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(Message started by: madalaine123 on Mar 24th, 2008, 5:54pm)
Title: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Mar 24th, 2008, 5:54pm
Hello all I have jus bought my third scorpio and this ones a 95 turbo diesel and i was wondering how many people out there have tried the vegetable oil in their engines and if they have had any problems. Is it such a good idea i've heard it's not so good for the fuel pump is this true

And another thing I have also been told by a mechanic friend of mine that it's a good idea to change the alternator to a 120 amp version because the original one is not really that good. Is this advisable and is it quite an easy job to do
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by Geoff_W on Mar 24th, 2008, 7:10pm
Highlander is the one to talk to about vegetable oil. Stuart will be along before to long, he has been running a diesel on that fuel for a while now.

Geoff
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 24th, 2008, 7:24pm
yep the original alternator was 70 or 75amp and couldnt cope, this was subsequently changed for a 120 or 125 amp one. how easy the job is im not sure having not done it. if the one have is working ok, stick with it but keep an eye out on ebay etc for another.

i've run mine on veggie oil quite a lot and the only problem i've had is the sudden overnight price hike in veggie oil by supermarkets, however it is still cheaper than the 116p per litre for diesel. the scorp seems well suited to veggie oil, it even already has an inline fuel heater. as long as  the fuel pump is made by bosch and not lucas it should be fine, in the summer i run mine totally on veggie oil, when its colder i generally mix it with diesel as veggie oil can solidify in the tank when the weathers colder.
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by a900one on Mar 24th, 2008, 7:55pm
I only used up to 30% veg oil in my mondeo and it ran very well on that, you could tell it was not  running on just  diesel by the smell of the exhaust.
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by mijfife on Mar 24th, 2008, 10:15pm
Hi, I've been running my '96 TD estate on veg since I bought it and although I've only covered about 3000 miles so far, I've had no problems  :) The VM engine fitted to the pre facelift Scorpios is very tolerant of veg oil and being an indirect injection and a Bosch pump, should be okay on a single tank set up. I've been thinning my veg oil with 10% unleaded during the colder months as this works better than using diesel (5% unleaded has the equivalent thinning properties of 40% diesel). It always starts within 2 seconds of turning the key and although the idle can be a bit lumpy on the cold mornings, this settles out after a few minutes.
If you do decide to go veggie, I'd recommend making sure that the injectors and heater plugs are in good condition first. You might also have to do a couple of fuel filter changes during the first few hundred miles as the Veg oil can often loosen all the crud in your fuel tank and block the filter. It is also advisable to shorten the oil change intervals when running on veg, I'm probably going to do this every 3000 miles. An excellent site for info on all things veg is www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk. I'm currently running on Pura 1ltr bottles bought from Tesco Extra stores for 56p per ltr  ;D Current legislation allows you to use 2500 litres without paying duty or registering with the Customs & Exise, just keep records of your usage. I'm planning to build a filtering station very soon and get the car running on filtered waste veg oil.

Cheers Jim
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by auntiephil on Mar 25th, 2008, 5:29pm
i am also thinking of running on veg oil now that the price of diesel is extortionately high, what effect does running on veg oil have i.e. fuel consumption, noise, smoke,reliability, performance,emisssions etc many thanks for any replies,phil.
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 25th, 2008, 5:39pm
consumption, noise, reliability, performance, emissions all seem to be the same as is the smoke except.........it smells of burnt fat..... ::)
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by chrali on Mar 27th, 2008, 12:08pm

on 03/25/08 at 17:39:20, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:
consumption, noise, reliability, performance, emissions all seem to be the same as is the smoke except.........it smells of burnt fat..... ::)


Hmmmm I disagree a bit. I ran our Rover 620 diesel on SVO for a few months during autumn/winter and do NOT think its worth the risk if you're doing it to save money.
Unless you run a twin tank system, cold oil will increase wear in the pump, can be an absolute pig to start on a cold morning, flush the crud out of you fuel lines causing blocked fuel filters, cause gummy deposits in the cylinders etc (remember the crud that builds up on the chip fan!), not lubricate the pump properly and require the use of various system cleaner additives (millers etc).

In other words you need to weigh up the benefit of the cheaper (to buy!) fuel, with the increased maintenance and potential for reduced mechanical longevity.

As I cant afford to replace my car if something goes badly wrong, I ended up just running on diesel again ... mentally felt happier and a reliable 40 - 50mpg should be enough for anyone.

Also SVO isnt that cheap anymore. If you can filter WVO and you have a few hundred stashed away for emergencies, then its worth the risk.

I dont....  :)
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 27th, 2008, 5:01pm
chrali, if you have a look back through the posts you'll see how the scorp is ideally suited to running on chippy fat; it uses a bosch fuel pump which are fine with veggie unlike lucas, it also already has an inline fuel heater so you dont have the cold oil/pump scenario, veggie oil is also exactly that....oil, so the fuel pump does get lubricated. as for using it neat in the winter, i dont think any of us do as it can solidify in the tank (unless you have a tank heater), i generally mix it with diesel in winter but in the summer i put in neat veggie from the indian grocers and as i've said earlier apart from the smell* have noticed no difference. one member on here has been using it for at least 3 years and i think he said 30 or so thousand miles with no problem. i agree with what you say about the price increase of veggie, its a downright liberty

*might add some patchouli oil..... ;D
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Mar 27th, 2008, 7:31pm
Hey guys thanx for the replies that's quite pleasing to find out that I can run my car on veg oil because i picked my car up from the garage today having had the manifold gasket replaced because it looked like it was blowing (and it was blowing alot) but £80 later and it's exactly the same. It looks like it's coming from the inlet manifold just above now but i'm thinking how the hell can this be how can you get exhaust smoke coming out of the inlet manifold i'm a bit confused I'm gonna have to strip it down and have a look tomorrow i'm a bit scared of doing that i must admit I have worked on cars before but mostly old minis and novas i don't really understand diesels that well. Anyway wish me luck and thanx for all the replies to the veggie oil thing it's very much appreciated I have a funny feeling i'm going to have to tighten the purse strings a bit to fix my car
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by chrali on Mar 28th, 2008, 3:01pm

on 03/27/08 at 17:01:26, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:
chrali, if you have a look back through the posts you'll see how the scorp is ideally suited to running on chippy fat; it uses a bosch fuel pump which are fine with veggie unlike lucas, it also already has an inline fuel heater so you dont have the cold oil/pump scenario, veggie oil is also exactly that....oil, so the fuel pump does get lubricated. as for using it neat in the winter, i dont think any of us do as it can solidify in the tank (unless you have a tank heater), i generally mix it with diesel in winter but in the summer i put in neat veggie from the indian grocers and as i've said earlier apart from the smell* have noticed no difference. one member on here has been using it for at least 3 years and i think he said 30 or so thousand miles with no problem. i agree with what you say about the price increase of veggie, its a downright liberty

*might add some patchouli oil..... ;D


Ah well I'm no expert on the Ford diesel  ;D, the older rovers can run well on oil depeding on pump type. I cannot remember which was thats dire (LUCAS CAV?). Mines the one that works ok!! Its tempting that the scorps have the diesel with an inline heater (very tempting). I didnt use it oil neat, more like 80% oil to 20% diesel.

It is common for use of oil to cause filters to clog as mine and other peoples did, as it does flush the fuel system ( dunno if this scenario changes over time ) and gumming up of pistons rings, bores, and injectors is also common, which is why everyone users additives to clean the fuel system.

How long all this takes itself to manifest I don't know.

Time for me to find a diesel  ;D
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Mar 28th, 2008, 8:25pm
the ford diesel is actually an....erm....italian marine diesel... ::)
i dont think its the actual engine that matters, more the fuelling.
you can buy inline heaters for 20-30 quid on ebay but the scorp having one saves that.
i think the filters clogging etc is a bit of a blessing in disguise as it encourages you to be a bit more on the ball with basic servicing, although so far i havent suffered filter clogging etc...
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by mijfife on Mar 28th, 2008, 10:21pm
From what I've read, the filter clogging is only in the initial stages of changing to veg oil and only happens if the tank has crud in there to start with. I've had no problems with this either. Generally the electric heaters are thought to be a waste of money as the little heat they put into the oil is lost as soon as it enters a cold injector pump.
What does help on the Scorpio though is the fact that the filter housing is bolted to the engine and very close to the pump so you should get a decent heat transfer when the engine is warm. Any damage should only occur on a cold engine as the veg oil doesn't burn properly and can cause ring gumming although this is less of a problem on the indirect injection engines as fitted to the Scorpios than a more modern DI engine. Best bet is to keep the revs down initially until the car warms up.
My Scorpio only cost me £650 and once I get onto waste oil it should pay for itself very quickly indeed   :)

Cheers Jim
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by peteHull on Mar 29th, 2008, 11:26pm
I passed our local take away the other day and there was a big truck with tanks on board, it said WASTE OIL RECYCLING SERVICES and OIL SUPPLIES. they were loading the barrels of waste oil into the tanks.... ???

I thought to myself... heyup there, they've been rumbled (wvo users) that is...  ???  these guys are obviousely offering a service to the take aways, supplying oil and also cashing in on the waste product....
One or two others actually use the waste oil in the pizza delivery vehicles.  I think this will increase the demand for vo more and escalate prices even higher,  {} Band Waggon comes to mind...
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by sector-9 on Mar 31st, 2008, 12:33am
I ran my '95 TD on 100% SVO without problems, though it didn't idle very well for the first 15-20 seconds on cold mornings (under about 6degC).  Top end was about 10mph lower and it used slightly more "fuel", but still well worth doing.

Biggest problem I had was how to transfer 75 litres of SVO from four 20ltr drums into the fuel tank.  Obviously you can't use a funnel as the tank filler is on an almost vertical surface and holding a 20ltr drum in the air isn't fun.  Hand operated pumps work but you're crouched down by the back wheel for a while and your hands ache afterwards.  In the end I used a 12V submersible pump similar to those used by caravans.  Problem is that SVO is much thicker than water and it pumps very slowly, in fact this was the slowest method but didn't involve much effort.

Finally, don't spill veg oil on the bodywork - it shouldn't damage the paintwork but it dries to a very sticky mess which is difficult to clean off.  One more thing (promise) is that the thicker oil stresses the fuel pump more than regular diesel, esepcially when cold, so obviously wear will be increased, but unless you're planning on keeping your car for another 60,000 miles on top of whatever it's done, I think that's academic.  Just make sure you change your fuel filter regularly as it'll be more likely to clog up and overwork the pump; and don't scrimp on engine oil/filter changes...

Darren
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by chrali on Mar 31st, 2008, 8:53am

on 03/31/08 at 00:33:00, sector-9 wrote:
I ran my '95 TD on 100% SVO without problems, though it didn't idle very well for the first 15-20 seconds on cold mornings (under about 6degC).  Top end was about 10mph lower and it used slightly more "fuel", but still well worth doing.

Biggest problem I had was how to transfer 75 litres of SVO from four 20ltr drums into the fuel tank.  Obviously you can't use a funnel as the tank filler is on an almost vertical surface and holding a 20ltr drum in the air isn't fun.  Hand operated pumps work but you're crouched down by the back wheel for a while and your hands ache afterwards.  In the end I used a 12V submersible pump similar to those used by caravans.  Problem is that SVO is much thicker than water and it pumps very slowly, in fact this was the slowest method but didn't involve much effort.

Finally, don't spill veg oil on the bodywork - it shouldn't damage the paintwork but it dries to a very sticky mess which is difficult to clean off.  One more thing (promise) is that the thicker oil stresses the fuel pump more than regular diesel, esepcially when cold, so obviously wear will be increased, but unless you're planning on keeping your car for another 60,000 miles on top of whatever it's done, I think that's academic.  Just make sure you change your fuel filter regularly as it'll be more likely to clog up and overwork the pump; and don't scrimp on engine oil/filter changes...

Darren



You've obviously not tried filling the car up from 3 litres bottles from a supermarket!!!!! You soon run out of space in the recycling bin.  ;D ;D ;D

It does make a difference what oil you use. Apparently soya oils are the worse as they're quite thick. Corn oil etc is better.
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Apr 4th, 2008, 6:57pm
Hi I put vegetable oil in my car It was about 30 litres of the tesco 56p a litre pura rapeseed oil and I drove it for about 12 hours and now I have a really bad leak from the fuel pump it's coming from the bottom somewhere I think although it's very difficult to be sure because it's so hard to see I'm quite dissapointed really because everybody seemed to say that my engine and fuel pump was perfect for veggie oil I guess it could be that my fuel pump was just about to pack up and it hasn't got anything to do with the veggie oil

Has anyone ever come accross this problem before

The leak started this morning. It wasn't really cold and i didn't have any probblems starting the engine I just noticed the terrible leak
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by sector-9 on Apr 4th, 2008, 9:19pm
What type of oil is it leaking?
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Apr 4th, 2008, 9:23pm
Hi the oil coming from the pump is definately vegetable oil there's no dought about it the fuel gauge goes down quicker too so it's definately the veggie oil
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by Kjetil S on Apr 4th, 2008, 10:44pm
Partially blocked filter? Check if it's leaking around the filter. The filter should be above the left side rear axle iirc.
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Apr 5th, 2008, 10:58am
thanx mate i will try that today thank you very much I hope it's that and not the pump thanx mate
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by mijfife on Apr 5th, 2008, 12:03pm
Hi Madalaine123, someone on the vegetableoildiesel  forum I use had a similar problem, (I think he may be on here too) it's not unheard of for the veg oil to harden a seal, especially if it's close to failing anyway. I'll try and find his posting on his problem from what I remember it was a fairly easy fix and not the whole pump.

Cheers Jim
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by mijfife on Apr 5th, 2008, 12:08pm
Hi again Madalaine123, I found his post quicker than I thought I would have  ;D Here's the text from his post when he found the problem, I hope it helps.

Cheers Jim

"Anyway, an update to say THE PUMP DID NOT SPRING A LEAK!
After days of spalshing gunk engine cleaner around my engine bay and jetwashing the engine every morning - i tracked it down to the fuel return connection banjo bolt thingy on the rear of the pump, so an easy fix and all back up and running fine."
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by cuzza on Apr 5th, 2008, 2:34pm
:) been running my bighorn on vegoil for 4 yrs with no proplems add 2.5 ltrs of unleaded to every 25 ltrs of oil nov -april ...rape seed oil works best ...go to chinese cash and carry for this  ;) ;)
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Apr 6th, 2008, 4:36pm
madalaine, i think kj has got mixed up with the petrol version, the diesel filter is actually next to the engine....a big canister...
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by Kjetil S on Apr 6th, 2008, 7:23pm

on 04/06/08 at 16:36:12, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:
madalaine, i think kj has got mixed up with the petrol version, the diesel filter is actually next to the engine....a big canister...


I didn't know the filter was in a different place on the diesel. I stand corrected  :)
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Apr 6th, 2008, 7:27pm
its quite handy, easy to get too.....
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Apr 7th, 2008, 8:41am
Hello all I'm very grateful for the responses I have used all the veggie oil that was in the tank now and am now running the car on just diesel I think I should of mixed it with more petrol to thin it out more or something. I will check the pipes and see if they are leaking because even with diesel in it it's still leaking a little bit but I need to go and buy a new jack first coz my hydrolic jack is not strong enough to get this car off the ground. Once i've done this I'm gonna try veggie again and put more petrol in to thin it out coz the difference when running my car on veggie was massive especially when i managed to get the 56p stuff from tesco.

Last time i was in tesco in hatfield they were saying that they might stop selling the 56p veggie oil because loads of people are coming in and ordering it and it's causing them loads of hassle.

I found lidl in welwyn garden city did it for 78p a litre which is still better than £1.16p a litre
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by mijfife on Apr 7th, 2008, 5:02pm
The 56p litre Pura is no more  :'( I had read on the veg forum that there had been a dramatic price increase and sure enough when I went to collect my regular order today, it had jumped to £1.07 a litre  :o Needless to say, I didn't buy any!

Cheers Jim
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Apr 7th, 2008, 6:47pm
You're right mate i couldn't believe it from 56p to 107p it's unbelieveable I was well peed off
I have seen veggie in lidl for 86p that's the cheapest I've seen it so far
I'm gonna try and find some good places and list them on here I've already checked out aldi tesco ocado sainsburys asda I'm trying to think of where there's a somerfield maybe they've got good prices there
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by mijfife on Apr 7th, 2008, 11:36pm
Aldi is doing some for 78p per ltr, other than that, I've heard that Booker Cash & Carry have some on special at the mo.... most of the supermarkets are around the 99p per ltr mark just now   :(

Cheers Jim
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by PeteB on Apr 8th, 2008, 12:36pm
£8.30 for 15 1L bottles @ booker making it 53p a litre.

Pete
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by python9 on Apr 10th, 2008, 8:26am

on 03/27/08 at 19:31:54, madalaine123 wrote:
Hey guys thanx for the replies that's quite pleasing to find out that I can run my car on veg oil because i picked my car up from the garage today having had the manifold gasket replaced because it looked like it was blowing (and it was blowing alot) but £80 later and it's exactly the same. It looks like it's coming from the inlet manifold just above now but i'm thinking how the hell can this be how can you get exhaust smoke coming out of the inlet manifold i'm a bit confused I'm gonna have to strip it down and have a look tomorrow i'm a bit scared of doing that i must admit I have worked on cars before but mostly old minis and novas i don't really understand diesels that well. Anyway wish me luck and thanx for all the replies to the veggie oil thing it's very much appreciated I have a funny feeling i'm going to have to tighten the purse strings a bit to fix my car

the manifold gasket is a simple diy job   and the gasket is a combined inlet and exhaust metal one  for £10 would take about 1.5 hours   i have stripped mine down a few times  and it takes me 1.5  to take  everything off down to the block
Title: Re: vegetable oil in a diesel pros and cons
Post by madalaine123 on Apr 19th, 2008, 12:41pm
Hi i have not been able to solve my fuel pump problem it's pi**ing out quicker than ever before now so it looks like i'm gonna need to get another one does anyone have any experience in doing this. I've read the manual on replacing the fuel pump it doesn't look that difficult but I don't have the special tools that's the only thing.
Does anyone know a good place to get a pump from apart from ebay coz i can't find one on there yet
Is it a good idea to get it reconditioned I saw on the internet that a company called diesel bobs repairs fuel pumps and replaces the seals with stronger ones so they can take the pressure of the vegetable oil


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