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Title: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 10:52am Ok, this is definitely my last thread as a Scorpio owner so many thanks to all for all your help over the years! As you may be aware I now need to replace my head gasket - I can pick up a replacement gasket kit in the next hour BUT I don't think I can do it without online help. I'm looking for someone who can help me. THe instructions I'lll be following are at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engines/dohc2_3/2300CylHead.pdf and I'm a bit puzzled by points 26. How do you set it to TDC, 28. Do you need this special tool or can I use something else? 30. Where do I get an M6 x 60 bolt, do I really need it? 32. It says; "In order", what order is that? 40. Do I just turn the crankshaft until the top of the piston is 25mm from the top of the bore? How accurate does this have to be? Any volunteers?? Thanks Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 9th, 2008, 12:25pm Hi Mike Not done the job on this engine but would say: 26 The mark on the pulley (attached to crankshaft) uppermost with both valves shut (compression stroke) on cylinder 1. 28 You shouldn’t need a special tool – just something to stop the sprocket turning. 30 I don’t know what this means but probably no great problem – it’s just a 6mm dia bolt 60mm long 32 Zoom in on the picture you’ll see they’re marked – make sure they go back to the same place/same way round. 40 Move the crankshaft to and fro slightly – just to make sure you’re at TDC then go back 25mm, a ruler is good enough Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 1:48pm Thanks Dave, I've done a bit of dismantling (took a while cos all the autogas pipes etc get in the way). I've decided to have a go so I'm going out to get the kit now and something to hold the sprockets. Another thing I'm not sure about is the "wrench for cylinder head bolts" mentioned on page 1. Dose anyone know what size that would be and does it have to be a long one? Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 9th, 2008, 2:07pm Can't help with size or length, but looks like a torx bit. I'd of thought your head kit should have new bolts, so you should be able to get the size from them. |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by scorpio_man on Aug 9th, 2008, 3:13pm hi mik,e remember you need a new tensioner every time you take the head/chain off (about £50 a go). good luck |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 3:25pm Man, it gets more complicated, the kit doesn't have bolts (I'm surprised too) so I'll have to wait and see - lol. As for the tensioner, I think I read that. That too isn't in the "kit!". Why do I need a new tensioner, the old one was ok before; does something happen to them when you remove them? And I couldn't get anything to hold the sprockets with, what would you advise using? Thanks again. Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 3:28pm Oh and I knew there was something else. Why do I have to remove the camshafts and the little cylinder thingies etc? Can't I just take the head off after I've removed the sprockets and chain and bolts? Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Simmo on Aug 9th, 2008, 3:40pm Mike, Grandadman has just done a job on his Cosworth and THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1216507098;start=6#6) might help. |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 3:50pm Ok, I guess you have to remove the camshafts to get at the head bolts. Another question. How do you know that the sprockets are in the same position relative to the camshafts? Do the only fit in one position or do I need to mark them? Thanks for the link Simmo, I'll look at that now. Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 3:59pm And another thing, where can I get the "chain tensioner hydaulic plunger" and do I REALLY need it?? Is it only from Fords? And, to recap, I need to know whether I have to mark the position of the sprockets relative to the camshafts. Thanks Mike Ok back out into the rain - hehe |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 9th, 2008, 10:41pm And finally, when it talks about tightening/loosening of bolts, what do references such as "21–167" mean? |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 12:58am It means your brains fried from looking at the manual too long :D (it's the part number of the tool on page 1) |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 6:58am Hahaha! Thanks Dave, I can't believe I've been wondering about that so long. Ok, I'll have the head off this morning and we'll see how flat it is, and it's not raining!!! Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 9:12am So, torx socket broke after 3rd cyl head bolt so off to Halfords; I'll get two I think. A few other things. 1. The upper chain guide (plastic) broke getting it out; I guess I can only get that from Ford. 2. That square joint in the vacuum pipe from the brake servo snapped when I was trying to remove it. HOW should I repair that do you think? 3. Also, because of the gas conversion, I had to dismantle the throttle/cruise control assembly (springs evrywhere!) are there any instructions for assembly that you know of? 4. Finally, one of the spark plugs snapped in two as I was removing it - hehe. Thanks for all this help, man I've never seen the inside of an engine before, it's really beautiful, I'm so glad I've been using flush and regular oil changes; it looks like new and I only changed the oil 600 miles ago so you can imagine how lovely it looks - wife thinks I'm crazy! Mike |
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Title: Help! - Head gasket Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:03am This may seem a silly question BUT: How do I lift off the head (including the in & out manifolds etc)? Working by myself, can I expect to do it by hand or do I need a hoist of some description? Also, should I remove the bonnet? Thanks Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:40am Hopefully someone will be along who’s actually done the job. I would think the guide is a ford only item. I don’t think it’s worth the risk repairing the servo joint, see how much a new one is – not everything costs an arm & a leg. Something about the cruise control here, but probably not enough: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmanl.htm (Not sure if you meant you were leaving the manifolds on) I would have thought you need the manifolds off - I think the inlet one is too vulnerable, I’d sooner have it out of the way. You may need to give the head a tap sideways with a mallet to break the joint, but should be able to lift it off on your own – with a bit of cursing. Wouldn’t have thought you’d need the bonnet off. Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:49am Ok, I've got both manifolds ON, that's what was recommended. The head lifts about half an inch ok all round but that's as far as it will go, can you think what's stopping it - should I try to get hold of a lift? THanks Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 11:57am I wouldn't use a lift in case what's stopping it is vulnerable - like the manofold. I think there's a bolt under the inlet manifold, not sure what it's attached to, check that - assume you have the petrol pipes off. Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 12:05pm This place has head bolts and some parts but only has guides as part of a chain kit, you’d have to check if the guide you want is there, & the chains may not have timing marks like the ford ones do. http://www.enginestuff.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=scorpio+2.3&x=21&y=13 If you order anything, make sure it's for a Y5A engine. Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 12:35pm Yes, petrol pipes, I don't remember them being mentioned, that makes sense. |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 12:36pm Where would you disconnect them? |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 12:56pm They pass from the wing through the branches of the inlet manifold. they have plastic ends one white one red. You squeeze the plastic lugs together and slide the fitting off - there may be some pressure left so you may have petrol spray out, but shouldn't be a lot. Slacken the filler first in case there's pressure in the tank. |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 12:56pm Ok, I see it at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/fuel/Fuel16VInj.pdf |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 1:34pm Thanks for that but although it's very necessary it DOESN'T help getting the head off - that's not a moan btw - hehe. Underneath the car I can see a small bolt that looks like it's bolting the inlet manifold to a bracket on the crankcase or something. Trouble is it just turns in a rubberry sort of way but doesn't come out - also there's not a nut on the top. I think this may be my problem but I can't see how to shift it. The bracket is inaccessable. I'll keep trying. Any ideas welcome. Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 1:42pm It's definitely this bolt. It's all pivoting around it, it's all that left holding the thing in. Help!! |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 2:15pm Ok it's off. Undid the bracket 1 ratchet notch at a time, very slow, now to look at it. Will let you know. Thanks Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 3:03pm Ok, gasket off and cleaned up, straight edge in all directions is fine which is good news. Here is a pic of the valves http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/The%20valves%20top%20is%20front%20cyl.jpg. The bottom one is the one with 6 bar pressure, the others are around 13 bar. There is no evidence (to my untrained eye) of any problem with the head gasket. I'm wondering about that black valve in the bottom cylinder - does that mean anything? What do I do next? I don't want to put it all back til I can see where the loss of pressure is from - it certainly doesn't look like the gasket, although I'll post a link to a pic of that in a minute. Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 3:18pm Here is the old gasket; top and bottom, of the offending 6 bar cylinder - what do you think? |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 3:21pm Sorry, here it is http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/head%20gasket%20low%20compression%20cylinder.jpg; |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 3:56pm Don’t remember reading about the low pressure, when did you take the reading, was it before or after the rad failure? Looks as though that valve’s got very hot – could just have been the first to cop it when the coolant went. Try putting the plugs in & pouring some paraffin into the chambers & see if it runs through the valves quicker on that one, but best thing is to take the valve out & have a look. Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 4:05pm I don't have any parafin but I guess meths will do. Regarding taking the valve out, how do you do that? I had a look at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engines/dohc2_3/2300ValveSeals.pdf but it had so many special tools that it put me off; is there an easier way? Thanks for all your help with this Dave! Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 10th, 2008, 4:41pm Mike I'm just going out. I don't know what tools you need is the honest answer, engines I've worked on only needed a conventional spring compressor, bit like a g–clamp with a forked end. You probably can’t use that type on deep seated springs like these. You could probably devise something, but be very careful it can be quite dangerous if it all flies apart. Google for valve spring compressor to see what’s available. Best of luck Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Scorpio_Mike on Aug 10th, 2008, 5:04pm Ebay always good for finding tools at competitive prices too. |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 10th, 2008, 5:27pm THanks! btw, this http://www.exhortations.co.uk/images/fell%20out%20of%20the%20head.jpg fell out of the head when I turned it to pour in the meths. I can't see where it came from, do you have any idea? THanks Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by scorpio_man on Aug 10th, 2008, 5:46pm on 08/10/08 at 17:27:54, Mike_Floutier wrote:
that looks like one of the collars that the rocker cover bolts go through. while you've got the head off, shine a torch on it and check for any cracks. they might look like very feint black lines. hth |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 11th, 2008, 7:01am Thanks Scorpio_Man! |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by simonsp on Aug 12th, 2008, 9:11am Hi mate where are you? |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 12th, 2008, 11:03am Chalfont St Giles, HP84DQ. Head is back on and am fitting cam shaft etc. in a minute. Radiator should arrive today so should be back on the road tomorrow. Will report progress. Thanks again evryone! Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 12th, 2008, 1:12pm Oh, there is one issue I need some advice about to do with re-assembling. The brake servo vacuum hose has this strange looking oblong box connector in the middle. When trying to disconnect it the smaller hose connection snapped. When I was at Fords they guy looked at the diagram but we couldn't see it. Does anyone know what this box connector is (ie. does it have some function other than being a connector); can I bypass it? How can I fix it? There's a little stuuby bit of connector left, I could glue it I suppose. Finally would it matter much if the joint wasn't perfect? Thanks Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 12th, 2008, 3:30pm Mike I don’t know, first thought was a filter or valve, but have just looked at mine and I think the round thing next along may be a filter. The pipe changes in size so maybe just an adaptor. Get it wrong & you won’t have servo for the brakes. If air gets in it will be un-metered air to the manifold (not going through the MAF) so likely to run badly. Can you look through it or blow through it both ways to see if anything inside? Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Tompion on Aug 12th, 2008, 3:52pm Mike Don’t know if they’re the same but it says in the Haynes Granada manual “Make sure the check valve is working correctly by blowing through the hose from the servo unit end. Air should flow in this direction, but not when blown through from the inlet manifold end.” I would imagine the valve is the larger round part nearer the servo, but only guessing. Dave |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 12th, 2008, 7:16pm Ok, I've got the head back on ok and stuck the brake servo vacuum with Araldite. It ran really rough initially but after a few goes got a bit better but by no means perfect. I may have got the valve timing out as, my marks on the chain needed to be two links off for the right hand chain to be taught. The chain may have slipped on the crankshaft sprocket or I may have got it too taught, I don't have the experience to know _DOES anyone know hat would be the effect of getting the chain 1 or 2 links off perfect; how would the engine sound? Anyway, the cylinder head issues have turned out to be a red herring as I'm still getting the overheating problem that probably blew my radiator out on Friday (which got me thinking of the head). I need to solve the overheating problem quickly as my work is picking up and my new car wont be ready to use for over a week. I'll start another thread about the overheating and come back to this one when the new car is on the road Mike |
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Title: Re: Head Gasket Replacement Post by Mike_Floutier on Aug 14th, 2008, 1:59pm I will come back to the issue of the "black" valve in due course in a week or two when the Scorp has retired and I can strip it down at leisure. However, for the sake of completeness and to provide a helpful central reference for those who follow, I would mention the following points collectively that are omitted from the Ford instructions on the site for removing and installing the cylinder head at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engines/dohc2_3/2300CylHead.pdf. This is in no way a gripe as the availability of the instructions was an invaluable resource and, in any case, most of the following points were made by other members, again who's help was invaluable. Ok, that said, before lifting off the cylinder head it is necessary to disconnect: 1. The petrol supply and return pipes - item 6 in http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/fuel/Fuel16VInj.pdf, 2. The two electrical plugs (no idea what they do) that attach to the offside of the crankcase - their wires are red and white and come from the same place as the various throttle body area sensors, and 3. The bracket on the crankcase that is bolted to the underside of the inlet manifold. This bracket is very well hidden. The 10mm bolt onto the manifold would turn but not undo. I had to unbolt the bracket itself; the top bolt of the pair you can see from below. If you have large hands like me you'd be advised to cover yourself in lard before trying it as there's not much room. Also, getting the socket on took some time and undoing the bolt was achieved one racket click at a time. I spent ages cursing myself for being so weak whilst trying to lift the head off until I discovered this bracket. Ah Dave, I see from re-reading the thread that you did mention this bolt at the time but I stupidly ignored your advice - doh! hth Mike |
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