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        General >> Problems >> cosworth won't start
        
(Message started by: fordfreak on Apr 20^th, 2008, 12:03am)

Title: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 20^th, 2008, 12:03am

I'm sure this must have come up many a time before but i've searched the forums and can't find anything. The car is a cosworth that refuses to start. The dashboard lights all light up but when turning the key everything is dead. I suspect the starter motor but RAC man came along today and reckons it is the fusebox. Both fuseboxes appear dry and i've tried all the wiggling and playing around with R11 etc. I then suspected the gearlever selector as it occasionally starts up fine without any wiggling etc. I really am stuck ! Any ideas anyone ?
Thanks in advance...

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by gozz on Apr 20^th, 2008, 11:36am

fordfreak.
Eliminate the starter motor by jamming a strong piece of metal across the main ter minals,then eliminate the solenoid by jamming something across the incoming main lead and the solenoid operating terminal.The starter inhibitor switch can be bridged over in it's plug and a power check made when the key is turned to start,this however is awkward and you may need a gynaecologist or lower the box a little,does R11 click when you turn ignition on ?
GOZZ.

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 20^th, 2008, 12:24pm

hi there
thanks for this, R11 does seem to click when turning on ignition.
I'll go out and brave the rain and try the 'jamming' thing. I knew that it was possible just wasn't sure how and i didn't want to 'jam' the wrong two bits !Thanks again

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 20^th, 2008, 5:21pm

well i have a result ! Even though R11 was clicking i thought i would swap it with the same looking relay next to it (R6 i think?). The car now starts. I did the bridging thing and the starter motor turned over. Problem is though, now that i have swapped the relays all my lights don't work so i guess the other relay must control lights and so on. Aim to get hold of another relay tomorrow or so and we'll then see (hopefully!) everything back to normal.....
Searched through all my relays and fuses in the shed. Every colour, size and shape except for the yellow one that i need !
Thanks again GOZZ for your help

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Simmo on Apr 20^th, 2008, 5:42pm

Relay 6 is for the main beam. Just a point. Have you made sure the connector is correctly located?. On the main fusebox unless the 'lugs' are located correctly the connector can go back on BUT one row of pins out and that can cause problems with the lights. There is a saying 'If it goes on easily the first time it 'aint right'!!.Worth a check. Do you have dipped beam?? as the relay relates to the main beam.

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 20^th, 2008, 6:31pm

i've just checked the relay and it's fitted well. In fact i swapped them back over and the car starts but i have no front lights whatsoever, nor any indicators nor reverse lights nor windscreen washer jets ! Weird.... the plot thickens

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Simmo on Apr 20^th, 2008, 7:59pm

I think you misunderstood my post. The crucial thing is the location of the large connector for the drivers side fusebox. :) Have a look at the fifth photograph in THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/drainholes.htm) article and you will see the 'connector' I mean at the front of the fusebox. It is this item I am talking about. If it has been removed it is likely not to have been replaced correctly.There are two lugs which MUST be located correctly BEFORE the unit is pressed home.

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 20^th, 2008, 11:22pm

Simmo
Thanks, yes i did misunderstand it a little. However i have checked that connector a million times as i am really hoping its the culprit but i am sure i've fitted it correctly. It makes sense that it is because after removing it and refitting it then only did the engine start. I'll have another look tomorrow...was hoping to take it to work tomorrow....

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Octavian_P on Apr 21^st, 2008, 9:17am

Hi there

I had a similar problem with my cossie, it wouldn't start. Making a short at the starter did make it run. The trouble in my case was the TRS (transmission rage sensor) multiplug which has been tampered with. What was happening was that with the gear selector in P or N the ecu wasn't reading the proper position so as a measure of safety the engine starter was being disabled to prevent the car starting in gear.

If you have an OBD-2 Lead the TRS would give an error code.

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by TiberiuS on Apr 21^st, 2008, 11:52am

I'm no 24v expert but from the issues I had with my DOHC I'd be betting my life on a loom/connector issue as Simmo mentioned :)

That main fusebox connector can be a pig, worth unplugging all the main connectors and giving it a good douse in WD40 and trying reconnecting everything.

AFAIK (it's been a while now ;)), if the gear shifter 'pringle' switch is out of park then it should sound the little siren when the driver's door is open.

Also check the looms for cracking/missing insulation, it can get bad in places with the heat of the engine.

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 21^st, 2008, 5:13pm

hi again, thanks everyone for all your help so far.
We have progress (well kind of). Yes i am a dummy and yes the fuse box connector was not on properly. But guess what? Now we have lights and all, but the engine won't start again. So i unclipped the connector and raised it somewhat so as just the rear connections are in place - engine now starts! Now this might be a real stab in the dark but the vehicle has recently had a new battery and it looks very small, it's only an '083'. Does anyone think it is because the battery is too 'weak'. I say this as this is what it looks like - fuse box connector fully pressed down, engine won't start. Raise connector a little and engine starts. Oh and just a few more points - in this 'current' state of everything connected, when the ignition is turned off the ignition lights remain on (handbrake, battery, oil). The way to turn them off is to take it out of park and back in again.
This is so bizarre !
If all else fails i could unplug connector every morning and start up before replacing connector again until next start up.......

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Simmo on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 7:18am

The crucial thing with the battery is that it MUST be the correct size in terms of CCA (Cold cranking amps) or it simply will not have the power to start the car, particularly the Cosworth, it will still turn over the engine however.The fact that with the connector 'raised' it will start would seem that somehow you are 'reducing' the amount of power required at the point of start-up. The other lights staying on would seem to indicate a switch or loom fault.
The details of the battery are HERE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/battery.htm). 650 CCA is the figure.

Bruce has indicated what may be the cause re the switch ..... and seems to have won his 'bet'! ;D

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by TiberiuS on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 12:15pm

Put a multimeter accross the battery, if you've got 12v there then it should start or at least get some loud noises from the starter solenoid, voltage on a bad battery will drop to almost 0 when asked for the current to start the engine. The time my battery died I got the loud 'click click click' from the solenoid and the dials all flicking around every time I turned the key.

I'd still be suspecting that connector, good douse in switch cleaner, plug it in a few times to scrape any corrosion from the pins and then flood the whole thing with electrical grease, see if it starts then :)

In fact I do that to the whole engine loom, unplug and douse every bloody connector I can find, Mondeo still starts no problem on wet days ::)

Listen to Simmo, he might be old but he knows, you know ::) ;D ;)

Regards, Bruce :)

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Snoopy on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 2:06pm

Also check the ashtray is NOT shorting out

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Simmo on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 5:21pm

Bruce !!! ::). I thought you'd been too good for too long!!! ;D

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by TiberiuS on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 6:52pm

on 04/22/08 at 17:21:26, Simmo wrote:

Bruce !!! ::). I thought you'd been too good for too long!!! ;D

Sorry Mike. Can't help it, it's this cheeky boy influence I've got building up inside of me, I have no control over it ::)

Cheers, Bruce ;)

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 6:56pm

good thinking re: the battery and voltmeter. Tried this and it appears as though no load is being asked of the battery when turning the key - so that eliminates that theory. I spoke to previous owner who tells me it happened "two or three times" so he changed the battery and then it was fine...until now. I suspect this to be the reason he sold the car. Spoke to previous, previous owner who tells me he had no problems whatsoever with it. The biggest being a 'change of tyres' ! Wow.
I'll have to give that as well as all the other connectors a go and report back.
Just one question, when turning the key i hear a 'click' type sound (like a relay) under the black wiper plastic somewhere near the heater multiplugs. Any ideas what's around this area that could be 'shorting'?
Thanks again to everyone for helping.
2 days till pay day....so another donation is due !

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 8:35pm

This is madness!!
What am i talking about ? Surely the fusebox connector controls everything? Right? And so by removing the connector completely everything should be dead? Well not in my case.
Took connector off, started engine and everything bar those items i mentioned earlier work.
Also as part of my investigations i took apart the gear selector trim and discovered a broken green/black wire. Unfortunately this wasn't the culprit either - i think this must be the o/d selector wire.
If this continues i'm going to have to drive it into a wall (well, not really but it eased some of my frustration just writing it!)

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by Snoopy on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 10:31pm

If its still live after taking fuses out check the ashtray is not shorting out .

Title: Re: cosworth won't start
Post by fordfreak on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 11:34pm

checked ashtray and that is not shorting out.
Anybody want to buy a facelift cosworth with 128k FFSH.....?
Had enough now.......