spurs off one of the 4 ( Green wire ) and connects to a clipped connector on the side of the coil housing Does anyone know what this is is it just an earth ?

Checking the connections now everything is in short circuit all wires shorting with each other surely this cant be right there should at least be some resistance there

what do you think coil pack gone?

also what amp wire would be good to replace these as I might as well tidy in up while I have time

many thanks for everyones input so far it has been very helpful

wow just read your post about camsensor johnny thanks a lot I guess thats one I can count out !!!!

j1guitar

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by TiberiuS on Aug 7^th, 2007, 2:01pm

Well, you seem to be confident with the faultfinding which is good.

I don't think a coil could fail short circuit, normally the windings fatigue and break up. Maybe a few turns shorting but not hard short internally, maybe someone can prove me wrong.

Afraid I can't help with the connector to the coils, I've only had experience with the 2.3 and the coil setup is different. But looking at the diagrams, it's the green wire which connects to the 'ignition transformer capacitor'. Unless the capacitor reads hard short, don't worry about it...it should read a high resistance on the multimeter once charged.

I think I'd check for 12v at one of the coils, then check each fuse...just in case. If you've got tht 12v feed then the EDIS (aka electronic distributor) isn't firing the coils for some reason, you know the loom to the coils themselves is ok. If you've got no 12v you're looking for a supply problem, the EDIS and crank sensor are working ok.

This is when it becomes very handy to have an oscilloscope :).

Regarding wire, the loom to the coils doesn't carry a high current, on my 2.3 I remember the wire was about 1mm, I used 1.5 to replace it which was fine except that it was a tight squeeze in places.

Hope this helps ;D

Regards, Bruce.

BTW, yes, I did go to bed late last night and I am on here too much at the moment ;D

But I have the defence that I'm working on the place this week and my laptop is out in the garden in the shade...enjoying the weather before the rain comes back to haunt us :(

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by Tompion on Aug 7^th, 2007, 5:04pm

I think on the 2.3 the crank sensor is for ignition timing, & the cam sensor gives a more precise firing of the injectors.
Other engines/makes may be different.

Dave

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by j1guitar on Aug 7^th, 2007, 5:16pm

ok a quick update on the wiring stripping as rain has stopped play.

What a shocker just spent the last hour and a half unwinding about 2 rolls of insulating tape from the looms phew

I have found a broken wire yay!!!
no idea what it is though

It is a green and black wire which follows the camsensor wiring and then disappears somewhere in the middle of the engine it comes from the same connector plug as the coils- I know its a bit sketchy but has anyone any idea what it is (its not the cranksensor unfortunately)

Cant do any voltage checks at present as the battery is still out I will reconnect later once ive done a bit more messing with the loom

thanks guys
j1guitar

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by Tompion on Aug 7^th, 2007, 5:38pm

Have a look here(ignore that it says sierra it applies to our cars) http://www.carsoft.ru/avtorepair/sierra_el.html at Engine Control 2.9l V6 24V EFI

It shows injector 5 as BK/GN but haven’t spotted green/black.

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by j1guitar on Aug 7^th, 2007, 6:56pm

THIS IS SURREY WE HAVE IGNITION

well that was it - one little broken wire

battery back in and started first time

mmn black green/ green black how do i know the difference so fuel injector no5 would this stop it from firing ?? how bizzare

anyway guys thanks a ton for your knowledge and expert help, I have learnt absolutely loads about this car in the past 2 days

now I've got to tape up the looms again ho hum better do it before it gets dark

thank you thank you thank you
j1guitar

Title: Re: no start no spark
Post by Tompion on Aug 7^th, 2007, 7:09pm

The first colour is the main colour, the second is the stripe, but who cares if you've got it going ;D well done.